Celtics vs Cavs,Wizards,Raptors,Hawks,Bucks

[PhoSita]

The cavs and wiz will be in limbo as long as irving and wall are the teams pg.

This is such an extreme and unfounded viewpoint that I don't even know what to say.  I don't think you have a strong grasp of how basketball works if you think these players are actually a detriment to their team simply because they focus more on scoring than racking up assists -- especially when you consider the teammates that they have.

[Tr1boy]

The cavs and wiz will be in limbo as long as irving and wall are the teams pg.

This is such an extreme and unfounded viewpoint that I don't even know what to say.  I don't think you have a strong grasp of how basketball works if you think these players are actually a detriment to their team simply because they focus more on scoring than racking up assists -- especially when you consider the teammates that they have.

Thats ur opinion. A pg number one job is to make everyone better,not try to take away other ppls shot when possible.

Nash when he was with phx at one pt had barely any real talent to work with. He was still getting the team involved. Look at guys like stockton and helping to overachieve the jazz. And in theory offensively involved team play better defense, play with more intensity.

You got wall and irving and the team on offense stands around. In defense rotations are misssd , feet are planted on the court. Worse the hogs like wall dont play inspirational defense.

[LilRip]

The C's are in the bottom of the east alongside the Magic and Philly and the Bobcats. It seems that the Bucks will likely join that group as well, but I'm pretty sure Cavs, Wiz, Raps and Hawks join the Pistons in the tier fighting for the last 3 playoff spots.

Celts are not going to be hanging around with the likes of the 76rs, bobcats, magic.

The cavs and wiz will be in limbo as long as irving and wall are the teams pg. Unless they change and get their teams involved or if ur going to be score 1st pg like rose play Solid defense. Dont think some fans realize how much maturity , defense counts vs talent. A miami heat without wade and lebron would beat all these team and u couldnt call them then a talented bunch

no one is underrating defense but on paper (which is all we have right now), it doesn't seem like the C's will be much of a defensive outfit next season. And no one is discounting character but it's not like the C's have a monopoly on high character guys either. I dont know if this should be news to you but we're not the only team in the league that values high character guys. That's why for the most part, the Gilbert Arenases of the world are gone.

Looking at the current Wiz and Cavs roster, wouldn't you say those are pretty high character guys? Or at the very least, guys who aren't locker room cancers or will completely discombobulate team dynamics? Sure there might be a crazy Jordan Crawford-type hidden in those teams (like Andrew Bynum), but for the most part, they're solid.

Yes but both are still a very young team.  I stated maturity not character. Lack of maturity for wall and dion waiters mean playing the way they feel like it. Ive seen wall dance around with his dribble , give up easy passes and for him to shoot a contested jump shot. I mean what is that?

Celtics outside of jordan crawford dont have guys like that. Some may say brooks is like that but thats why he is not starting in the nba.

if you're going to point out the Wizards flaws, you probably shouldn't start with John Wall. The guy's only 22 years old and already posted a PER of 20.8 last year. It's not unreasonable to think that a 22-yr old would improve. But then again, he might not because he's not a Celtic, right? 

And while last year i would have agreed with you that the Wiz and Cavs wouldn't be able to match the C's "maturity", the truth is that the C's aren't a grizzled, veteran savvy team anymore.

[ronaldo943]

Wizards
Cavaliers
Celtics
Raptors/Bucks
Hawks

How r cavs and wiz better?

Cavs have Irving, Bynum, Varejao, Waiters, Thompson, Bennett, etc. Wizards have Wall, Beal, Okafor, Nene, Porter, Webster, etc. so if both teams are healthy than yes they are better than the Cs.

Your serious right? What has wall and irving done the last several years? What have porter and bennett proven? As far as i know olynyk is ahead with his sl performance.

Waiters? bradley is more proven and a better player.

The thing is this, not stating if okafor/nene and bynum/varejao are healthy and play well these teams are not better. But these are big ifs.

