Author Topic: Jeff Green Concerns  (Read 24417 times)

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Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2013, 02:42:28 PM »

Offline Galeto

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I don't get Green not being much of a passer as a pro either.  He was the playmaking hub of Georgetown's Princeton Offense.  There were doubts about his scoring potential because he seemed to lack an aggressive mindset--similar to Ben McLemore--but there no doubts about his all-around game.  He's been nearly the opposite kind of player he was projected to be: a poor rebounder and minimal playmaker with a scoring mindset.

I put it down to the Princeton Offense.  Something like the NBA-version transformation of Green happened with Caron Butler in Washington when they used the Princeton Offense.  Before he got there, he averaged under 2 assist a game.  He more than doubled his assist average in Eddie Jordan's Princeton Offense, becoming an above average wing playmaker.  The first season under Flip, still in Washington, his assist average dropped in half and has remained there ever since. 

Like Green in college, Butler got a lot of his assists finding cutters along the baseline.  Passing was also part of the play call.  Maybe if Green is explicitly told to pass more, he'll do it and be capable of it.

Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2013, 02:48:09 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I guess the concern is that for the majority of his career, Green has been a pretty mediocre player statistically, both overall and per-minute.  He hasn't shown a lot of improvement until the latter half of last season.  Those statistics coincide with observational passivity.

In March and April, Green was outstanding.  Is he going to build off of that, or will he regress to the player he's been for his career up to this point?



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Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2013, 07:00:59 AM »

Offline TripleOT

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I'm curious to see how Green plays as one of the two best players on an NBA team.  His  numbers as a starter in limited games last season were LeBron-esque (except for assists). 

I'm guessing he puts up big numbers next season,probably with less efficiency as last season, since defenses will key on him more. 

Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2013, 07:10:38 AM »

Offline 2short

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Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2013, 02:09:56 PM »

Offline McHales Pits

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like Boris, i too am a bit perplexed why he hasn't shown the playmaking skills he was supposed to have coming in from college. i mean, wasn't that the scouting report on him? i remember reading something along the lines of he wouldn't be the type to fill up buckets, but he was a great passer and playmaker. hopefully we'll see more of that going into next season.

I still think he is a better passer than he is given credit for.  But he is not a playmaker.  He doesn't have the handle for it.  Ultimately, that is what holds back his offense in general.  He is a very mediocre ballhandler, which doesn't allow him to do much off the dribble, other than straight ahead drives, lowering his head and using his length and quickness to blow guy players, or stepbacks. 

I do think he can be a solid passer out of the post, and he is good swinging the ball.  But that is not the type of guy you run the offense through.

The bolded text sums it up perfectly. His offense relies upon mismatches and spot-up opportunities. It's easy for him to shoot over a 6'5" SF and its easy for him to blow by a 250 lb PF. He is also a good/very good spot up shooter so he can knock down shots if the ball handler(s) on the floor can find him with space.

However, that type of game leads to bouts with inconsistency (hmmm...sound familiar with Jeff?). Some nights the matchups in his favor will be there and other nights they won't.

What Jeff truly needs to improve upon to maximize his offensive potential is his ball-handling. Being a better ball-handler would allow for him to exploit defenses in a wider variety of ways (off-the-dribble, passing, stepback jumpers, & in the post) and to create his own shot. Pierce was such a consistent scorer because he had the ability to create his own shot - a skill that Green does not possess at this time.

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Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2013, 11:32:39 PM »

Offline Galeto

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One thing about Green and being a ballhandler on picks is that I thought he wouldn't be capable in those situations and then when he was used in them later in the year, he didn't look too bad.  If anything, picks will help Green go to his right against wing defenders.  He was also unselfish in them like he was back in his set plays of the Princeton Offense. 

Doc was pretty dogmatic about his judgment of a player's pick and roll ability.  If he didn't think a player would be good in them, he didn't really give them much if a chance.  For instance, he denied Ray Freaking Allen's request for more pick and roll opporunities, even though he  was a good pick and roll player before coming to the Celtics and was a good one last year in Miami.  Maybe he should've given Green more of a chance in them.  This is another reason I'm glad Doc is no longer here.

Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2013, 11:41:03 PM »

Offline moiso

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like Boris, i too am a bit perplexed why he hasn't shown the playmaking skills he was supposed to have coming in from college. i mean, wasn't that the scouting report on him? i remember reading something along the lines of he wouldn't be the type to fill up buckets, but he was a great passer and playmaker. hopefully we'll see more of that going into next season.

I still think he is a better passer than he is given credit for.  But he is not a playmaker.  He doesn't have the handle for it.  Ultimately, that is what holds back his offense in general.  He is a very mediocre ballhandler, which doesn't allow him to do much off the dribble, other than straight ahead drives, lowering his head and using his length and quickness to blow guy players, or stepbacks. 

I do think he can be a solid passer out of the post, and he is good swinging the ball.  But that is not the type of guy you run the offense through.

The bolded text sums it up perfectly. His offense relies upon mismatches and spot-up opportunities. It's easy for him to shoot over a 6'5" SF and its easy for him to blow by a 250 lb PF. He is also a good/very good spot up shooter so he can knock down shots if the ball handler(s) on the floor can find him with space.

