We Only have three "Real" NBA Players on this team.

[Eja117]

When Gerald Wallace is flipping out about effort who do you think he's talking about? Pressey? Avery? Fav? KO?  Bass?

He's talking about Green and possibly Sully with his 3 pointers.  I suppose it's possible he's talking about Brooks and Humph and Bogans but he was with those guys last year and he didn't flip out then.

[BballTim]

  Gotta love a thread claiming that players in their 20s who have started many games (even on playoff teams) aren't "real" nba players.

I rankled at that a bit, too, but in context it's clear the OP meant "NBA starters."

  What he really meant was "average or better nba starters",  unless you can think of a reason someone who's started regularly in 4 of his 5 seasons doesn't qualify as an "NBA starter".

Claiming that Jeff Green isn't an average NBA starter, and Sullinger is constitutes either not knowing the NBA landscape, or intentional trolling.

Well it's just that Jeffy is allergic to rebounds and effort, whereas Sully wants every rebound he ever saw....

  I don't think Green's really allergic to effort. You rarely if ever see that in good defenders.

Avery Bradley is a good defender. Avery Bradley plays with effort. Green is here to get a check

  We've had a lot of lazy players go through Boston, Green isn't really among them.

I'd agree. In Green's (and similar players') case, we ascribe the term "lazy" because it's easier than acknowledging he's just "not that great" and that "we were really wrong judging his talent."

  Possibly, although most expectations of Green's talent weren't centered around his rebounding. His overall rebounding rate last year was fairly close to that of players like Batum, Prince, Webster, Budinger, Artest and Parsons. Not necessarily what you'd hope for, not average for his position, but it's not the biggest crisis you'll come across either.

Well wait a second.....Budinger was hurt a lot so let's not do him.  Tayshaun averaged more rebs (4.2 vs 3.9) despite being 33 years old and a lot skinnier and being traded half way through the year.

Lets look at Batum.....an inch shorter and 15 pounds lighter.....5.6 rebs vs 3.9, but that's not all folks. We have 4.9 assists vs 1.6.  1.2 steals vs .7 

Parsons was 5.3 rebs and 3.5 assists

Martell was the same amount of rebs despite being 2 inches shorter and 5 lbs lighter but shot the ball far better

These guys played more minutes so I give them that.  It could be for a reason.  Green has never averaged more than 6.7 in a year (his second year).

  Not sure you really understand rebound rate, or why you'd think you should be making excuses for the other players (Prince's rebounding ability was somehow affected by his being traded? Really?) yet ignore that Green was recovering from *open heart surgery*. FWIW, his rebounds per minute increased as the season progressed and his health improved.

[Eja117]

  Gotta love a thread claiming that players in their 20s who have started many games (even on playoff teams) aren't "real" nba players.

I rankled at that a bit, too, but in context it's clear the OP meant "NBA starters."

  What he really meant was "average or better nba starters",  unless you can think of a reason someone who's started regularly in 4 of his 5 seasons doesn't qualify as an "NBA starter".

Claiming that Jeff Green isn't an average NBA starter, and Sullinger is constitutes either not knowing the NBA landscape, or intentional trolling.

Well it's just that Jeffy is allergic to rebounds and effort, whereas Sully wants every rebound he ever saw....

  I don't think Green's really allergic to effort. You rarely if ever see that in good defenders.

Avery Bradley is a good defender. Avery Bradley plays with effort. Green is here to get a check

  We've had a lot of lazy players go through Boston, Green isn't really among them.

I'd agree. In Green's (and similar players') case, we ascribe the term "lazy" because it's easier than acknowledging he's just "not that great" and that "we were really wrong judging his talent."

  Possibly, although most expectations of Green's talent weren't centered around his rebounding. His overall rebounding rate last year was fairly close to that of players like Batum, Prince, Webster, Budinger, Artest and Parsons. Not necessarily what you'd hope for, not average for his position, but it's not the biggest crisis you'll come across either.

Well wait a second.....Budinger was hurt a lot so let's not do him.  Tayshaun averaged more rebs (4.2 vs 3.9) despite being 33 years old and a lot skinnier and being traded half way through the year.

Lets look at Batum.....an inch shorter and 15 pounds lighter.....5.6 rebs vs 3.9, but that's not all folks. We have 4.9 assists vs 1.6.  1.2 steals vs .7 

Parsons was 5.3 rebs and 3.5 assists

Martell was the same amount of rebs despite being 2 inches shorter and 5 lbs lighter but shot the ball far better

These guys played more minutes so I give them that.  It could be for a reason.  Green has never averaged more than 6.7 in a year (his second year).

