Doc talks about KG, Perk trade, etc.

[LB3533]

In my recollection, Rondo got into a few more scuffles on the court than normal after the Perk trade. Now, I don't really know why, but it could be cause he was ticked off or he was trying to bring the toughness that we lost with the trade?

At any rate, that season we had a lot of big guys at the 5 on our roster so Perk became expendable,e specially after he hurt his other knee in that Golden State game.

In the long run, the trade was even better because now we are in a position not needing to be handcuffed with Perk's type of contract.

[pearljammer10]

Finally a statement on the Perk trade that is true and makes sense. We keep Perk that year and we are in the finals no questions asked. I love Green and am a huge Green supporter, but that Perk deal had all the effects on KG that Doc talked about and then some.

[gpap]

The Perk trade WAS a mistake (everyone knows it)

Oh really? I don't consider it a mistake, and I'm part of "everyone", so I think there's a problem with your data set.

Let me rephrase.

After the Perk trade, the Celts were left with no legit center. Shaq was injured, Jermaine O'Neal did return afterwards but does not have Perk's toughness and Krstic never really seem to find his niche on the team.

Maybe on paper, the deal made sense (maybe.)

But leading into the February 2011 deadline, that team should not have been altered and should've been left the way it was.

Sometimes it still pains me to think what could've been had that 2010-11 team been left alone. Remember, the Celts were 3-0 vs Miami in that season series before the Perk deal and got off to a 38-10 start.

Yes I know Perk was out for most of that season and Shaq was our guy in the beginning of the year.

But, by the time the Celts played Miami in the playoffs that year, you could tell something wasn't right.

Miami was good, but there is no way they should've beaten the Celts in 5 games in that series.(though I am sure everyone will point to the Rondo and Shaq injuries.)

And furthermore, I definitely agree with Doc that dealing Perk put a much greater strain on KG because he had no other back-up in the paint.

Remember Pierce's quote the day of the Perk deal, "man I hope Danny and Doc know what they are doing."

Well, I don't think Danny does.

AND, 2 1/2 years later, I still fail to see what the big benefit was in getting Jeff Green. No doubt he's a good player. But was it worth jeopardizing the Celts chances of a title in 2011? No.

[gpap]

The Perk trade WAS a mistake (everyone knows it)

Oh really? I don't consider it a mistake, and I'm part of "everyone", so I think there's a problem with your data set.

I don't think it was a "mistake" either..I think it was more of a timing thing than anything else.

add me to the list of "everyone" don't get me wrong - I LOVED Perk when he was with us. But at the end, Perk is just going to be overpaid. Jeff Green is a better athlete and better long term vs Perk. However, I also agree with the part where it was a timing issue. If we have not pulled the trigger in 2011, would it made much of a difference in the Miami series?

If these two scenarios existed:

1. We don't trade Perk - We beat Miami, would we have won a championship? would they trade for Perk the following year for Green?

2. We don't trade Perk - We still lose to Miami, would OKC still accept that trade in the offseason

Something tells me that dealing for Jeff Green wasn't nor isn't a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[fairweatherfan]

Finally a statement on the Perk trade that is true and makes sense. We keep Perk that year and we are in the finals no questions asked. I love Green and am a huge Green supporter, but that Perk deal had all the effects on KG that Doc talked about and then some.

Hypothetical championships come a lot cheaper than real ones.  How many other fanbases say every year "If only X had/hadn't happened, we'd've definitely made the Finals!"? I'd imagine several more than the 2 Finals spots available.  No guarantees of anything with or without Perk.

[Interceptor]

Let me rephrase.

After the Perk trade, the Celts were left with no legit center. Shaq was injured, Jermaine O'Neal did return afterwards but does not have Perk's toughness and Krstic never really seem to find his niche on the team.

Maybe on paper, the deal made sense (maybe.)

But leading into the February 2011 deadline, that team should not have been altered and should've been left the way it was.

Sometimes it still pains me to think what could've been had that 2010-11 team been left alone. Remember, the Celts were 3-0 vs Miami in that season series before the Perk deal and got off to a 38-10 start.

Yes I know Perk was out for most of that season and Shaq was our guy in the beginning of the year.

But, by the time the Celts played Miami in the playoffs that year, you could tell something wasn't right.

Miami was good, but there is no way they should've beaten the Celts in 5 games in that series.(though I am sure everyone will point to the Rondo and Shaq injuries.)

And furthermore, I definitely agree with Doc that dealing Perk put a much greater strain on KG because he had no other back-up in the paint.

Remember Pierce's quote the day of the Perk deal, "man I hope Danny and Doc know what they are doing."

Well, I don't think Danny does.

AND, 2 1/2 years later, I still fail to see what the big benefit was in getting Jeff Green. No doubt he's a good player. But was it worth jeopardizing the Celts chances of a title in 2011? No.

