Author Topic: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?  (Read 23416 times)

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Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2013, 05:28:49 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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NO



but I would trade about six Celtics for NOAH

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2013, 05:33:57 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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You say that trades are a way to get a championship, I agree fair point. But to make trades you need assets, assets can either be really young high potential players, we have maybe one in sullinger. Or assets can be picks, right now our picks from the nets are uncertain, but in all probability wont be high enough to trade for a great player on their own.

THAT is why we need to tank to get the best chance to get as high a pick as possible so we can either use the pick to pick our next star, or trade for one. Other gm's wont be giving up the likes of anthony davis or demarcus cousins or any other promising young star big for AB and the 10th pick overall.

Tanking gives us two routes out of three to rebuilding a team, through trades and the draft. Winning the 8th seed keeps us in a perpetual state of mediocrity.

Coming close to making the playoffs makes the team more likely to be able to add good free agents (perhaps through a sign-and-trade) because players tend to prefer joining winners if they are not seeking simply to maximize their payday.

If you're trading to add a star, it's not going to be for a young player.  Most likely, it will be a player who is at least as old as Rondo and probably a few years older.

The lottery means you can have still get a top pick without being anywhere near the worst team.  (See: Rose, Derrick)  I'd probably only consider being on board with tanking if the value from being at the bottom is so great that you would trade Sullinger for nothing if it would guarantee a bottom five record.

Perhaps the best route to keeping all options is to just barely miss the playoffs the way Houston did for a few years.
And that might be exactly where this team is heading, at least this season. I think the Nets will get better than they have shown and other teams will begin to gel too as the season goes on.

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2013, 07:24:28 PM »

Offline gpap

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You say that trades are a way to get a championship, I agree fair point. But to make trades you need assets, assets can either be really young high potential players, we have maybe one in sullinger. Or assets can be picks, right now our picks from the nets are uncertain, but in all probability wont be high enough to trade for a great player on their own.

THAT is why we need to tank to get the best chance to get as high a pick as possible so we can either use the pick to pick our next star, or trade for one. Other gm's wont be giving up the likes of anthony davis or demarcus cousins or any other promising young star big for AB and the 10th pick overall.

Tanking gives us two routes out of three to rebuilding a team, through trades and the draft. Winning the 8th seed keeps us in a perpetual state of mediocrity.

Coming close to making the playoffs makes the team more likely to be able to add good free agents (perhaps through a sign-and-trade) because players tend to prefer joining winners if they are not seeking simply to maximize their payday.

If you're trading to add a star, it's not going to be for a young player.  Most likely, it will be a player who is at least as old as Rondo and probably a few years older.

The lottery means you can have still get a top pick without being anywhere near the worst team.  (See: Rose, Derrick)  I'd probably only consider being on board with tanking if the value from being at the bottom is so great that you would trade Sullinger for nothing if it would guarantee a bottom five record.

Perhaps the best route to keeping all options is to just barely miss the playoffs the way Houston did for a few years.

See, for me I think that's the worse position you could be in.

Whether you're a playoff team or you're headed for the lottery, either way your gaining something (be it a playoff berth or a possible top pick.)

Missing the playoffs and just missing out on the top 10 in the draft (at least to me) is being in no man's land.

I understand the Indiana Pacers may be the exception to the rule as I know a lot of their draft picks like Hibbert and George were middle of the road, but that's a very rare case.

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2013, 07:37:30 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Nope.

D Rose is a great player (and will be great again once he returns).

But Rajon Rondo is special, to me....I've seen him do too many great things to trade him for anyone.

Here's "just" one of those plays:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rup5V8Jxz9k

As the now coach of the Golden State Warriors, Mark Jackson (a very good PG in his own days) stated:

"This is Larry Bird-Like"....

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2013, 07:40:56 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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THAT is why we need to tank to get the best chance to get as high a pick as possible so we can either use the pick to pick our next star, or trade for one. Other gm's wont be giving up the likes of anthony davis or demarcus cousins or any other promising young star big for AB and the 10th pick overall.

Tanking gives us two routes out of three to rebuilding a team, through trades and the draft. Winning the 8th seed keeps us in a perpetual state of mediocrity.

Well..