When Wall was playing the Wizards were 24-25 and don't get me wrong it wasn't amazing, but you have to realize that Beal and other guys were injured so it wasn't to bad. Also we are talking about a team that was 5-28 without him so the guy is a winner. Wizards have vastly improved and should have a winning record next season. As for Irving the guy is going to be a SUPERSTAR and now with a good supporting cast the Cavs should have a good season. Also you have to realize that these guys were drafted not very long ago so of course they haven't done much (playoff wise) as both were #1 picks and usually #1 picks go to bad teams. Also what exactly did Rondo do last year?


Lol Waiters has much more potential and will be better (if he isn't already) than Bradley. Bradley is a one trick pony and that is all he will ever be. Bradley shot .402 FG% last year and had to attempt 9.6 shots a game to score 9.2 points. Dion Waiters shot .412 FG% and attempted 13.4 shots a game to score 14.7 points and that isn't good, but he is a rookie. Bradley is probably the most overrated Celtic right now.

So because a team lost more games than they won even WITH him somehow that makes him a winner? AB will likely never be the scorer Waiters may end up being. Then again Waiters I don't believe is as good defensively either so those two may be a push. I don't see anything about Cleveland that automatically makes them any better than Boston on paper. Like Boston, that is a young team with a good PG that has to learn how to incorporate some young talent and learn to play together. Same with Washington while we're at it.

Someone call me the next time John Wall does something important. I don't see anything(as of yeti will say) that separates him from any handful of Washington guards that pre-dated him(Gilbert Arenas, Rod Strickland) also with minimal success in Washington. As far as I'm concerned, they're all at the same level.

You're not understanding he led a 5-28 team to those 24 wins also the Cs didn't have a great record when Rondo was playing last year.

Oh I understand perfectly. You've just said Wall led his team to a below .500 record last year. Something pretty par for the course since Wall has been in the league. No, I'm pretty sure I got that. The C's didn't start out great last year. History says they would have righted the ship WITH Rondo aboard because Rondo has played a major role in his teams ACTUALLY winning(and by winning I mean winning more games than you lose) and getting to the NBA Finals. So no I'm pretty sure I got what you were saying. I appreciate you wanting to clarify but we're good here. Good luck with the Wizards this year.

No you don't get it at all and the more you say you do the less you actually get it. Wall led his team to 24-25 and we are talking about a team that was 5-28 without him. Rondo led him team to 18-20 and without Rondo this team went 23-20. To sum it up for you Rondo had a superior supporting cast, and coach and yet he had about the same record as Wall.

So no you clearly don't understand.

[Vox_Populi]

You got wall and irving and the team on offense stands around. In defense rotations are misssd , feet are planted on the court. Worse the hogs like wall dont play inspirational defense.

Wall is a decent to good defender and one of the few point guards with a genuine shot blocking ability. Given his determination to improve, as evidenced by his training with the Glove this summer, and his elite athleticism, it's very likely he'll be as good a defender as Rose. If not better.

Not to mention Wall does make his team better, by a lot. Their offense rating with him off the court is 97. With him on, it's 104. Not to mention their eFG% improves by about 4% with him on the court. That's the same difference as Chris Paul when he's on vs. off the court. And lastly, I'm not sure if you've watched him extensively or not, but he's a great passer.

[syfy9]

The Wizards and the Cavs are significantly better. All it takes is a break-out season from Irving/Waiters/Thompson/Bennett or Wall/Beal/Porter and they could become relevant. Multiple break-out seasons and they could even get a middle seeding.

Just because teams sucked previous seasons doesn't mean they'll suck the next - especially when you look on paper and see that they have vastly improved.

Team culture can change at an instant. Just ask the 2008 Celtics.

[bucknersrevenge]

Wizards
Cavaliers
Celtics
Raptors/Bucks
Hawks

How r cavs and wiz better?

Cavs have Irving, Bynum, Varejao, Waiters, Thompson, Bennett, etc. Wizards have Wall, Beal, Okafor, Nene, Porter, Webster, etc. so if both teams are healthy than yes they are better than the Cs.

Your serious right? What has wall and irving done the last several years? What have porter and bennett proven? As far as i know olynyk is ahead with his sl performance.

