Is Rose the most overrated MVP in league history?

[LarBrd33]

On May 25, 2011, I said on this forum:

I said it before the playoffs and I'm going to say it again...

I think we'll probably look back on Derrick Rose once winning the MVP as an ultimate "W.t.f"?... when did that happen?!" moment.  Don't get me wrong... he's a really good player, but maybe a bit overrated. He could end up having a Steve Francis career and I wouldn't be shocked.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=46830.msg1011203#msg1011203

You realize that the season Rose won the MVP, he wasn't even a top 10 player statistically.  The best player in the league was clearly LeBron James, but nobody was willing to give it to him, because it was his first year in Miami.  Bottom line:  LeBron got robbed.

Derrick's numbers that season:

25 points, 7.7 assists, 4.1 rebounds, 1 steal on 45%/33%/86%

If you ask me... LeBron (obviously), Durant and Dwight all had better seasons than him.  You could have argued a few others.

In his defense, that strong Chicago team won 62 games and made it to the ECF (where they were promptly destroyed by LeBron's Heat)... but Chicago's success had more to do with Tom Thib and a league-best defense.  They had taken the mantle of "best defensive team in the league" from the Celtics. Even without Rose, the Bulls have proved to remain a solid defensive team capable of winning 45-50 games a season.


It appears Rose once again will miss the rest of the season.  He was pretty dreadful in the 10 games he did manage to play. 

Look, say this kid is injury plagued the rest of his career.  The narrative will be that injuries prevented him from having a hall-of-fame career.  I say that's nonsense.  As far as I can tell, he's the most overrated MVP in the history of the league.  Injuries or not, I had this guy pegged as overrated.   I mentioned Steve Francis as a comparison.   For my money, Francis was better...   Francis at least had 6 solid seasons where he averaged 21 points, 7 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 2 steals on 43%35%/80%.   Rose so far has only managed 3 seasons of quality basketball.  Francis, unfortunately, was never surrounded with the level of talent that Rose had back in his prime.   

Was there ever a least deserving MVP?  Where do you see his career going from here?

[manl_lui]

I do not think he is overrated. Derrick Rose when healthy is definitely top 3 pg in the league. Problem is, he is too injury prone. Not sure why, but apparently sitting out the entire season did him no good either. Feel really bad for the kid. I sure hope he isn't like Brandon Roy. It sucks to see good - great players' career end because of injuries

[LarBrd33]

Derrick's career averages: 

21 points, 7 assists, 4 rebounds, 1 steal on 46%/31%/81% shooting

[Jeff]

don't know about that, but he's in the running for "most hurt"

[LarBrd33]

I think there's a legitimate chance that we'll look back on them in 20 years and decide that John Wall had a better career.  That might sound absurd right now, but give it 20 years...

[D.o.s.]

Bogus. MVP is regular season, not the playoffs. Rose was the best player (and only scoring option) on a 62 win team and made the superstar leap at an outstandingly young age.

If you're the most visible difference between 62 wins and 45, I'd say that you're probably pretty valuable. MVP very rarely goes to the best player, and LeBron abdicated the award that year by bailing on Cleveland (who had won 66 games with James as the best player--and eventual MVP) to go to Miami to play with Bosh and Wade. Numbers have little to do with it--especially when those guys had a tough time figuring out how to play together at first. From a story perspective (and these awards are always given to the best player married to the best story), it's hard to beat the hometown kid becoming a superstar and near single-handedly dragging his team into title contention.

Is it right to assume that you're equally down on Steve Nash's MVP's?

For the record, I don't buy in to the idea of overrated MVP's, since there isn't (and never has been) a clear criteria for the award.


edit: I should add that I agree with your other idea--he could have a similar career to Stevie Franchise, although I think that Rose is a better player.

And really, the Injury Robbed Hall Of Fame starts with guys like Penny, T-Mac, and Grant Hill. Rose's case is much weaker.

[Vox_Populi]

For the record, I don't buy in to the idea of overrated MVP's, since there isn't (and never has been) a clear criteria for the award.

I agree with this sentiment. I think the MVP award applies some context to a player's season outside of them just undeniably being the best. That aside, I don't think Rose is overrated either. I believe that if you give him a legitimate second option, he can take a team to the Finals.

[LarBrd33]

Bogus. MVP is regular season, not the playoffs. Rose was the best player (and only scoring option) on a 62 win team and made the superstar leap at an outstandingly young age.

