Why do you think we're contenders?

[lightspeed5]

this is for those who are delusional enough to think we should make the playoffs... Why would you want to pass on the wiggins/parker/randle/gordon/harrison lotto and attempt to make the playoffs with this abomination of a team? Danny traded our all-stars and elite coach for a bunch of ASSETS, not championship pieces. we got the brooklyn rejects and a bunch of draft picks, not contender players.

Do you really think we can beat the durants and lebrons and dwight howards of the world with our horrid team? we have no bench. literally no bench at all unless you count 2 brazilian 7 footers who might be picked at a pick up game at your local YMCA, and the 2 biggest ball chuckers in the game who dont play D.
 
one argument i continuously see is "winning culture is necessary." How was the "winning culture" in OKC after they traded ray allen and got kevin durant? oh right, they stunk. They stuck it out, drafted the studs, and are now set to have a "winning culture" for the next decade and beyond.

[Yogi]

this is for those who are delusional enough to think we should make the playoffs... Why would you want to pass on the wiggins/parker/randle/gordon/harrison lotto and attempt to make the playoffs with this abomination of a team? Danny traded our all-stars and elite coach for a bunch of ASSETS, not championship pieces. we got the brooklyn rejects and a bunch of draft picks, not contender players.

Do you really think we can beat the durants and lebrons and dwight howards of the world with our horrid team? we have no bench. literally no bench at all unless you count 2 brazilian 7 footers who might be picked at a pick up game at your local YMCA, and the 2 biggest ball chuckers in the game who dont play D.
 
one argument i continuously see is "winning culture is necessary." How was the "winning culture" in OKC after they traded ray allen and got kevin durant? oh right, they stunk. They stuck it out, drafted the studs, and are now set to have a "winning culture" for the next decade and beyond.

Abomination of a team?  I have some great news for you!  You are not bound by any law that I am aware of to continue to be a fan of this abomination.  There are plenty of teams to root for in the league.

Correction, Danny kept our only all star in his prime and traded a bunch of 35+ year olds for assets. 

At best we have to play Durant or Lebron or Dwight in one series per season.  As long as we have Rondo on our team, that doesn't bother me one bit.

Assuming Bass and Sullinger start, we have Crawford, Lee, Wallace, Humphries and Olynyk off our bench.  That's a deep bench.  That is also one of the better benches in the league.

Thunder drafted studs and got to the finals?  How about Heat added free agents to a playoff team and became champions?  What?  That's not fair because there is only one Lebron James?  Guess what there is only one Kevin Durant. 

They didn't have a "winning culture" until they added Kendrick Perkins and Derek Fisher to their squad.  That is the value of winning culture.  Just like the Knicks were garbage until they added Kidd and Chandler.  Just like the Celtics were garbage until they added Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen. 

Once you have it, to throw it away is throwing away the most valuable thing Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Jason Terry and Doc Rivers left in Boston.  Winning. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

Making the playoffs != believing team is a contender.

Seattle got Kevin Durant PRIOR to trading Ray Allen.

Don't think any of your other points need to be addressed in any fashion.

[McNoob]

It's not delusional to think the C's will make the playoffs. The East is very weak, with only the Pistons and Cavs possibly being any better than last season. A Celtics team with Rondo, Bradley, Green, and Sullinger is just decent enough to get around 35 wins, which might be enough to grab a #8 seed. Winning the championship is a whole other story.

As for the bench, I'd like to think the C's actually have one of the better in the league. Brooks, Wallace, Humphries/Bass, and Lee are all decent, most of whom can be starters on other teams. It will be interesting to see if Wallace can rejuvenate.

Of course the gaping hole in this team is the center position. If there's any reason to count out a playoff appearance, it's that. So far our center situation is either Fab Melo, Faverini, or an undersized PF.


I'm not sure I like the OKC analogy. Yes, they sucked and subsequently built through the draft, but you gotta understand how rare it was for the Thunder to hit gold on three consecutive lottery picks. They traded Allen after they secured the #2 pick, which guaranteed them a franchise player. Prior to that, they were still trying to win games with Allen and Rashard Lewis. They finished the season with the 5th worst record while winning 31 games. I'd say 31 wins is a good ballpark estimation for the C's this season.

That's why I'm against tanking - you can still try to win yet ultimately lose enough games to secure a high lottery pick.