Waiters? bradley is more proven and a better player.

The thing is this, not stating if okafor/nene and bynum/varejao are healthy and play well these teams are not better. But these are big ifs.

When Wall was playing the Wizards were 24-25 and don't get me wrong it wasn't amazing, but you have to realize that Beal and other guys were injured so it wasn't to bad. Also we are talking about a team that was 5-28 without him so the guy is a winner. Wizards have vastly improved and should have a winning record next season. As for Irving the guy is going to be a SUPERSTAR and now with a good supporting cast the Cavs should have a good season. Also you have to realize that these guys were drafted not very long ago so of course they haven't done much (playoff wise) as both were #1 picks and usually #1 picks go to bad teams. Also what exactly did Rondo do last year?


Lol Waiters has much more potential and will be better (if he isn't already) than Bradley. Bradley is a one trick pony and that is all he will ever be. Bradley shot .402 FG% last year and had to attempt 9.6 shots a game to score 9.2 points. Dion Waiters shot .412 FG% and attempted 13.4 shots a game to score 14.7 points and that isn't good, but he is a rookie. Bradley is probably the most overrated Celtic right now.

So because a team lost more games than they won even WITH him somehow that makes him a winner? AB will likely never be the scorer Waiters may end up being. Then again Waiters I don't believe is as good defensively either so those two may be a push. I don't see anything about Cleveland that automatically makes them any better than Boston on paper. Like Boston, that is a young team with a good PG that has to learn how to incorporate some young talent and learn to play together. Same with Washington while we're at it.

Someone call me the next time John Wall does something important. I don't see anything(as of yeti will say) that separates him from any handful of Washington guards that pre-dated him(Gilbert Arenas, Rod Strickland) also with minimal success in Washington. As far as I'm concerned, they're all at the same level.

You're not understanding he led a 5-28 team to those 24 wins also the Cs didn't have a great record when Rondo was playing last year.

Oh I understand perfectly. You've just said Wall led his team to a below .500 record last year. Something pretty par for the course since Wall has been in the league. No, I'm pretty sure I got that. The C's didn't start out great last year. History says they would have righted the ship WITH Rondo aboard because Rondo has played a major role in his teams ACTUALLY winning(and by winning I mean winning more games than you lose) and getting to the NBA Finals. So no I'm pretty sure I got what you were saying. I appreciate you wanting to clarify but we're good here. Good luck with the Wizards this year.

I dont think you understand. The team was 5-28 with out wall, n 24-25 with him. Thats a 19 game differential n if i do recall they had a streak if like 18-5 with him to end the year.
No doubt in my mind the wizards have a better record then te celtics next year.

My list of teams that will have better records in the east then the celtics.

Clearly, bulls , heat, pacers, nets,(no order)

Semi no doubt in my mind. wizards, pistons,  cavs ,

Then the toss ups, hawks , bucks, and bobcats

No matter what magic will be battling for the worst. Hopefully not , hopefully they come out on a tear who knows.
But IMO , riding on if rondo plays opening night, or starts playing in January. Will determind if we are in the tier with the pistons. Or the tier with the magic. And truthfully i dont want to be in the pistons tier. Unless Jeff green becomes a 30ppg scorer this year and rondo is healthy and KO drops 14-15 ppg. We are no where near the pacers n bulls n nets. I dont even mention lebron.

So is there no doubt or is there "semi no doubt"? Which is it? Perhaps you should be more concerned with your own understanding than mine. As I said earlier, I get it. I was not a math major in college but lucky enough for me I got enough math education in my formative years to be able to double-check that differential you mention. It is correct. It is indeed 19 games. Which again as you also confirmed was good enough for a sub .500 record. So having John Wall by your own admission was good enough to elevate the Wizards from complete laughingstock to just mediocre.

See by my count, Rondo's team has finished above the Wizards every year Wall has been there. So until I have real evidence that actually puts the Wiz above the Celtics I'll defer to what history has already proven. But good luck with your Wizards. We'll see how the season turns out.