No GM in his right mind is going to trade an Anthony Davis or a Demarcus Cousins for ANY 'potential'  top-10 pick prior to the lottery being set.   And even after it is set, they are not likely to.  MAYBE for the guaranteed #1 overall - depending on how 'sure thing' Wiggens (Parker?) look at the time of the draft.

Players like Davis and Cousins are realized bets.  They have proven they can, indeed play in the NBA at a high level and thus have known high value.   You don't exchange that for the risk that a draft pick entails.   Too many 'sure thing' picks have turned into busts.

'Tanking' is a dubious strategy.  In fact, calling it a 'strategy' is giving it too much credit.  It is a double roll of the dice.   Once on the lottery balls and again on the pick itself.

While it is definitely a truism that almost every single title team in the last 30 years has had at least one player who was drafted in the top 5, it is also true that only a tiny handful of those players won the title on the team that drafted them.  Especially since the introduction of the weighted lottery system.

In fact, other than the Spurs, no team has won it all behind a player they drafted themselves with their own top 4 pick.   Okay, Dallas won it in 2011 'with' Jason Kidd - who they indeed picked #2 way back in 1993...

This tells you that the teams that won with that talent mostly acquired it via trade or free agency.

Smart GMs, like any executives, run their business with factors they can control.   You can't control the lottery balls and even top picks have big error bars of uncertainty around them. 

Oden was taken right before Durant.
Darko was taken between Lebron and Carmelo.

A more deterministic model is to accumulate and develop tradable assets (players, contracts and future picks) and then leverage them for top 3 talent that was drafted by other teams - because that talent will have already shown whether it is a 'bust' or not.

Or, alternatively, use the picks of other, really bad teams to augment an already solid roster without having to be bad yourself.  This is a tried-and-true Red strategy.   Danny has acquired quite a few picks already.  Now, certainly not all those Nets & Clippers picks look like they will be very high.  But a couple of them look promising.   The Nets look headed for a financial brick wall in 2016 that will take some tremendous shenanigans to avoid.

And Danny can trade others in deals and end up with other picks for teams that look like a better 'bet' to finish poorly in those future years.  It is literally possible to look at the contract horizons of teams and make reasonable projections on how their fortunes might fair a few years down the road.

The point is, there is no reason to assume that the only way to 'become extemely good' is to 'be extremely bad'.   Lots of title teams have managed to get there without having a single sub-30 win season in the prior 5 or so years before they got there.


NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2013, 07:43:32 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Quote
Firstly inresponse to the "tanking" fans, I want you to answer this for me.  In the past 10 years, out of all the team's who have received a top 3 pick in the nba draft, how many of those teams have made it to the NBA finals, or even the conference finals, since that pick while still having that player a signiglfocant part of their roster?

2013: Both teams had top 5 picks playing serious roles
2012: Both teams
2011: 1 team
2010: 0
2009: 1 team
2008: 0
2007: 2 teams
2006: 1 team
2005: 1 team
2004: 0 teams

50% of teams had a top-5 pick they drafted be their best or second best player.

And, if you expand that to top-10 pick, it goes to every single year except the Detroit-Lakers series at least 1 team had a top-10 pick they drafted as their best or second best player.

I didn't say top 5, I said top three.

I also didn't ask how many of the teams that made the finals / conf finals had top 3 picks, I asked how many of the teams that had top 3 picks made the finals or conf finals.

What I'm getting at is every year there are three teams who get to draft in the top 3.  One of those three teams might draft a player who becomes elite, or at least an All Star, and helps lead that team into contension.  The other two probably don't.  The rare exception is the LeBron Draft where two of the top three picks became elite, but even then one of those guys became a dud.

My point is that getting a top three pick doesn't guarantee you a future elite player.  Sometimes you get a Darko Milicic - guy who shows all the promise but never becomes anything at the NBA level.  Sometimes you get a Roy or Oden, who shows promise but never plays more than two seasons.  It's a lottery, that's why they call it the lottery.  To intentionally tank for the hope of getting a top 3 pick is a major risk. There are teams out there (e.g. Bobcats) who get high picks every season, yet still stink.

To become a contender based on the draft requires a smart GM LOT of luck.  I dont see the Bobcats trading all their valuable draft picks for an elite superstars.  Their high picks all turned out role players and are worth not much at all as trade assets.

