is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?

[KGs Knee]

Green is certainly a better defender.

Not true. Hayward is a great shot blocker at the 2 and and improving man to man defender.

I dunno, Green's career BLK% is higher, if barely, and from what I've seen, he's a better help defender and iso defender. Admittedly I haven't watched too much of Hayward.

For what it's worth, Green's ranked 85th by Synergy based on all defense plays, Hayward's ranked 289th.

Hayward is one of the poorer defenders in the league.  Seems a bit ridiculous to claim he is on Green's level, who is by no means 'elite' himself.

[scaryjerry]

Nope

[alecmcafee]

Hayward is a much better player. The biggest difference is his consistent effort and toughness, as well as the fact that he makes his teammates better, Green does not.

[Jailan34]

No.

Hayward is scoring just a little more points per game than Green right now (16.8 vs 15., but he's not doing it as efficiently as Green.

Green has the slight edge in points-per-minute, scoring 16.9 per 36 to 16.4 for Hayward.  But more compelling is that Green is doing it far more efficiently, with fewer shots and touches.

Hayward is taking just under 15 shots per 36, and having to touch the ball almost 75 times per game in order to maintain that scoring output.

Green is taking just over 13 shots per 36 and touching the ball under 45 times per game, yet producing the same point production.

Basically, we are able to get the same production from Green that Hayward is providing, without having to make Green the focus of our offense.   If we want to focus the offense around a Wing, then we should just increase the number of touches / plays called for Green.

If you stick Hayward into this offense, and drop his USG% down from being involved in 1/4 of all plays down to the 1/5 that we utilize Green, then his numbers would drop.

Hayward touches the ball so much more because hes one of his teams primary playmakers as well as scorers. Hayward averages 5 assists while green averages 1.6, I think Hayward is the more complete and better player.

Again, though, it is reasonable to expect that if Green handled the ball anywhere near as often as Hayward does, that his assist numbers would go up along with his point production.   

Hayward is touching the ball some 50-60% more often than Green.   If Green were handling the ball that much more, his assist numbers would likely rise to around 3 or so.  'Still less than Hayward, but that would be in conjunction with an increased point production.

Green has shown, so far, that his efficiency does not drop with increased USG.  In the 13 games last Spring and this Fall that Green has gotten at least 16 shots, he has averaged 22.8 points (on an average of 17.6 FGA in those games), maintaining a fat 1.3 points per shot scoring efficiency.   Overall for last year and so far this year, he has scored 1.29 points per FGA.   Not Kevin Durant (a ridiculous 1.5 points per shot!), but still extremely efficient.

Conversely, if you drop Hayward into a role where he got ~60% of his current touches, his assist and point production are going to go down.

I should note, that in prior seasons, Hayward was more efficient than he has been this year.  Last year, at much more modest usage (similar to Green's usage rates this year), he was at a similar ~1.3 points per shot.   This year, with increased USG and taking more shots, his efficiency has gone down significantly to about 1.2 points per shot.   The fall-off is so far largely due to a big drop-off in his 3PT%.

What you say could very well be true in regard to if Green touched the ball more or had a higher usage his numbers would go up.

But that's Jeff Green and has been his whole career "if green just got more touches" or "if green shot more" and he never has shown the drive to take his game to the next level. This team should have been Jeff's this year, he has all the tools to be a number one option but too often we see him relax or coast for entire quarters. We've seen Sullinger step in and be more aggressive and demand the ball on the block more than green has looked for his shot.

That is why I say Hayward is a better player, his team had a leadership void and he's stepped up to lead his team in points and assists. Green's team had a similar situation, and he constantly defers to other players. Even if Hayward is in a slump right now, I'd still take him in a heartbeat over Green because Hayward WANTS to lead a team and take his game to the next level and Green doesn't.

[MVPPierceNoJoke]

Hayward is the better player IMO. Hayward has shown that when he is having a bad scoring game he can still be a huge positive for his team. Green  is the better scorer, however we all know how inconsistent he is with the scoring and when he isn't being an aggressive scorer he has a hard time being a difference maker.

[D.o.s.]

No.

Hayward is scoring just a little more points per game than Green right now (16.8 vs 15., but he's not doing it as efficiently as Green.

Green has the slight edge in points-per-minute, scoring 16.9 per 36 to 16.4 for Hayward.  But more compelling is that Green is doing it far more efficiently, with fewer shots and touches.

Hayward is taking just under 15 shots per 36, and having to touch the ball almost 75 times per game in order to maintain that scoring output.