[PhoSita]

You got wall and irving and the team on offense stands around. In defense rotations are misssd , feet are planted on the court. Worse the hogs like wall dont play inspirational defense.

Wall is a decent to good defender and one of the few point guards with a genuine shot blocking ability. Given his determination to improve, as evidenced by his training with the Glove this summer, and his elite athleticism, it's very likely he'll be as good a defender as Rose. If not better.

Not to mention Wall does make his team better, by a lot. Their offense rating with him off the court is 97. With him on, it's 104. Not to mention their eFG% improves by about 4% with him on the court. That's the same difference as Chris Paul when he's on vs. off the court. And lastly, I'm not sure if you've watched him extensively or not, but he's a great passer.

But he averages way more points than assists so he must not be a real point guard!

[LooseCannon]

Is it meaningful that the Wizards were 23-26 when Nene started?  Maybe the Wizards don't make the playoffs unless Nene is healthy and not declining too much due to age.

[bucknersrevenge]

The C's are in the bottom of the east alongside the Magic and Philly and the Bobcats. It seems that the Bucks will likely join that group as well, but I'm pretty sure Cavs, Wiz, Raps and Hawks join the Pistons in the tier fighting for the last 3 playoff spots.

Celts are not going to be hanging around with the likes of the 76rs, bobcats, magic.

The cavs and wiz will be in limbo as long as irving and wall are the teams pg. Unless they change and get their teams involved or if ur going to be score 1st pg like rose play Solid defense. Dont think some fans realize how much maturity , defense counts vs talent. A miami heat without wade and lebron would beat all these team and u couldnt call them then a talented bunch

no one is underrating defense but on paper (which is all we have right now), it doesn't seem like the C's will be much of a defensive outfit next season. And no one is discounting character but it's not like the C's have a monopoly on high character guys either. I dont know if this should be news to you but we're not the only team in the league that values high character guys. That's why for the most part, the Gilbert Arenases of the world are gone.

Looking at the current Wiz and Cavs roster, wouldn't you say those are pretty high character guys? Or at the very least, guys who aren't locker room cancers or will completely discombobulate team dynamics? Sure there might be a crazy Jordan Crawford-type hidden in those teams (like Andrew Bynum), but for the most part, they're solid.

Yes but both are still a very young team.  I stated maturity not character. Lack of maturity for wall and dion waiters mean playing the way they feel like it. Ive seen wall dance around with his dribble , give up easy passes and for him to shoot a contested jump shot. I mean what is that?

Celtics outside of jordan crawford dont have guys like that. Some may say brooks is like that but thats why he is not starting in the nba.

if you're going to point out the Wizards flaws, you probably shouldn't start with John Wall. The guy's only 22 years old and already posted a PER of 20.8 last year. It's not unreasonable to think that a 22-yr old would improve. But then again, he might not because he's not a Celtic, right? 

And while last year i would have agreed with you that the Wiz and Cavs wouldn't be able to match the C's "maturity", the truth is that the C's aren't a grizzled, veteran savvy team anymore.

How quickly we cast away everyone not named Paul Pierce or Kevin Garnett. I suppose the definition of "grizzled" and/or "veteran savvy" is up to some wide interpretation but we definitely have a roster full of playoff experience. Checking the Wizards roster they have a total of 6 guys with playoff experience totaling 184 playoff games. Now mind you, the Celtics roster may still undergo some changes but as of today we have a total of 8 our of 15 guys with playoff experience totalling 297 playoff games. Oh and one with actual championship experience. And this number would've been higher had it not been for injuries last year. Five of which have played in 25 playoff games or more. So I'd say the Celtics can more than hold their own in the maturity factor.

[ronaldo943]

So is there no doubt or is there "semi no doubt"? Which is it? Perhaps you should be more concerned with your own understanding than mine. As I said earlier, I get it. I was not a math major in college but lucky enough for me I got enough math education in my formative years to be able to double-check that differential you mention. It is correct. It is indeed 19 games. Which again as you also confirmed was good enough for a sub .500 record. So having John Wall by your own admission was good enough to elevate the Wizards from complete laughingstock to just mediocre.