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2013, 07:56:04 PM »

Offline moiso

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Tanking is not a major risk unless you have something to lose.  And you don't need to be all that lucky to score a top 6 pick.  Top 3 isn't a requirement in this draft.

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2013, 08:02:24 PM »

Offline moiso

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This draft looks similar to the Lebron draft in terms of depth of great talent.  Only Dumars screwed that draft up.  I'm sure the teams who drafted Lebron, Carmelo, Wade and Bosh were all pretty happy with their "luck" because it wasn't luck.  Just for this year having the gm "tank" looks like the soundest strategy for extremely low talent teams like the Celtics.

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2013, 08:26:01 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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...not anymore

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2013, 08:34:07 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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This draft looks similar to the Lebron draft in terms of depth of great talent.  Only Dumars screwed that draft up.  I'm sure the teams who drafted Lebron, Carmelo, Wade and Bosh were all pretty happy with their "luck" because it wasn't luck.  Just for this year having the gm "tank" looks like the soundest strategy for extremely low talent teams like the Celtics.

Really? Because neither Cleveland, Toronto nor Denver are looking like contenders right now...

Miami is the only one of those rings with a title, and that's only because three of the aforementioned stars happened to be best buddies and made dodgy dealings to join forces there...

The only team since that time that's been a consistent contender has been the Thunder, abd they had to pick up about five good picks (Durant, Green, Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka) to get the success they've had.

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2013, 08:50:16 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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You say that trades are a way to get a championship, I agree fair point. But to make trades you need assets, assets can either be really young high potential players, we have maybe one in sullinger. Or assets can be picks, right now our picks from the nets are uncertain, but in all probability wont be high enough to trade for a great player on their own.

THAT is why we need to tank to get the best chance to get as high a pick as possible so we can either use the pick to pick our next star, or trade for one. Other gm's wont be giving up the likes of anthony davis or demarcus cousins or any other promising young star big for AB and the 10th pick overall.

Tanking gives us two routes out of three to rebuilding a team, through trades and the draft. Winning the 8th seed keeps us in a perpetual state of mediocrity.

Coming close to making the playoffs makes the team more likely to be able to add good free agents (perhaps through a sign-and-trade) because players tend to prefer joining winners if they are not seeking simply to maximize their payday.

If you're trading to add a star, it's not going to be for a young player.  Most likely, it will be a player who is at least as old as Rondo and probably a few years older.

The lottery means you can have still get a top pick without being anywhere near the worst team.  (See: Rose, Derrick)  I'd probably only consider being on board with tanking if the value from being at the bottom is so great that you would trade Sullinger for nothing if it would guarantee a bottom five record.

Perhaps the best route to keeping all options is to just barely miss the playoffs the way Houston did for a few years.

See, for me I think that's the worse position you could be in.

Whether you're a playoff team or you're headed for the lottery, either way your gaining something (be it a playoff berth or a possible top pick.)

Missing the playoffs and just missing out on the top 10 in the draft (at least to me) is being in no man's land.

I understand the Indiana Pacers may be the exception to the rule as I know a lot of their draft picks like Hibbert and George were middle of the road, but that's a very rare case.

It's no man's land if you have a veteran core with a bunch of long-term contracts and no likely way to improve, especially if you've traded away draft picks.  It's not no man's land if a lot of your value is tied up in young players with upside and you have a lot of draft picks which you can use to improve your team, whether with young players you select or with players you trade for using those picks.

There's a difference between hitting the ceiling of your potential at being a fringe playoff team and starting out at being a fringe playoff team and having ways to add multiple significant players to your team.

"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2013, 09:25:12 PM »

Offline moiso

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This draft looks similar to the Lebron draft in terms of depth of great talent.  Only Dumars screwed that draft up.  I'm sure the teams who drafted Lebron, Carmelo, Wade and Bosh were all pretty happy with their "luck" because it wasn't luck.  Just for this year having the gm "tank" looks like the soundest strategy for extremely low talent teams like the Celtics.

Really? Because neither Cleveland, Toronto nor Denver are looking like contenders right now...

Miami is the only one of those rings with a title, and that's only because three of the aforementioned stars happened to be best buddies and made dodgy dealings to join forces there...

The only team since that time that's been a consistent contender has been the Thunder, abd they had to pick up about five good picks (Durant, Green, Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka) to get the success they've had.
Are you saying that those teams you listed are currently bad so they may as well have drafted stiffs in that draft?  A great player is an asset to any team if the gm has a clue.

