Wiggins -Embiid and yet Kansas continues losing?

[nickagneta]

I missed the Kansas-SDSU yesterday and didn't DVR it like I usually would do(NFL playoffs were the priority yesterday) but for the fourth time in 13 games the University of Kansas basketball team lost.

So why am I writing about this? Why is this significant to anyone on Celticsblog?

Well, here's why. Joel Embiid and Andrew Wiggins are to of the top 3-5 prospects expected to come out of college basketball this spring. They have been called franchise cornerstones. They play with two other players that could possibly be drafted in next year's draft in Wayne Seldon and Perry Ellis. This Kansas team is deep in talent and have just finished playing the easiest portion of their schedule.

Yet they are 9-4. They start to open their Big 12 schedule soon and the Big 12 is loaded with top 25 teams with Kansas, Kansas State, Baylor, Iowa State, and Oklahoma State all currently ranked and Texas and Oklahoma teams that are not ranked but are extremely good.

So my question is should a bad possible win loss season in Kansas reflect upon the players playing there and show a possibility of their players to raise them to the greatness that they supposedly have in them? Will a bad win loss season at Kansas effect their draft stock. Does the inability to win at the college level say anything about the players on that team?

Now of course the easy answer is its the coach's fault and in this case, that's a pretty good retort as Bill Self can coach college defense as well as anyone but his offensive system stinks, imho. Another good retort would be that teams loaded with freshmen and rely heavily upon them lose a lot. Kentucky 2012 was an aberration not the norm. Expecting a freshmen laden team to win so much is expecting too much.

Or does this indeed speak some about the players on this team and will teams take this into consideration when drafting?

I happen to think you scout a player based on their abilities not their stats and their mental abilities are included. With that said if the players don't look like leaders, don't play hungry, if they appear okay with losing, that would factor into my evaluation of them.

Of course, Kansas could easily run the table and make this whole post moot, but what do you guys think. I am pretty sure Paul Pierce's stock dropped in the year he was drafted for reasons discussed here so could it happen again and allow a superstar to drop into the Celtics lap if they are drafting somewhere between 7 and 10?

[TwinTower14]

It's pretty simple in College - you can't win without an elite guard play.  Their guard play has been pretty bad.  Look at the last five title winners....

Louisville - Russ Smith
Kentucky - Lamb, Teague and ( Davis helps...lol )
UConn - Kemba
Duke - Scheyer and Nolan Smith
UNC - Ty Lawson
Kansas - Mario Chalmers

Kansas has 3 or 4 first round picks in their line-up but very weak at PG and it can really get exposed in college...

[Fafnir]

I don't think it'll effect their draft stocks much at all. Kansas State was 21-12 with Beasley.

Athletic talent and potential dictate things much much more than in the 90s. Especially with players coming out so young.

[nickagneta]

I don't think it'll effect their draft stocks much at all. Kansas State was 21-12 with Beasley.

Athletic talent and potential dictate things much much more than in the 90s. Especially with players coming out so young.

Your Beasley example makes me think maybe the Heat should have taken Beasley's attitude toward losing and an inability to raise his team up into consideration.

But I agree it shouldn't and probably won't affect their overall value but I would love to sit in on some of the interviews of Wiggins, Embiid, and Seldon and see what they say when teams ask them questions about such things.

[SHAQATTACK]

Yup.....I hope everybody that matters thinks they are overrated .......like Pierce was

They drop to 6 - 9 picks ..

DA won't hesitate  to take either.

[Mr October]

Their record has me worried as well. These 2 players are still very raw, and that comes with significant risk. I will be curious to see how they are playing in the second half of the season and in the ncaa tourney before making a judgement call on them.

But i think you are raising a legit flag for concern here.

Here are my best excuses at the moment:

Big men have a harder time effecting the game on offense in college basketball as compared to the nba, since college ball is super dominant by scoring guards. Plus Embiid has only been playing bball for 2 years. His defensive fundamentals need work still for sure.

Wiggins is a little more of an enigma. He has the tools it appears to take over games, yet he doesn't. I am not sure how much of that come from him versus the team game philosophy of  Kansas. Also wiggins does remind me a lot of Tracy Mcgrady in skill and body type, and like Mcgrady he might take a few years to really come into his own.