Anyway, back to OKC. It's fun and all to use them as an example, but like I noted previously, their situation is extremely rare. Either they got really lucky or they have really good scouts. It's easy to hypothesize the C's tanking and grabbing players of Durant, Westbrook, and Harden's caliber, but more often than not their drafts will turn out like Memphis, Charlotte, or Washington.

For example, much like OKC, Memphis also had #2, #3 (trade), and #4 picks around roughly the same time. Those picks turned into Hasheem Thabeet, OJ Mayo, and Mike Conley. Interestingly enough, Conley is a result of the Oden-Durant sweepstakes draft, the season in which Memphis finished last in the league, only to get the 4th overall pick and miss out. Ouch.

The good news is Memphis actually built a winning tradition. Not through those three players though, but through trades, free agency, and prior draftees. Randolph, Marc Gasol, and Tony Allen really helped turn that franchise around.

So if you want to use OKC as an example, it's only logical to use Memphis as well. You can also look at teams like the Bobcats, Wizards, Raptors, and Timberwolves, who despite finishing near the bottom season after season, have not been able to draft more than 1-2 NBA starting-caliber players.

Not saying Ainge has the ineptitude of those GMs, but it's more common to draft players who'll never amount to much than superstars like Durant, Westbrook, and Harden.

Oh, and if Ainge kept the #5 pick, it's very possible he would have drafted Yi Jianlian.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

Is the OP an attempt at trolling? Or is the obsession with lottery picks so deep that all else is inconsequential. Happening to have a lottery pick does not itself win championships any more than hapopening to have Kenyan citizenship will guarantee victory at the Boston Marathon

[LooseCannon]

this is for those who are delusional enough to think we should make the playoffs... Why would you want to pass on the wiggins/parker/randle/gordon/harrison lotto and attempt to make the playoffs with this abomination of a team? Danny traded our all-stars and elite coach for a bunch of ASSETS, not championship pieces. we got the brooklyn rejects and a bunch of draft picks, not contender players.

The building blocks for a contender are the players who were not part of the Nets trade.  If the team is good enough to make the playoffs, then those players are a foundation who are, arguably, one very good player (maybe two good players) away from a championship contender.  With all those extra draft picks and some expiring and non-guaranteed contracts, the Celtics are in a very good position to acquire any star player who suddenly becomes available in a trade.

If the young players already on the roster improve, then a playoff berth is in reach and the team looks like an exciting unit that a top player who wants to win a title might be interesting in joining.

If the young players don't improve and the guys like Olynyk and Faverani are busts, then the team will probably suck naturally without even trying to tank.

I prefer the first scenario because it gets the team back to title contention much faster.  The second scenario is Plan B.  It's not really a choice between two strategies;  it's going down the obvious path based on how the players perform.

[indeedproceed]

Is the OP an attempt at trolling? Or is the obsession with lottery picks so deep that all else is inconsequential. Happening to have a lottery pick does not itself win championships any more than hapopening to have Kenyan citizenship will guarantee victory at the Boston Marathon

Well, Houston gathered assets and turned a fringe starter and 2 lottery picks into James Harden, that's pretty conducive to winning potential titles. Harden and smart drafting/cap management turned into Howard, and bada bing, contender, with more assets still (mostly Asik) to trade for better pieces.

[Yogi]

Is the OP an attempt at trolling? Or is the obsession with lottery picks so deep that all else is inconsequential. Happening to have a lottery pick does not itself win championships any more than hapopening to have Kenyan citizenship will guarantee victory at the Boston Marathon

Well, Houston gathered assets and turned a fringe starter and 2 lottery picks into James Harden, that's pretty conducive to winning potential titles. Harden and smart drafting/cap management turned into Howard, and bada bing, contender, with more assets still (mostly Asik) to trade for better pieces.

Except Houston never tanked.

[LooseCannon]

Well, Houston gathered assets and turned a fringe starter and 2 lottery picks into James Harden, that's pretty conducive to winning potential titles. Harden and smart drafting/cap management turned into Howard, and bada bing, contender, with more assets still (mostly Asik) to trade for better pieces.

Given the state of the Celtics roster, Houston is a much better model than OKC for how Ainge should turn the team around and open up the next window.