Your recollection doesn't really gel with what actually happened, though.

Shaq was out, as stated, but when he was healthy we were absolutely murdering people. JO broke his wrist in the first round of the playoffs against the Knicks. Krstic picked up bone bruises in both knees within the last couple games of the regular season. Rondo had his elbow broken by Wade. For Christmas's sake, Perkins got injured AGAIN (MCL sprain) almost immediately after he came back.

Perkins on OKC the rest of that season was a shell of his former self, and let's be frank here, his former self wasn't even that great to begin with. We play 4 on 5 offensively with him on the floor, he can't hit free throws, and Miami's small ball line-up doesn't even make him an asset defensively.

And you can't ignore that Rondo injury. Don't forget that the year following, after having lost everyone and their brother to injury, with PP/Judas playing hurt and KG out of gas, we still came within a nosehair of knocking Miami out in the ECF. Why? Because Rondo was lighting them up and having the series of his career, that's why.


Everyone loves Perk, I get it. I love the guy too. But not as a basketball player.

[Boris Badenov]

Let me rephrase.

After the Perk trade, the Celts were left with no legit center. Shaq was injured, Jermaine O'Neal did return afterwards but does not have Perk's toughness and Krstic never really seem to find his niche on the team.

Maybe on paper, the deal made sense (maybe.)

But leading into the February 2011 deadline, that team should not have been altered and should've been left the way it was.

Sometimes it still pains me to think what could've been had that 2010-11 team been left alone. Remember, the Celts were 3-0 vs Miami in that season series before the Perk deal and got off to a 38-10 start.

Yes I know Perk was out for most of that season and Shaq was our guy in the beginning of the year.

But, by the time the Celts played Miami in the playoffs that year, you could tell something wasn't right.

Miami was good, but there is no way they should've beaten the Celts in 5 games in that series.(though I am sure everyone will point to the Rondo and Shaq injuries.)

And furthermore, I definitely agree with Doc that dealing Perk put a much greater strain on KG because he had no other back-up in the paint.

Remember Pierce's quote the day of the Perk deal, "man I hope Danny and Doc know what they are doing."

Well, I don't think Danny does.

AND, 2 1/2 years later, I still fail to see what the big benefit was in getting Jeff Green. No doubt he's a good player. But was it worth jeopardizing the Celts chances of a title in 2011? No.

Your recollection doesn't really gel with what actually happened, though.

Shaq was out, as stated, but when he was healthy we were absolutely murdering people. JO broke his wrist in the first round of the playoffs against the Knicks. Krstic picked up bone bruises in both knees within the last couple games of the regular season. Rondo had his elbow broken by Wade. For Christmas's sake, Perkins got injured AGAIN (MCL sprain) almost immediately after he came back.

Perkins on OKC the rest of that season was a shell of his former self, and let's be frank here, his former self wasn't even that great to begin with. We play 4 on 5 offensively with him on the floor, he can't hit free throws, and Miami's small ball line-up doesn't even make him an asset defensively.

And you can't ignore that Rondo injury. Don't forget that the year following, after having lost everyone and their brother to injury, with PP/Judas playing hurt and KG out of gas, we still came within a nosehair of knocking Miami out in the ECF. Why? Because Rondo was lighting them up and having the series of his career, that's why.


Everyone loves Perk, I get it. I love the guy too. But not as a basketball player.

As far as the Perk trade I think it's possible to view it as being both a significant win *now* for the Celts, and a mistake at the time it was made in terms of costing us a better chance at a ring.

I agree with Interceptor about it looking much better given what everyone knew at the time - except for what Doc is saying. If KG benefited from Perk's enforcer factor, that was a plus even if Perk's play on the court was awful. Hard to quantify that, but I don't see any reason to doubt what Doc is saying.

Both of you are overlooking the real disaster here though. The Perkins trade led to us having that extra 2012 pick...which led to the Fab Melo era. Nothing can compensate for being forced to live through that.

[Interceptor]

Both of you are overlooking the real disaster here though. The Perkins trade led to us having that extra 2012 pick...which led to the Fab Melo era. Nothing can compensate for being forced to live through that.

[fairweatherfan]

Both of you are overlooking the real disaster here though. The Perkins trade led to us having that extra 2012 pick...which led to the Fab Melo era. Nothing can compensate for being forced to live through that.

Was it really that tough?  We never gave or expected Melo to play any meaningful role.  He barely even made it on the court for us.  It was just like "We picked him and he sucks...he's in the D-League and he sucks...he's playing a few garbage minutes and he sucks...back to sucking in the D-League...and he's gone.  And still sucks."  Pretty smooth, even ride, really.

[Moranis]

Was Doc always this ridiculous, and I just blocked it out because he was our coach?

Perkins is an overpaid stiff, Jeff Green is a stud, and filming commercials isn't mutually exclusive with doing work on the floor.