Time will tell.

[fairweatherfan]

Duke is 11-3, including an L to Kansas, with Parker and a lot more veteran support than the Jayhawks. 

Kentucky is 10-3 with - on paper - one of the greatest recruiting classes in history, including likely top-5 guy Randle.

I don't think you can put too much stock in these prospects' team records.  I'm sure scouts won't.

[Atzar]

They should share the blame, of course.  But it won't affect their draft stock. 

Wiggins hasn't learned to deal with all the attention on offense.  When he gets the ball, he sometimes has one man trying to force him left into two help defenders.  It leaves a jumpshot as his only shot, which isn't his strength yet, and while he's unselfish I don't think he has the court vision (yet?) to hit teammates left open by the overhelping defense.  If he could pass well enough to beat the overplay, then they couldn't do it as freely and he'd have more room to work. 

And I agree, Self isn't helping things because it should be pretty easy to tailor an offense around the massive attention Wiggins gets - or just get them in transition and let Wiggins be the best athlete in college basketball.  Either one would work. 


Embiid's problem is easy - he can't stay on the court.  3.5 fouls in 21 minutes per game (to wit; forgive me if I'm a little off, going on memory here).  You obviously want him on the court a lot more. 

Now, in a sense I don't think those fouls are necessarily a bad thing.  Young, raw bigs trying to play defense foul a lot - that's just how it is.  Takes them a long time to learn how to impact the game defensively without fouling.  If they aren't fouling, chances are good that they aren't playing much defense.  So here you have a young big man new to the game who is trying to be the dominant two-way player he has the potential to be, and while the effort is there the experience hasn't caught up with him yet.  Again, not a bad thing as far as Embiid's future is concerned - it's just a matter of time in my opinion. 

Just some thoughts.  I think both players still go in the top 3, and each has a reasonable argument to going first overall even. 

[PaulAllen]

Embiid only plays around 20 minutes per game.. I dont get this.. having him off the court makes no sense..

[TwinTower14]

I am not concerned about Embiid at all, every game I have watched him he seems to be progressing and I do think he will be the number 1 pick in June.  Wiggins, to me looks like the same player he was in high school?  I think Wiggins is 4th or 5th now if the draft was today? what do you think?

[saltlover]

The biggest reason this could impact them is if they lose early in the tournament.  If Parker and Randle get to go far in March with their teams, and Kansas gets bounced in their first game, it could cause Wiggins to slide a bit (not far, but to the third small forward spot).  Embiid is widely seen as the best center, so I doubt he is impacted, unless Kansas is losing because he is in fact not playing well, or is hurt.    It's more likely the other Kansas draft prospects who would take the beating, however, since the blame has to be put somewhere.  I don't think Kansas is in any danger of missing the tournament.  They've played a pretty difficult schedule, have some quality wins, and San Diego State is a top 20 team.

[CoachBo]

Lots of egos on that team, plus they don't defend at all.

It's such a mess that Self - who's noted for his cool - is absolutely freaking out, during games and in post-game pressers.

[Eddie20]

I believe Kansas has the hardest schedule in the country and they went nearly an entire month without having a home game (11/22 - 12/21). Despite this, they're still 9-4. Much ado about nothing, really.

[TwinTower14]

Lots of egos on that team, plus they don't defend at all.

It's such a mess that Self - who's noted for his cool - is absolutely freaking out, during games and in post-game pressers.

Yup - I really feel that Wiggins did himself a disservice by going there.  Should have went and played with a solid PG like Paige at UNC and Harrison Twin at Kentucky...he needs someone to get him the ball in his spots...Kansas is solid but their PG play is pathetic and the main reason why they are struggling.

[Jailan34]

It's an interesting point, and while they are under preforming I still wouldn't pass up on either if given the chance to draft. I have been looking up some scouting videos for Embiid and he just really seems like a great fit for the Celtic's in my opinion.

Athletic, developing post game, fluid movement, and huge defensive potential. I'd draft him over Wiggins.