See by my count, Rondo's team has finished above the Wizards every year Wall has been there. So until I have real evidence that actually puts the Wiz above the Celtics I'll defer to what history has already proven. But good luck with your Wizards. We'll see how the season turns out.

You're being very immature clearly we all are Celtics fan, only thing is some of us are not delusional. "Rondo's team" was 18-20 with him and 23-20 without him. Now you have to realize that this team has loss Pierce, KG, Ray Allen and Doc and is heading into a new direction so if anything you should be happy that teams like the Wizards and Cavs are going to be better than the Celtics. What history has already proven? So I'm guessing when the Celtics traded for KG and Allen you thought the Wizards would still be better than the Cs as they had a 41-41 record and the Cs had a 24-58 record in 2006-07.

[Tr1boy]

Bottom line is unless wiz get in , they r not better and no autolock to make the playoffs. Wall/beal/porter and irving/waiters/bennett combos are still a few years away to do anything. Olynyk is ahead of porter/bennett for now.

They both need big efforts from bynum/verejao and okafor/nene to make it in the playoffs and three of those guys are coming back from injuries, two of them from major ones.

[CelticsFan9]

The Hawks are being slept on, in my opinion.  Horford and Millsap is a nice frontcourt, and hopefully Sweet Lou comes back healthy.  He and Teague make for a fun-to-watch backcourt.  Korver slots in nicely at SF.  The Hawks will have the floor spread next year.  I expect them to be above-average offensively.

The Bucks are depressing, really.  A rotation of:

Knight/Udrih
Mayo/Neal
Delfino/Giannis Adegreekrookie
Ilyasova/Henson
Sanders/Udoh

is good enough to make to the playoffs in the East.  Despite losing their starting backcourt, I see them playing very similarly.  Personally, I like Larry Drew as a coach, so I think he'll do a good job there.  They'll fight for the eighth seed.

The Raptors looked good post-Rudy Gay trade last year, and I expect them to build on that now that Bargnani is gone.  Lowry is a solid starting PG, and they have an uber-athletic wing rotation of Gay/DeRozan/Ross.  Amir Johnson and Valenciunas up front is nice, too.  They'll be in contention for the postseason.

The Wizards and Cavs could miss the playoffs if health becomes an issue.  Both Wall and Irving are very talented players, but they've struggled to stay on the court.  If those two can play through the whole season (a tall task, but I think they can do it), Washington and Cleveland are both going to compete next year for a playoff spot.

That leaves the Celtics.  A lineup of (this is what I think is our best rotation):

Rondo/Crawford/Pressey
Bradley/Lee/Brooks/Bogans
Green/Wallace
Sullinger/Bass
Olynyk/Humphries/Faverani/Melo

could contend for the playoffs.  I think it depends on how long Rondo is out.  Reports are he'll be ready for training camp, so that's good news.  I think Danny is going to make lots of moves at the deadline, so I don't see the roster looking like this in five or six months time.

My final prediction is that the Hawks, Wizards, and Cavs make it, with the Raptors, Celtics, and Bucks missing out.

[Celtics18]

The Hawks are being slept on, in my opinion.  Horford and Millsap is a nice frontcourt, and hopefully Sweet Lou comes back healthy.  He and Teague make for a fun-to-watch backcourt.  Korver slots in nicely at SF.  The Hawks will have the floor spread next year.  I expect them to be above-average offensively.

The Bucks are depressing, really.  A rotation of:

Knight/Udrih
Mayo/Neal
Delfino/Giannis Adegreekrookie
Ilyasova/Henson
Sanders/Udoh

is good enough to make to the playoffs in the East.  Despite losing their starting backcourt, I see them playing very similarly.  Personally, I like Larry Drew as a coach, so I think he'll do a good job there.  They'll fight for the eighth seed.

The Raptors looked good post-Rudy Gay trade last year, and I expect them to build on that now that Bargnani is gone.  Lowry is a solid starting PG, and they have an uber-athletic wing rotation of Gay/DeRozan/Ross.  Amir Johnson and Valenciunas up front is nice, too.  They'll be in contention for the postseason.