Green is taking just over 13 shots per 36 and touching the ball under 45 times per game, yet producing the same point production.

Basically, we are able to get the same production from Green that Hayward is providing, without having to make Green the focus of our offense.   If we want to focus the offense around a Wing, then we should just increase the number of touches / plays called for Green.

If you stick Hayward into this offense, and drop his USG% down from being involved in 1/4 of all plays down to the 1/5 that we utilize Green, then his numbers would drop.

Hayward touches the ball so much more because hes one of his teams primary playmakers as well as scorers. Hayward averages 5 assists while green averages 1.6, I think Hayward is the more complete and better player.

Again, though, it is reasonable to expect that if Green handled the ball anywhere near as often as Hayward does, that his assist numbers would go up along with his point production.   

Hayward is touching the ball some 50-60% more often than Green.   If Green were handling the ball that much more, his assist numbers would likely rise to around 3 or so.  'Still less than Hayward, but that would be in conjunction with an increased point production.

Green has shown, so far, that his efficiency does not drop with increased USG.  In the 13 games last Spring and this Fall that Green has gotten at least 16 shots, he has averaged 22.8 points (on an average of 17.6 FGA in those games), maintaining a fat 1.3 points per shot scoring efficiency.   Overall for last year and so far this year, he has scored 1.29 points per FGA.   Not Kevin Durant (a ridiculous 1.5 points per shot!), but still extremely efficient.

Conversely, if you drop Hayward into a role where he got ~60% of his current touches, his assist and point production are going to go down.

I should note, that in prior seasons, Hayward was more efficient than he has been this year.  Last year, at much more modest usage (similar to Green's usage rates this year), he was at a similar ~1.3 points per shot.   This year, with increased USG and taking more shots, his efficiency has gone down significantly to about 1.2 points per shot.   The fall-off is so far largely due to a big drop-off in his 3PT%.

What you say could very well be true in regard to if Green touched the ball more or had a higher usage his numbers would go up.

But that's Jeff Green and has been his whole career "if green just got more touches" or "if green shot more" and he never has shown the drive to take his game to the next level. This team should have been Jeff's this year, he has all the tools to be a number one option but too often we see him relax or coast for entire quarters. We've seen Sullinger step in and be more aggressive and demand the ball on the block more than green has looked for his shot.

That is why I say Hayward is a better player, his team had a leadership void and he's stepped up to lead his team in points and assists. Green's team had a similar situation, and he constantly defers to other players. Even if Hayward is in a slump right now, I'd still take him in a heartbeat over Green because Hayward WANTS to lead a team and take his game to the next level and Green doesn't.

You show a remarkable amount of insight into the minds of Jeff Green and Gordon Hayward, and I'm curious as to how you found them in conversation. Or even in passing.

[erisred]

I'd be fine with Hayward at the 2 next year and Green at the 3.  I think they'd compliment each other nicely.  I also don't think Hayward would struggle with Rondo -- he plays on the ball a lot, but it's not like the Jazz have had other good options to run the offense through in the last couple years. I'd bet you'd see Hayward's scoring stay the same or rise with Rondo while putting up fewer shots.

Yep, that's what I'd have written if you hadn't done it first!

[mmmmm]

What you say could very well be true in regard to if Green touched the ball more or had a higher usage his numbers would go up.

But that's Jeff Green and has been his whole career "if green just got more touches" or "if green shot more" and he never has shown the drive to take his game to the next level. This team should have been Jeff's this year, he has all the tools to be a number one option but too often we see him relax or coast for entire quarters. We've seen Sullinger step in and be more aggressive and demand the ball on the block more than green has looked for his shot.

That is why I say Hayward is a better player, his team had a leadership void and he's stepped up to lead his team in points and assists. Green's team had a similar situation, and he constantly defers to other players. Even if Hayward is in a slump right now, I'd still take him in a heartbeat over Green because Hayward WANTS to lead a team and take his game to the next level and Green doesn't.

I'm sorry. But speak for yourself.  "You" may think you "see" that.  "We" see different things.

Sully is getting the ball because feeding the ball into the post is the first option on all our half court plays, as it should be.   I actually have zero problem with Sully getting the ball in the post.  He AND Green both should be getting more touches.  Green is NOT getting the ball because our guards are incapable of reading and going to a second option (when the first is taken away by the defense) other than chucking a shot up from 16 feet.

This isn't about 'aggressiveness' or 'demanding the ball'.  I am not a mind reader but as far as I can tell, none of that is going on and nor should it be.   This is about the offense being executed on the floor and the different roles different players fill.