  Not sure you really understand rebound rate, or why you'd think you should be making excuses for the other players (Prince's rebounding ability was somehow affected by his being traded? Really?) yet ignore that Green was recovering from *open heart surgery*. FWIW, his rebounds per minute increased as the season progressed and his health improved.

Then what's the excuse now? It's preseason and he's just too cool for it? The rest of the league showed up, but he decided to just not really care?

[BballTim]

  Gotta love a thread claiming that players in their 20s who have started many games (even on playoff teams) aren't "real" nba players.

I rankled at that a bit, too, but in context it's clear the OP meant "NBA starters."

  What he really meant was "average or better nba starters",  unless you can think of a reason someone who's started regularly in 4 of his 5 seasons doesn't qualify as an "NBA starter".

Claiming that Jeff Green isn't an average NBA starter, and Sullinger is constitutes either not knowing the NBA landscape, or intentional trolling.

Well it's just that Jeffy is allergic to rebounds and effort, whereas Sully wants every rebound he ever saw....

  I don't think Green's really allergic to effort. You rarely if ever see that in good defenders.

Avery Bradley is a good defender. Avery Bradley plays with effort. Green is here to get a check

  We've had a lot of lazy players go through Boston, Green isn't really among them.

I'd agree. In Green's (and similar players') case, we ascribe the term "lazy" because it's easier than acknowledging he's just "not that great" and that "we were really wrong judging his talent."

  Possibly, although most expectations of Green's talent weren't centered around his rebounding. His overall rebounding rate last year was fairly close to that of players like Batum, Prince, Webster, Budinger, Artest and Parsons. Not necessarily what you'd hope for, not average for his position, but it's not the biggest crisis you'll come across either.

Well wait a second.....Budinger was hurt a lot so let's not do him.  Tayshaun averaged more rebs (4.2 vs 3.9) despite being 33 years old and a lot skinnier and being traded half way through the year.

Lets look at Batum.....an inch shorter and 15 pounds lighter.....5.6 rebs vs 3.9, but that's not all folks. We have 4.9 assists vs 1.6.  1.2 steals vs .7 

Parsons was 5.3 rebs and 3.5 assists

Martell was the same amount of rebs despite being 2 inches shorter and 5 lbs lighter but shot the ball far better

These guys played more minutes so I give them that.  It could be for a reason.  Green has never averaged more than 6.7 in a year (his second year).

  Not sure you really understand rebound rate, or why you'd think you should be making excuses for the other players (Prince's rebounding ability was somehow affected by his being traded? Really?) yet ignore that Green was recovering from *open heart surgery*. FWIW, his rebounds per minute increased as the season progressed and his health improved.

Then what's the excuse now? It's preseason and he's just too cool for it? The rest of the league showed up, but he decided to just not really care?

  I haven't seen much of the preseason. His rebounding rate's been pretty steady over his career. It's close to the same defensively although his offensive rebounding dropped some when he came to the Celts. If he's rebounding at his typical rate it's much ado about nothing. If not, you'd have to consider whether it's his role or his effort. "It's just the preseason" is fairly dismissive, but it's also true.

[D.o.s.]

When Gerald Wallace is flipping out about effort who do you think he's talking about? Pressey? Avery? Fav? KO?  Bass?

He's talking about Green and possibly Sully with his 3 pointers.  I suppose it's possible he's talking about Brooks and Humph and Bogans but he was with those guys last year and he didn't flip out then.

That's an awfully declarative statement.

Also, I'm pretty sure I remember Crash being quoted as underwhelmed with the Nets effort/enthusiasm last year. That's kind of his thing--all 1,000% all the time.

[kozlodoev]

When Gerald Wallace is flipping out about effort who do you think he's talking about? Pressey? Avery? Fav? KO?  Bass?

He's talking about Green and possibly Sully with his 3 pointers.  I suppose it's possible he's talking about Brooks and Humph and Bogans but he was with those guys last year and he didn't flip out then.

That's an awfully declarative statement.

Also, I'm pretty sure I remember Crash being quoted as underwhelmed with the Nets effort/enthusiasm last year. That's kind of his thing--all 1,000% all the time.

Well, everyone who came from the Nets with him seems to have retained the attitude he did and does criticize, so...