If you're the most visible difference between 62 wins and 45, I'd say that you're probably pretty valuable. MVP very rarely goes to the best player, and LeBron abdicated the award that year by bailing on Cleveland (who had won 66 games with James as the best player--and eventual MVP) to go to Miami to play with Bosh and Wade. Numbers have little to do with it--especially when those guys had a tough time figuring out how to play together at first. From a story perspective (and these awards are always given to the best player married to the best story), it's hard to beat the hometown kid becoming a superstar and near single-handedly dragging his team into title contention.

Is it right to assume that you're equally down on Steve Nash's MVP's?

For the record, I don't buy in to the idea of overrated MVP's, since there isn't (and never has been) a clear criteria for the award.


edit: I should add that I agree with your other idea--he could have a similar career to Stevie Franchise, although I think that Rose is a better player.

And really, the Injury Robbed Hall Of Fame starts with guys like Penny, T-Mac, and Grant Hill. Rose's case is much weaker.

I'll give you that Rose was the best scorer on that team.  It was a loaded team that had the best defense in the league.  Rose had one of the worst defensive ratings of any player on the Bulls that year. 

The Bulls have lost more personnel than just Rose these last couple years.  They have remained competitive. 

Rose was a darn good player.  He was definitely a top 15 player that year.  I'm just saying that LeBron was the clear MVP that year... and there were a few others who I think were more important to their team's success than Derrick Rose.  You could have made an argument for Durant.  Similar stats, lead his team to 55 wins and took them just as far in the playoffs.  You take Durant off that OKC team, it probably doesn't make the playoffs.  You take Rose off that Chicago team... their defense remains elite and they still make the playoffs. 

I think we'll look back on it as a fluke year more than anything. 

[Celtics18]

I feel bad for Derrick Rose.  Whether his MVP award was deserved or not, he earned it, and it can't be taken away from him.

I truly hope he bounces back from this.  Not only is he a great basketball player, but he is also a really good guy to be the face of that Bulls franchise.  That city has embraced him for his game, his personality, and his roots in the windy city, deservedly so. 

Good luck, D. Rose. 

[soap07]

Definitely a great player when healthy. Definitely should've never won that MVP though.

Is it right to assume that you're equally down on Steve Nash's MVP's?

Nash had elite numbers to go along with the team wins in a much tougher conference. Rose in his MVP year doesn't come close to Nash in his MVP years.

[LarBrd33]

Is it right to assume that you're equally down on Steve Nash's MVP's?

I was waiting for someone to bring up Nash.  It's either Nash or Rose for most overrated, right?  Plenty of people have argued that there were more deserving MVP's than Nash during those back-to-back years.

That said... the Suns were successful because of their offense.  Nash was THE key part of that offense.

The Bulls were successful because of their defense.  Rose was NOT a key part of that defense.

[indeedproceed]

He was definitely a top 15 player that year.

He was definitely better than a top 15 player that year. In a Lebron-less world, nobody bats an eye at Rose winning that MVP. He was the best player on the best regular season team, and a top-5 player in the league. I agree that Rose didn't deserve the MVP, and that personally Howard or Durant looked like better choices, but I think 'most overrated MVP' is high-order hyperbole. Derrick Rose was a revelation that year, and the clear best player and emotional leader of the best (regular season) team in basketball.

[Celtics18]

He was definitely a top 15 player that year.

He was definitely better than a top 15 player that year. In a Lebron-less world, nobody bats an eye at Rose winning that MVP. He was the best player on the best regular season team, and a top-5 player in the league. I agree that Rose didn't deserve the MVP, and that personally Howard or Durant looked like better choices, but I think 'most overrated MVP' is high-order hyperbole. Derrick Rose was a revelation that year, and the clear best player and emotional leader of the best (regular season) team in basketball.

TP. Well said.

Fair or not, Lebron gave up his MVP award for that season when he danced on the stage with the pyrotechnics and claimed that his team would win eight titles in a row. 

[soap07]

He was definitely a top 15 player that year.

He was definitely better than a top 15 player that year. In a Lebron-less world, nobody bats an eye at Rose winning that MVP. He was the best player on the best regular season team, and a top-5 player in the league. I agree that Rose didn't deserve the MVP, and that personally Howard or Durant looked like better choices, but I think 'most overrated MVP' is high-order hyperbole. Derrick Rose was a revelation that year, and the clear best player and emotional leader of the best (regular season) team in basketball.