It's wonderful that you have the ability to read minds and tell what Hayward "WANTS" and what Green doesn't want.   Maybe you can send them Christmas presents?

[Spicoli]

I would rather have the guy who has a chance of checking LeBron James. That guy is Jeff Green.

[Jailan34]

What you say could very well be true in regard to if Green touched the ball more or had a higher usage his numbers would go up.

But that's Jeff Green and has been his whole career "if green just got more touches" or "if green shot more" and he never has shown the drive to take his game to the next level. This team should have been Jeff's this year, he has all the tools to be a number one option but too often we see him relax or coast for entire quarters. We've seen Sullinger step in and be more aggressive and demand the ball on the block more than green has looked for his shot.

That is why I say Hayward is a better player, his team had a leadership void and he's stepped up to lead his team in points and assists. Green's team had a similar situation, and he constantly defers to other players. Even if Hayward is in a slump right now, I'd still take him in a heartbeat over Green because Hayward WANTS to lead a team and take his game to the next level and Green doesn't.

I'm sorry. But speak for yourself.  "You" may think you "see" that.  "We" see different things.

Sully is getting the ball because feeding the ball into the post is the first option on all our half court plays, as it should be.   I actually have zero problem with Sully getting the ball in the post.  He AND Green both should be getting more touches.  Green is NOT getting the ball because our guards are incapable of reading and going to a second option (when the first is taken away by the defense) other than chucking a shot up from 16 feet.

This isn't about 'aggressiveness' or 'demanding the ball'.  I am not a mind reader but as far as I can tell, none of that is going on and nor should it be.   This is about the offense being executed on the floor and the different roles different players fill.

It's wonderful that you have the ability to read minds and tell what Hayward "WANTS" and what Green doesn't want.   Maybe you can send them Christmas presents?

So in those two games where Green had a total of six points was all a product of our guards not getting him the ball?

I can tell Hayward wants to lead a team by his play, I don't need to read his mind. He hustles, creates offense for others as well as himself and has become his teams best player. Green creates practically no offense for anyone else and is content to stand around the three point line waiting for someone to hand him the ball. This was supposed to be his year to be the man on this team, before the year started everyone was saying how he will easily average 20 a game, and hes right where he always is.

I'm not a Green hater, I see his physical tools and I've seen the games where he does it all, but I've more games where hes content being just another average scorer.

We do see very different games.

[Jailan34]

I would rather have the guy who has a chance of checking LeBron James. That guy is Jeff Green.

That's a good point, despite his lackluster offensive season so far from what I've seen of his play his defense looks solid, and he's certainly more athletic than Hayward and has the ability to keep up with wings better.

I just wish if Green isn't going to score as much as I'd hoped he would that he'd try to give the team something else, create for others or put more effort into rebounding.

[Celtics4ever]

I would not mind if Hayward gave us a deal to play with Stevens.   Him at SG and Green at SF would be neat.  AB could come off bench as combo defensive stopper which I think is his true niche.   We have Rondo and Sully is a decent PF.   All we need is a top notch center to have a good albeit not great team.

[Spicoli]

I would rather have the guy who has a chance of checking LeBron James. That guy is Jeff Green.

That's a good point, despite his lackluster offensive season so far from what I've seen of his play his defense looks solid, and he's certainly more athletic than Hayward and has the ability to keep up with wings better.

I just wish if Green isn't going to score as much as I'd hoped he would that he'd try to give the team something else, create for others or put more effort into rebounding.

I also wish that Green would bring something else to the table besides the occasional scoring outburst, but as long as LeBron James plays in the Eastern Conference Jeff Green needs to be on the roster. He has played LeBron as evenly as anybody can play him, during their last 3 meetings.

[Jailan34]

I would rather have the guy who has a chance of checking LeBron James. That guy is Jeff Green.

That's a good point, despite his lackluster offensive season so far from what I've seen of his play his defense looks solid, and he's certainly more athletic than Hayward and has the ability to keep up with wings better.

I just wish if Green isn't going to score as much as I'd hoped he would that he'd try to give the team something else, create for others or put more effort into rebounding.

I also wish that Green would bring something else to the table besides the occasional scoring outburst, but as long as LeBron James plays in the Eastern Conference Jeff Green needs to be on the roster. He has played LeBron as evenly as anybody can play him, during their last 3 meetings.

I don't disagree, I think Green would make the perfect 6th man and defender off the bench, his feast or famine game wouldn't have such a large impact on our overall offense then.

[boscel33]

i'd take hayward over green.  when the trade for green was made, i understood it, just did not agree.  i thought i might warm to it but am not!