[Yoki_IsTheName]

I think Jeff Green has proven himself to be a "real" NBA player (of course we're using the OP's standards of real). A guy who can average 13.6 points, 5.2 rebounds shooting 45% per game in his career is a real NBA player.

Too bad though that he's our primary offensive option. While he showed he can light it up, he's still inconsistent.

But to say he's not a "real" NBA player is probably out of line. He's a borderline starter, a second or third option on a contending team. He's not a "real" NBA player maybe, just maybe because he's not reaching this very high expectations some of us here are having? If he's indeed, the man (or one of THE men) then he does indeed needs to prove more. But he's shown enough to be this "real" NBA player and it's unfair to call him not.

And Sully to me has talent, but hasnt proven anything yet. While I'm very optimistic, he still needs a little more track record.

[PhoSita]

Given his inconsistency and lack of efficiency, I'm not convinced Green is really "average" in the sense of overall value and production.  He lacks an elite skill and he doesn't score consistently enough or efficiently enough to truly overcome that fact.  I'd rather have Thabo Sefolosha starting for my team, for example, despite the fact that he's never averaged close to 16 points a game.

You don't have to have one elite skill to be considered at least an average NBA player. Guys like Scottie Pippen and Tayshaun Prince did just fine by being jacks of all trades, masters of none. There's no blueprint.

In any case, I also consider Thabo Sefolosha at least an average NBA starter, despite the fact that he isn't a prolific scorer. I just don't think you realize how many truly horrible players in the NBA are getting starter or close to starter minutes. I mean guys such as Singler, Gee, Zeller, Ariza, Aminu, you name it.

Using basketball-reference, I listed all of the players who played a total of at least 500 minutes and averaged at least 10 minutes a game last season, and then sorted the list by Win Shares Per 48 minutes.

I counted 47 players who I would consider to be "wing" players ahead of Green on that list.


Furthermore, using the same criteria, among players listed as G / G-F / F-G or F, here is how Green ranks in the following categories:

Points per 36 minutes: 46th
Rebounds per 36 minutes: 60th
Assists per 36 minutes: 77th
Steals per 36 minutes: 79th
Free throw attempts per 36 minutes: 39th
Blocks per 36 minutes: 14th
TS%: 46th
PER: 79th

So it might actually be charitable to say that Green is "average" in many areas.  The only place he stands out at all is in the blocks category.

Trust me, I realize just how many crappy players are getting starter minutes (or close to it) in the NBA.  That doesn't mean that Green is an "average" player for his position in terms of production. 

There are lots of players who just do more to help their teams win; not all of those players are getting starter minutes, however.


Tayshaun Prince is an interesting comparison because, like Green, he has never been especially productive in statistical terms.  He did, however, play superb defense (he made 4 All-Defensive 2nd Teams), and stepped up his game in the playoffs.  Also, Tayshaun has a career offensive rating of 109 with a defensive rating of 107. 

Green, by comparison, has that same defensive rating of 107 with an offensive rating of 103.  Which means that over his career, Green's teams have been worse with him on the floor than without.

[kozlodoev]

Using basketball-reference, I listed all of the players who played a total of at least 500 minutes and averaged at least 10 minutes a game last season, and then sorted the list by Win Shares Per 48 minutes.

Per 36 minute averages for someone who's played 10 minutes a game are completely worthless.

Also, the argument was that he was an average starter, and there is a pile of things that make starters different from someone who you stick in for 10 minutes a game. Notably, extended minutes make the peaks and valleys even out, and also make it more likely that you're facing the opposition's better players.

My own experiment yesterday with players who played 25+ minutes per game and more than 40 games over the 2012-2013 season put Green, as expected, somewhere in the middle of the pack.

[PhoSita]

My own experiment yesterday with players who played 25+ minutes per game and more than 40 games over the 2012-2013 season put Green, as expected, somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Alright, a list made with some more stringent requirements -- 750 total minutes played, at least 15 minutes per game.

Here's a list of all the wing players who rank ahead of Green in WS/48.  WS/48 is far from a perfect stat, but I think this is a decent representation of players who are all more productive than Green.

There are some names there that seem as a common sense matter to be much less impressive than Green.  But two things -- Green's high points tend to drown out the memories of his much more frequent unimpressive performances; furthermore, those "less impressive" players tend to make a lot less money than Green does, so they are clearly a better value.

The point here is that Green is an extremely replaceable player.