However, that type of game leads to bouts with inconsistency (hmmm...sound familiar with Jeff?). Some nights the matchups in his favor will be there and other nights they won't.

What Jeff truly needs to improve upon to maximize his offensive potential is his ball-handling. Being a better ball-handler would allow for him to exploit defenses in a wider variety of ways (off-the-dribble, passing, stepback jumpers, & in the post) and to create his own shot. Pierce was such a consistent scorer because he had the ability to create his own shot - a skill that Green does not possess at this time.

Pierce dictated the way defenses played...
Green plays the way defense dictates...
Nice post.  TP.

Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2013, 12:19:02 AM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Mediocre ballhandler? When Rondo was out, he was one of our second options who could take the ball up the court. Better than Bass or KG n' others. Better than Sully, Humphries. What's wrong with his ballhandling?
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Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2013, 12:27:19 AM »

Offline BigAlTheFuture

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Mediocre ballhandler? When Rondo was out, he was one of our second options who could take the ball up the court. Better than Bass or KG n' others. Better than Sully, Humphries. What's wrong with his ballhandling?

Well... Jeff Green should be a better ballhandler than big men like KG and Bass. He was pretty much forced into the ball handling-role when Rondo was out given the fact that Bradley, Lee, and Terry were unreliable ball handlers at the guard position. Jeff Green is in no way an elite ballhandler.
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Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2013, 12:28:01 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Mediocre ballhandler? When Rondo was out, he was one of our second options who could take the ball up the court. Better than Bass or KG n' others. Better than Sully, Humphries. What's wrong with his ballhandling?

Well, you did just state that he was a good ball handler, but then compared him to 4 power forwards. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a guy who is supposed to be our starting 3.

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Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2013, 12:36:47 AM »

Offline Galeto

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Mediocre ballhandler? When Rondo was out, he was one of our second options who could take the ball up the court. Better than Bass or KG n' others. Better than Sully, Humphries. What's wrong with his ballhandling?

Well, you did just state that he was a good ball handler, but then compared him to 4 power forwards. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a guy who is supposed to be our starting 3.

He is a big Bass fan.  Maybe he considers Bass a mediocre ballhandler and if Green's better than him, then that would make him at least an above average ballhandler.  Otherwise, I don't know.

Green has almost no left-handed dribble, tends to fumble his dribble when trying to go at full speed, can't break down his dribble in tight spaces and has zero crafty dribble moves like an inside-out dribble or crossover (two things that I can't imagine a NBA swingman with scoring ability not having in his bag of tricks).

I read he's a good or even elite ballhandler "for his size" a lot and I don't understand how that's relevant.  It's his position and mode of scoring that's relevant.  And even for his size, his handle doesn't compare to those of Durant, Lebron or even Carmelo. 

Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2013, 09:52:24 AM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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I'm not particularly sure about what you guys are saying, but I don't think Jeff is a mediocre ballhandler because we've already entrusted him to take the ball up the court which he can do just as well as AB (who was technically our PG). Not only that but he's a pretty good scorer/finisher at the rim and you can't exactly get to the rim without dribbling. He doesn't turn the ball over that much, and he's clearly not elite, but he's good enough for a SF. He can improve but I don't think he's mediocre in any regard. Plus, he can play the 4 when OKC/we went/go smallball and thus it's fair to compare him to Bass or KG or Sully or Humphries, etc.

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Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2013, 11:37:24 AM »

Offline vinnie

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I guess the concern is that for the majority of his career, Green has been a pretty mediocre player statistically, both overall and per-minute.  He hasn't shown a lot of improvement until the latter half of last season.  Those statistics coincide with observational passivity.

In March and April, Green was outstanding.  Is he going to build off of that, or will he regress to the player he's been for his career up to this point?

As usual, Roy nails it. And, as others have said, if Jeff Green is going to be this team's go to guy, then 25-30 wins is probably right.

Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2013, 11:56:37 AM »

Offline manl_lui

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I guess the concern is that for the majority of his career, Green has been a pretty mediocre player statistically, both overall and per-minute.  He hasn't shown a lot of improvement until the latter half of last season.  Those statistics coincide with observational passivity.

In March and April, Green was outstanding.  Is he going to build off of that, or will he regress to the player he's been for his career up to this point?

As usual, Roy nails it. And, as others have said, if Jeff Green is going to be this team's go to guy, then 25-30 wins is probably right.

If Green can build off from the 2nd half of the season, I can definitely see him averaging 25/7/5 next year...

I think the whole Green has been a mediocre player throughout his career is blown out of proportions. He was the third option behind Durant and Westbrook in OKC, and he still averaged around 14 ppg. In Boston, he was behind Pierce/Allen/KG/Rondo...

Last year during the second half of the season, we saw a more aggressive Green and a more confidence Green...
If he can build off that, then I agree with KG...he can and potentially can be a top 5 SF, and with Rondo, that is something to be proud of going forward.

Re: Jeff Green Concerns
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2013, 11:59:53 AM »

Online Donoghus

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I think Green can be a good third banana on a solid playoff team that can go multiple rounds.

The more & more you ask out him, the worst the basketball team you'll end up with, IMO.

If you're asking him to be THE guy, then I think you're looking at a lottery bound basketball team.


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