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2013, 09:33:30 PM »

Offline ssspence

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You say that trades are a way to get a championship, I agree fair point. But to make trades you need assets, assets can either be really young high potential players, we have maybe one in sullinger. Or assets can be picks, right now our picks from the nets are uncertain, but in all probability wont be high enough to trade for a great player on their own.

THAT is why we need to tank to get the best chance to get as high a pick as possible so we can either use the pick to pick our next star, or trade for one. Other gm's wont be giving up the likes of anthony davis or demarcus cousins or any other promising young star big for AB and the 10th pick overall.

Tanking gives us two routes out of three to rebuilding a team, through trades and the draft. Winning the 8th seed keeps us in a perpetual state of mediocrity.

Coming close to making the playoffs makes the team more likely to be able to add good free agents (perhaps through a sign-and-trade) because players tend to prefer joining winners if they are not seeking simply to maximize their payday.

If you're trading to add a star, it's not going to be for a young player.  Most likely, it will be a player who is at least as old as Rondo and probably a few years older.

The lottery means you can have still get a top pick without being anywhere near the worst team.  (See: Rose, Derrick)  I'd probably only consider being on board with tanking if the value from being at the bottom is so great that you would trade Sullinger for nothing if it would guarantee a bottom five record.

Perhaps the best route to keeping all options is to just barely miss the playoffs the way Houston did for a few years.

See, for me I think that's the worse position you could be in.

Whether you're a playoff team or you're headed for the lottery, either way your gaining something (be it a playoff berth or a possible top pick.)

Missing the playoffs and just missing out on the top 10 in the draft (at least to me) is being in no man's land.

I understand the Indiana Pacers may be the exception to the rule as I know a lot of their draft picks like Hibbert and George were middle of the road, but that's a very rare case.

It's no man's land if you have a veteran core with a bunch of long-term contracts and no likely way to improve, especially if you've traded away draft picks.  It's not no man's land if a lot of your value is tied up in young players with upside and you have a lot of draft picks which you can use to improve your team, whether with young players you select or with players you trade for using those picks.

There's a difference between hitting the ceiling of your potential at being a fringe playoff team and starting out at being a fringe playoff team and having ways to add multiple significant players to your team.

What does any of this quote-over-quote really have to do with the question asked?
Mike

(My name is not Mike)

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2013, 02:36:58 AM »

Offline Jailan34

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You say that trades are a way to get a championship, I agree fair point. But to make trades you need assets, assets can either be really young high potential players, we have maybe one in sullinger. Or assets can be picks, right now our picks from the nets are uncertain, but in all probability wont be high enough to trade for a great player on their own.

THAT is why we need to tank to get the best chance to get as high a pick as possible so we can either use the pick to pick our next star, or trade for one. Other gm's wont be giving up the likes of anthony davis or demarcus cousins or any other promising young star big for AB and the 10th pick overall.

Tanking gives us two routes out of three to rebuilding a team, through trades and the draft. Winning the 8th seed keeps us in a perpetual state of mediocrity.

Coming close to making the playoffs makes the team more likely to be able to add good free agents (perhaps through a sign-and-trade) because players tend to prefer joining winners if they are not seeking simply to maximize their payday.

If you're trading to add a star, it's not going to be for a young player.  Most likely, it will be a player who is at least as old as Rondo and probably a few years older.

The lottery means you can have still get a top pick without being anywhere near the worst team.  (See: Rose, Derrick)  I'd probably only consider being on board with tanking if the value from being at the bottom is so great that you would trade Sullinger for nothing if it would guarantee a bottom five record.

Perhaps the best route to keeping all options is to just barely miss the playoffs the way Houston did for a few years.

Houston is a major city where free agents would like to play, Boston has not ever signed a marquee free agent, ever. We can sign mid level players like Jason Terry but even david west turned down coming to boston for another team and that was when we were legit title contenders.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Re: Strictly Hypothetical: Would You Deal Rondo for Rose?
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2013, 03:12:40 AM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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i love how you all in depth
this is a blog and we need people
to express why they feel the way they do
but just like bonnie and clyde
and the titanic
we know whats gonna happen
and we all know the answer too
this question

*sippin*

and Happy Thanksgiving!