LeBron
Durant
Harden
Wade
Anthony
Bryant
Leonard
Ilyasova
J. Butler
Kev. Martin
Ginobili
Gallinari
Sefolosha
M. Barnes
Paul George
Kirilenko
V. Carter
T. Young
Pierce
D. Wright
Da. Green
Marion
R. Allen
Hayward
Parsons
J.R. Smith
Ja. Crawford
L. Stephenson
T. Allen
J. Dudley
L. Deng
N. Batum
M. Webster
Wilson Chandler
K. Korver
M. Miller
D. Carroll
Q. Pondexter
B. Diaw
S. Battier
C. Copeland
M. Dunleavy
J. Jerebko
C. Delfino
T. Ariza
W. Green

[pearljammer10]

  Gotta love a thread claiming that players in their 20s who have started many games (even on playoff teams) aren't "real" nba players.

I rankled at that a bit, too, but in context it's clear the OP meant "NBA starters."

  What he really meant was "average or better nba starters",  unless you can think of a reason someone who's started regularly in 4 of his 5 seasons doesn't qualify as an "NBA starter".

Claiming that Jeff Green isn't an average NBA starter, and Sullinger is constitutes either not knowing the NBA landscape, or intentional trolling.

Well it's just that Jeffy is allergic to rebounds and effort, whereas Sully wants every rebound he ever saw....

  I don't think Green's really allergic to effort. You rarely if ever see that in good defenders.

Avery Bradley is a good defender. Avery Bradley plays with effort. Green is here to get a check

  We've had a lot of lazy players go through Boston, Green isn't really among them.

I'd agree. In Green's (and similar players') case, we ascribe the term "lazy" because it's easier than acknowledging he's just "not that great" and that "we were really wrong judging his talent."

  Possibly, although most expectations of Green's talent weren't centered around his rebounding. His overall rebounding rate last year was fairly close to that of players like Batum, Prince, Webster, Budinger, Artest and Parsons. Not necessarily what you'd hope for, not average for his position, but it's not the biggest crisis you'll come across either.

Well wait a second.....Budinger was hurt a lot so let's not do him.  Tayshaun averaged more rebs (4.2 vs 3.9) despite being 33 years old and a lot skinnier and being traded half way through the year.

Lets look at Batum.....an inch shorter and 15 pounds lighter.....5.6 rebs vs 3.9, but that's not all folks. We have 4.9 assists vs 1.6.  1.2 steals vs .7 

Parsons was 5.3 rebs and 3.5 assists

Martell was the same amount of rebs despite being 2 inches shorter and 5 lbs lighter but shot the ball far better

These guys played more minutes so I give them that.  It could be for a reason.  Green has never averaged more than 6.7 in a year (his second year).

Oh right Budinger was hurt...I forgot Jeff Green only had heart surgery.

[Who]

ATL   K.Korver
BKN   P.Pierce
BOS   J.Green
CHA   M.Kidd-Gilchrist
CHI   L.Deng
CLE     A.Gee
DAL   S.Marion
DEN   D.Gallinari
DET   Josh Smith
GSW   H.Barnes
HOU   C.Parsons
IND   P.George
LAC   J.Dudley
LAL   Shawne Williams
MEM   T.Prince
MIA   L.James
MIL    C.Butler
MIN   Derrick Williams
NOH   Al Farouq Aminu
NYK   C.Anthony
OKC   K.Durant
ORL   Moe Harkless
PHI   Evan Turner
PHO    Marcus Morris
POR   N.Batum
SAC   Mbah a Moute
SAS   K.Leonard
TOR   R.Gay
UTA   R.Jefferson
WAS   M.Webster

That is a list of 30 teams with their starting SF listed. So to decide if J.Green is an average starting SF or not, where does Jeff Green rank on the list?

I have Jeff Green ranked middle of the pack. I go back and forth between 11th to 16th (in a mix with C.Parsons, H.Barnes, T.Prince, J.Smith, S.Marion). I rate Jeff Green somewhere within that range.