I've never liked Doc and I've always felt he was a phony.  He would always say one thing, but do something else, etc.  Just not a very likeable guy in my mind.  He was the coach of the Celtics so I of course wanted Boston to win, but I was happy the day he left and just wish it was years ago.

[CelticG1]

Losing Perk in game 7 of the finals lost a championship.

Its really hard to convince celtics fans and and any fan that if we didn't make that trade that we may have had a chance in that year.

Even if if you believe perk is that big a difference maker its not like losing KG in 09 or losing Rondo or something.

If you wanted to ride it out to ride it out and see what happens that's fine. But to act like he would have vaulted us from losing in second round in 5 games to the NBA finals seems a little absurd.

[More Banners]

The Perk trade WAS a mistake (everyone knows it)

Oh really? I don't consider it a mistake, and I'm part of "everyone", so I think there's a problem with your data set.

Let me rephrase.

After the Perk trade, the Celts were left with no legit center. Shaq was injured, Jermaine O'Neal did return afterwards but does not have Perk's toughness and Krstic never really seem to find his niche on the team.

Maybe on paper, the deal made sense (maybe.)

But leading into the February 2011 deadline, that team should not have been altered and should've been left the way it was.

Sometimes it still pains me to think what could've been had that 2010-11 team been left alone. Remember, the Celts were 3-0 vs Miami in that season series before the Perk deal and got off to a 38-10 start.

Yes I know Perk was out for most of that season and Shaq was our guy in the beginning of the year.

But, by the time the Celts played Miami in the playoffs that year, you could tell something wasn't right.

Miami was good, but there is no way they should've beaten the Celts in 5 games in that series.(though I am sure everyone will point to the Rondo and Shaq injuries.)

And furthermore, I definitely agree with Doc that dealing Perk put a much greater strain on KG because he had no other back-up in the paint.

Remember Pierce's quote the day of the Perk deal, "man I hope Danny and Doc know what they are doing."

Well, I don't think Danny does.

AND, 2 1/2 years later, I still fail to see what the big benefit was in getting Jeff Green. No doubt he's a good player. But was it worth jeopardizing the Celts chances of a title in 2011? No.

Doc was pretty much a chemistry coach looking for "flow" and, we now are led to believe, defense.  Disruptions to the roster would be something I'd expect him to look to blame.

But no way the hobbled, recovering Perkins puts us in the Finals.

I don't think he knew how to adapt as the roster evolved after 2008.  He tried to work new guys into old molds they didn't quite fit, and they struggled.  He was so confident in himself, his schemes, and his veterans that he didn't seem to worry about early season losses.  At all. 

Expect many emotional retrospectives among this group; it was their peak, and they each know they may never get there again.  They learned that the hard way.

[Eddie20]

Was Doc always this ridiculous, and I just blocked it out because he was our coach?

Perkins is an overpaid stiff, Jeff Green is a stud, and filming commercials isn't mutually exclusive with doing work on the floor.

Disagree on all counts. The Perk trade WAS a mistake (everyone knows it) and I agree that the Clippers, particularly Paul and Griffin need discipline and to be reminded to focus more on the game and less on being in State Farm and Kia commercials.

Maybe their "stardom" got to their head.

Guys, are you forgetting just how much Doc likes to joke during his interviews? I'm almost certain he was joking about the commercial to get a laugh.

[Boris Badenov]

Both of you are overlooking the real disaster here though. The Perkins trade led to us having that extra 2012 pick...which led to the Fab Melo era. Nothing can compensate for being forced to live through that.

Was it really that tough?  We never gave or expected Melo to play any meaningful role.  He barely even made it on the court for us.  It was just like "We picked him and he sucks...he's in the D-League and he sucks...he's playing a few garbage minutes and he sucks...back to sucking in the D-League...and he's gone.  And still sucks."  Pretty smooth, even ride, really.

It was a joke...mostly referring to the seemingly endless debate here on CB about Fab's potential, even in the face of all the evidence that Fab was just terrible.

[TripleOT]

Is anyone surprised that Doc thinks that the Perk trade was a mistake?  He believed in the synergy of the starting five that won the title. Doc understands that Perk doing the dirty work like bodying opposing bigs had value, especially to KG, whose body wasn't suited for it. If one or both of the O'Neals could have been  healthy, it would have been a different story.   

Those were Doc's guys, and he had a tremendous amount of success with them.  He wanted to take another shot with them, and the trade precluded him from doing so.

Calling Doc ridiculous for having this opinion is ridiculous.  This is the captain of the ship.  He knows how best to maneuver the ship.  It doesn't fit the narrative on those who liked the Perk trade, but this is how the coach of the team felt about the trade.  I put a lot of weight in it.  (Of course, it backs up my view of the trade,  conveniently).