[indeedproceed]

Is the OP an attempt at trolling? Or is the obsession with lottery picks so deep that all else is inconsequential. Happening to have a lottery pick does not itself win championships any more than hapopening to have Kenyan citizenship will guarantee victory at the Boston Marathon

Well, Houston gathered assets and turned a fringe starter and 2 lottery picks into James Harden, that's pretty conducive to winning potential titles. Harden and smart drafting/cap management turned into Howard, and bada bing, contender, with more assets still (mostly Asik) to trade for better pieces.

Except Houston never tanked.

They finished outside the playoffs for what, 3 years? Wouldn't really call that attempting to contend.

[indeedproceed]

Well, Houston gathered assets and turned a fringe starter and 2 lottery picks into James Harden, that's pretty conducive to winning potential titles. Harden and smart drafting/cap management turned into Howard, and bada bing, contender, with more assets still (mostly Asik) to trade for better pieces.

Given the state of the Celtics roster, Houston is a much better model than OKC for how Ainge should turn the team around and open up the next window.

Yeah it hinges on Rondo, if we keep him in my opinion, it's a harder row to hoe, but it's possible. If we trade him, that's another potentially longer road, and is mostly a numbers/luck game, but there's a fair amount of luck involved with voluntarily staying in purgatory. Houston's a blueprint, kind of, but Milwaukee's a potential result. Just like OKC is a blueprint, but Charlotte is a potential result.

[Yogi]

They finished outside the playoffs for what, 3 years? Wouldn't really call that attempting to contend.

Neither would I, but those two aren't the only choices like the common misconception states.  It's perfectly OK to be an eighth seed or a borderline playoff team as long as you have assets that are maturing and financial flexibility. 

It is only bad if you are a 4-8 seed after maximizing the potential of your team AND have no financial flexibility like the Hawks for the last several years. 

[SparzWizard]

But Ainge, Stevens, and even Sullinger said the Celtics are not tanking!

[Celtics18]

They finished outside the playoffs for what, 3 years? Wouldn't really call that attempting to contend.

Neither would I, but those two aren't the only choices like the common misconception states.  It's perfectly OK to be an eighth seed or a borderline playoff team as long as you have assets that are maturing and financial flexibility. 

It is only bad if you are a 4-8 seed after maximizing the potential of your team AND have no financial flexibility like the Hawks for the last several years.

You seem to have nailed the problem that I have with the premise of this thread and many like it.  For some, the only two positions worth shooting for in any given season seem to be either first or worst. 

Landing in one of the twenty-eight positions in between is not necessarily a lost season, in my opinion.  I agree that if you are not a contender then you want to be in a situation that you can keep improving your roster.  I think the Celtics are in that position and don't have to bottom out as the only hope for getting back to the top. 

I think the playoffs are a legitimate goal to shoot for.  I would love to see this team set that as their goal and reach it.

[More Banners]

I'll bite...

Rajon Rondo. 

• In any series against any team, he could be the series MVP.
• He can orchestrate an offense, maximizing the abilities of the young guys while handling the ball and hiding their limitations

That's probably the main case right there.

Presume solid support from Bradley doing his thing, and Green being made better offensively than we saw at the end of the season by playing healthy with Rondo.  All 3 commit to top perimeter defense.

If we're buying the Rondo/Bradley/Green story, we can buy that we have strong veteran perimeter bench players in Lee, BOgans, and Crash, and we can throw them all at Lebron et. al.  Crash needs to step into a Posey-role, and coaching can do that for him.  He probably hasn't been used quite right in his whole career.  Bringing us to...

Maximizing the Forwards:  The Coaching Connection

WE have an abundance of talent, some size, youth and vets, and a coach with an analytical bent that with find the right combinations for the right situations to squeak out wins early in the season behind solid rebounding (Sully/Hump/KO) and pick/pop play with Sully, KO, and Bass.  We'll have quite a few looks up front, causing matchup problems everywhere, and enough bodies to foul the crap out of anyone who needs to be fouled.

Keys to Winning:  Play off Rondo & Green on Offense, Wallace as versatile supersub, strong play from ensemble cast of Forwards, top perimeter defense, and Rebounds = Rings mentality.

I really do think we have a decent shot at making the playoffs, and in that case it becomes about matchups, health, and the ability of the top of the roster to carry the load, plus efficient and effective role play.  A healthy Rondo and Green are a pretty solid start, our veterans are well experienced, and we have some wildcards in the deack.

Let's Go Celtics!