[moiso]

ATL   K.Korver
BKN   P.Pierce
BOS   J.Green
CHA   M.Kidd-Gilchrist
CHI   L.Deng
CLE     A.Gee
DAL   S.Marion
DEN   D.Gallinari
DET   Josh Smith
GSW   H.Barnes
HOU   C.Parsons
IND   P.George
LAC   J.Dudley
LAL   Shawne Williams
MEM   T.Prince
MIA   L.James
MIL    C.Butler
MIN   Derrick Williams
NOH   Al Farouq Aminu
NYK   C.Anthony
OKC   K.Durant
ORL   Moe Harkless
PHI   Evan Turner
PHO    Marcus Morris
POR   N.Batum
SAC   Mbah a Moute
SAS   K.Leonard
TOR   R.Gay
UTA   R.Jefferson
WAS   M.Webster

That is a list of 30 teams with their starting SF listed. So to decide if J.Green is an average starting SF or not, where does Jeff Green rank on the list?

I have Jeff Green ranked middle of the pack. I go back and forth between 11th to 16th (in a mix with C.Parsons, H.Barnes, T.Prince, J.Smith, S.Marion). I rate Jeff Green somewhere within that range.

I have Green at 20 or 21 on that list.  Behind everyone that you have him in the mix with except Prince(due to some possible age related slippage).

[PhoSita]

ATL   K.Korver
BKN   P.Pierce
BOS   J.Green
CHA   M.Kidd-Gilchrist
CHI   L.Deng
CLE     A.Gee
DAL   S.Marion
DEN   D.Gallinari
DET   Josh Smith
GSW   H.Barnes
HOU   C.Parsons
IND   P.George
LAC   J.Dudley
LAL   Shawne Williams
MEM   T.Prince
MIA   L.James
MIL    C.Butler
MIN   Derrick Williams
NOH   Al Farouq Aminu
NYK   C.Anthony
OKC   K.Durant
ORL   Moe Harkless
PHI   Evan Turner
PHO    Marcus Morris
POR   N.Batum
SAC   Mbah a Moute
SAS   K.Leonard
TOR   R.Gay
UTA   R.Jefferson
WAS   M.Webster

That is a list of 30 teams with their starting SF listed. So to decide if J.Green is an average starting SF or not, where does Jeff Green rank on the list?

I have Jeff Green ranked middle of the pack. I go back and forth between 11th to 16th (in a mix with C.Parsons, H.Barnes, T.Prince, J.Smith, S.Marion). I rate Jeff Green somewhere within that range.

Among the guys you list, the only one I'd prefer Green over is Tayshaun, and that's because Tay is kinda washed up at this point.


Also, simply listing the starting SFs for all the other teams in the league overlooks the fact that there may be some SFs not starting who are nonetheless better than Green.

Francisco Garcia in Houston, for example, is more productive and efficient, and he can play either wing position.  The Clippers have both Jared Dudley and Matt Barnes.  One of them won't be starting; the one who isn't is nonetheless a better player than Jeff, in my opinion.  Wilson Chandler in Denver doesn't start at SF but he's a better version of Jeff.

[moiso]

ATL   K.Korver
BKN   P.Pierce
BOS   J.Green
CHA   M.Kidd-Gilchrist
CHI   L.Deng
CLE     A.Gee
DAL   S.Marion
DEN   D.Gallinari
DET   Josh Smith
GSW   H.Barnes
HOU   C.Parsons
IND   P.George
LAC   J.Dudley
LAL   Shawne Williams
MEM   T.Prince
MIA   L.James
MIL    C.Butler
MIN   Derrick Williams
NOH   Al Farouq Aminu
NYK   C.Anthony
OKC   K.Durant
ORL   Moe Harkless
PHI   Evan Turner
PHO    Marcus Morris
POR   N.Batum
SAC   Mbah a Moute
SAS   K.Leonard
TOR   R.Gay
UTA   R.Jefferson
WAS   M.Webster

That is a list of 30 teams with their starting SF listed. So to decide if J.Green is an average starting SF or not, where does Jeff Green rank on the list?

I have Jeff Green ranked middle of the pack. I go back and forth between 11th to 16th (in a mix with C.Parsons, H.Barnes, T.Prince, J.Smith, S.Marion). I rate Jeff Green somewhere within that range.

Among the guys you list, the only one I'd prefer Green over is Tayshaun, and that's because Tay is kinda washed up at this point.


Also, simply listing the starting SFs for all the other teams in the league overlooks the fact that there may be some SFs not starting who are nonetheless better than Green.

Francisco Garcia in Houston, for example, is more productive and efficient, and he can play either wing position.  The Clippers have both Jared Dudley and Matt Barnes.  One of them won't be starting; the one who isn't is nonetheless a better player than Jeff, in my opinion.  Wilson Chandler in Denver doesn't start at SF but he's a better version of Jeff.

Kirilenko too.