The Wizards and Cavs could miss the playoffs if health becomes an issue.  Both Wall and Irving are very talented players, but they've struggled to stay on the court.  If those two can play through the whole season (a tall task, but I think they can do it), Washington and Cleveland are both going to compete next year for a playoff spot.

That leaves the Celtics.  A lineup of (this is what I think is our best rotation):

Rondo/Crawford/Pressey
Bradley/Lee/Brooks/Bogans
Green/Wallace
Sullinger/Bass
Olynyk/Humphries/Faverani/Melo

could contend for the playoffs.  I think it depends on how long Rondo is out.  Reports are he'll be ready for training camp, so that's good news.  I think Danny is going to make lots of moves at the deadline, so I don't see the roster looking like this in five or six months time.

My final prediction is that the Hawks, Wizards, and Cavs make it, with the Raptors, Celtics, and Bucks missing out.

No Pistons?

[bucknersrevenge]

So is there no doubt or is there "semi no doubt"? Which is it? Perhaps you should be more concerned with your own understanding than mine. As I said earlier, I get it. I was not a math major in college but lucky enough for me I got enough math education in my formative years to be able to double-check that differential you mention. It is correct. It is indeed 19 games. Which again as you also confirmed was good enough for a sub .500 record. So having John Wall by your own admission was good enough to elevate the Wizards from complete laughingstock to just mediocre.

See by my count, Rondo's team has finished above the Wizards every year Wall has been there. So until I have real evidence that actually puts the Wiz above the Celtics I'll defer to what history has already proven. But good luck with your Wizards. We'll see how the season turns out.

You're being very immature clearly we all are Celtics fan, only thing is some of us are not delusional. "Rondo's team" was 18-20 with him and 23-20 without him. Now you have to realize that this team has loss Pierce, KG, Ray Allen and Doc and is heading into a new direction so if anything you should be happy that teams like the Wizards and Cavs are going to be better than the Celtics. What history has already proven? So I'm guessing when the Celtics traded for KG and Allen you thought the Wizards would still be better than the Cs as they had a 41-41 record and the Cs had a 24-58 record in 2006-07.

Ok. So I'm delusional, and "I don't understand". But I'm the immature one. Ok. How about "I know you are but what am I?". I honestly didn't know if you were Celtic fan or not. You were talkin all this noise about the Wiz and John Wall, I thought you were a Wizards fan. Fans of other teams come to this forum. That has actually happened.

But let's get back to you cherry-picking the 38 games from the beginning of last year as if that is somehow the only representation of Rondo's history with this team. That is laughable and you should know better. As a Celtics fan I'd think you'd know Rondo is a lot more than a 38 game span at the beginning of a season. Rondo, author of 92 playoff games worth of experience as the starting PG I'd say is worth plenty. Unlike Wall, Rondo has actually seen what REAL winning looks like and if you think that doesn't mean anything then you couldn't be more wrong. And if you think being on a roster with 300 playoff games worth of experience doesn't count for anything you would be wrong about that too.

As for your somewhat ridiculous question regarding 2007-08. Not a proper analogy. First off, as I would expect you'd remember, basically the entire roster changed over from the previous year to that year. Not the same players. That team increased their talent level ten-fold. What has Washington added to this team that was good enough to go play sub .500 ball with John Wall? Because I would think they would need to add significant talent right since that group wasn't good enough. Leandro Barbosa? Eric Maynor? How about Otto Porter and Glen Rice Jr? Hey all nice players. They might contribute a bit. But the main components of the team that went 24-25 are still their right? So what des that mean then?

The difference between you and my apparent immaturity here is I'm not ready to write this team off yet because their recent history tells me I shouldn't. Whereas the next time John Wall and the Wizards do something important is going to be the first time. I'm not gonna say Wall CAN'T make the playoffs. Maybe he will, and if he does, congratulations to him because he will have earned it. He hasn't earned anything yet. And when I look at the 2 rosters next to each other, there is nothing I see there that puts either team handily ahead of each other.