I think there's something to be said for it though. Being the Most Overrated MVP isn't a terrible title. You're still an MVP.

It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things but think about this: There has never been an NBA MVP that hasn't made the HOF. Iverson might be the first and people are pretty split on him. But no one disagrees that his MVP season was legit dominance.

Does anyone think Rose will make the Hall? I just don't think his prime dominance talent is in the same league of other MVPs. Not Nash, not AI, not Dirk.

I think there is a fair argument to be made that on a talent level, Rose is the worst NBA MVP in history. Overrated is a subjective term. But on a talent level, he just doesn't match up to other NBA MVPs.

[D.o.s.]

He was definitely a top 15 player that year.

He was definitely better than a top 15 player that year. In a Lebron-less world, nobody bats an eye at Rose winning that MVP. He was the best player on the best regular season team, and a top-5 player in the league. I agree that Rose didn't deserve the MVP, and that personally Howard or Durant looked like better choices, but I think 'most overrated MVP' is high-order hyperbole. Derrick Rose was a revelation that year, and the clear best player and emotional leader of the best (regular season) team in basketball.

I think there's something to be said for it though. Being the Most Overrated MVP isn't a terrible title. You're still an MVP.

It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things but think about this: There has never been an NBA MVP that hasn't made the HOF. Iverson might be the first and people are pretty split on him. But no one disagrees that his MVP season was legit dominance.

Does anyone think Rose will make the Hall? I just don't think his prime dominance talent is in the same league of other MVPs. Not Nash, not AI, not Dirk.

I think there is a fair argument to be made that on a talent level, Rose is the worst NBA MVP in history. Overrated is a subjective term. But on a talent level, he just doesn't match up to other NBA MVPs.

I would bet a large amount of money that Iverson will be a first-ballot hall of Famer.

Also the talent level thing is just as subjective as overrated, even among MVPs. You could argue that Derrick Rose is/was more talented than Bob Cousey and Bob Pettit. He's certainly more talented than Dave Cowens.

Bogus. MVP is regular season, not the playoffs. Rose was the best player (and only scoring option) on a 62 win team and made the superstar leap at an outstandingly young age.

If you're the most visible difference between 62 wins and 45, I'd say that you're probably pretty valuable. MVP very rarely goes to the best player, and LeBron abdicated the award that year by bailing on Cleveland (who had won 66 games with James as the best player--and eventual MVP) to go to Miami to play with Bosh and Wade. Numbers have little to do with it--especially when those guys had a tough time figuring out how to play together at first. From a story perspective (and these awards are always given to the best player married to the best story), it's hard to beat the hometown kid becoming a superstar and near single-handedly dragging his team into title contention.

Is it right to assume that you're equally down on Steve Nash's MVP's?

For the record, I don't buy in to the idea of overrated MVP's, since there isn't (and never has been) a clear criteria for the award.


edit: I should add that I agree with your other idea--he could have a similar career to Stevie Franchise, although I think that Rose is a better player.

And really, the Injury Robbed Hall Of Fame starts with guys like Penny, T-Mac, and Grant Hill. Rose's case is much weaker.

I'll give you that Rose was the best scorer on that team.  It was a loaded team that had the best defense in the league.  Rose had one of the worst defensive ratings of any player on the Bulls that year. 

The Bulls have lost more personnel than just Rose these last couple years.  They have remained competitive. 

Rose was a darn good player.  He was definitely a top 15 player that year.  I'm just saying that LeBron was the clear MVP that year... and there were a few others who I think were more important to their team's success than Derrick Rose.  You could have made an argument for Durant.  Similar stats, lead his team to 55 wins and took them just as far in the playoffs.  You take Durant off that OKC team, it probably doesn't make the playoffs.  You take Rose off that Chicago team... their defense remains elite and they still make the playoffs. 

I think we'll look back on it as a fluke year more than anything. 

Again, Durant doesn't have the story that Rose did that year. This is an award given by sportswriters. Follow the money, as it were.

The same thing can be said about Steve Nash--no matter how you want to slice it, the dude was the maestro of an offense that brought about a huge shift in the way up-tempo basketball was treated. Those Spurs and Pistons teams played ugly, defense heavy hoops, and the 7SoL Suns basically said "eff that" and decided to score as much as possible as fast as possible.

Hence, Nash's MVP's. Numbers aren't the end all be all of this award because, again, it's not a measurement of "best player in year X."