Author Topic: Let's talk about picks  (Read 4718 times)

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Let's talk about picks
« on: July 24, 2013, 02:33:56 AM »

Offline nostar

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Let's assume that the Net's picks are in the bottom 3rd of the first round. Actually let's go one step further and take the worst case scenario. Say that the Nets are in the top 5-6 teams in the NBA and their picks are between 25-30. In the last 10 years here are the players picked between 25-30 that made an impact in the NBA:

[I'm skipping the last three drafts for obvious reasons, forgive me if I missed your favorite]

2001 -
25 Gerald Wallace*
26 Samuel Dalembert
28 Tony Parker**
30 Gilbert Arenas*

2002 -
26 John Salmons

2003 -
25 Carlos Delfino
27 Kendrick Perkins
28 Leandro Barbosa
29 Josh Howard*

2004 -
25 Tony Allen
26 Kevin Martin
27 Beno Udrih

2005 -
26 Jason Maxiel
30 David Lee*

2007 -
26 Aaron Brooks
27 Aaron Afflalo
28 Tiago Splitter

2008 -
25 Nic Batum
26 George Hill

2009 -
26 Taj Gibson

2010 -
28 Greivis Vasquez


So assuming that the Nets are an amazing team for the next 5 years...here is some quick math. 2001-2010 is 10 years which means there are 60 picks. There are 16 decent-to-good role players, 4 all-stars and 1 MVP candidate. Based on this (admittedly small sample) here is what I've deduced:

There is a 35% chance we get a good player out of each of the Nets picks. That is pretty high and Danny's draft record is very solid. That 35% breaks down to:

- 26.7% chance we get a mid-level NBA talent
- 6.7% chance we get an all-star
- 1.7% chance we draft an MVP caliber player

Multiply each of those percentages by 3 and you have our (worst case) chances for all 3 picks. Now consider that 2014 (and 2015) are considered deep draft classes and it's looking like we will have some valuable assets in these picks. Not only that but there is no guarantee that the Nets are a top-5 team. With aging players they might have a mediocre regular season (like the C's did this past season).

This is all to say that the Nets gave up a lot to field an all-star team this season. Ainge made the right decision in moving on when the best offer presented itself. We now have two 1st round picks in 4 out of the next 5 drafts. I'm excited for the prospect of watching young Celtics basketball for the next 2-3 years. I hope you guys are too.

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2013, 02:45:05 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Fair enough, but this assumes Danny makes the perfect selections in X future drafts. He did, however, draft Melo over Ezeli (even Perry), traded Books for JuJuanna, and had the benefit of seeing the progress Rondo and Perk under the tutelage of 3 HOFers.

Pretty big fan of the Stevens hiring, and KO is looking to have been a solid move... but I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume DA will be spot-on in his future decisions. To be fair, no one could be.

I'm not optimistic about late 1sts providing/contributing much in the future, unfortunately. Seems very rare unless a guy finds himself in THE perfection situation for his development/skill set (i.e., everyone ever drafted by the Spurs).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 02:50:59 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
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Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2013, 03:06:30 AM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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Fair enough, but this assumes Danny makes the perfect selections in X future drafts. He did, however, draft Melo over Ezeli (even Perry), traded Books for JuJuanna, and had the benefit of seeing the progress Rondo and Perk under the tutelage of 3 HOFers.

Pretty big fan of the Stevens hiring, and KO is looking to have been a solid move... but I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume DA will be spot-on in his future decisions. To be fair, no one could be.

I'm not optimistic about late 1sts providing/contributing much in the future, unfortunately. Seems very rare unless a guy finds himself in THE perfection situation for his development/skill set (i.e., everyone ever drafted by the Spurs).

Agree with Ezeli, not necessarily with Perry. PJIII could end up like Anthony Randolph for all we know at this point.

Also, Parsons, not Brooks, is the mistake. But quite a few GMs didn't see Parsons coming.

The worst mistake has to be Giddens. It's not just DeAndre, it's Pekovic and a few others that we missed out on.

At least he draft 3 point guards with multiple picks, end up putting too much faith on the wrong one and a hole in the EXACT position he drafted 3 players for for several years.

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2013, 11:10:37 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Fair enough, but this assumes Danny makes the perfect selections in X future drafts. He did, however, draft Melo over Ezeli (even Perry), traded Books for JuJuanna, and had the benefit of seeing the progress Rondo and Perk under the tutelage of 3 HOFers.

Pretty big fan of the Stevens hiring, and KO is looking to have been a solid move... but I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume DA will be spot-on in his future decisions. To be fair, no one could be.

I'm not optimistic about late 1sts providing/contributing much in the future, unfortunately. Seems very rare unless a guy finds himself in THE perfection situation for his development/skill set (i.e., everyone ever drafted by the Spurs).
I don't think the OP is assuming this at all.  He breaks down the percentages of good players that fell to these spots and aligns them with the odds that we will draft contributers of varying levels (based on the average GM).  If DA is better than average, then his odds of finding "players" are a bit higher.  If DA is below average, then they are a bit lower.

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 11:42:43 AM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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good post and good work. i would add that the key is not the "nba average" but ainge's average of successful picks in that area RELATIVE to the nba average.

history shows that ainge is well above average in selecting mid to late 1st round talent that turns into a nba starter. i have confidence that ainge can use the picks to get talent via the draft directly, by trading the picks, or by trading the players he picks.

ainge has set the celtics future up so that he can play to one of his strengths. smart man.
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Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2013, 11:58:39 AM »

Offline oldutican

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I don't see that long a period of the Nets being that good. How long will KG play & PP play at a high level (or at all.) Johnson is 32. I don't think Nets will ever be bad as long as ownership will spend on FAs. But not sure they could remain a top team.

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2013, 12:02:08 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think the Nets are likely to be a top team for the next 2 years but after that, a drop off is likely I think.  The 2014 pick is likely in the end of the first round but in 2016 and 2018, these picks could be much better.  We also have a chance to swap picks in 2017 when hopefully we are starting to get good and the Nets not.

Best case scenario is that they are a rebuilding team by 2016, a rebuiding team with no picks.  They may just restock by spending money but I think the chances they are bad 2016-2018 are better than the chances they are good.

That is 3 picks with a good chance I think that 1 or 2 of them are lottery pick but it is possible all 3 are lottery picks.

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2013, 12:51:38 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Fair enough, but this assumes Danny makes the perfect selections in X future drafts. He did, however, draft Melo over Ezeli (even Perry), traded Books for JuJuanna, and had the benefit of seeing the progress Rondo and Perk under the tutelage of 3 HOFers.

Everyone makes mistakes but, arguably, Danny Ainge makes fewer mistakes than other GMs.

Ainge has credited analytics for being a reason why he drafted Rondo.  I think his general thought process on who he picks is more sound than the decision-making of other teams.
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Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2013, 02:36:36 PM »

Offline nostar

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Fair enough, but this assumes Danny makes the perfect selections in X future drafts. He did, however, draft Melo over Ezeli (even Perry), traded Books for JuJuanna, and had the benefit of seeing the progress Rondo and Perk under the tutelage of 3 HOFers.

I don't think the OP is assuming this at all.  He breaks down the percentages of good players that fell to these spots and aligns them with the odds that we will draft contributers of varying levels (based on the average GM).  If DA is better than average, then his odds of finding "players" are a bit higher.  If DA is below average, then they are a bit lower.

Yeah I'm not assuming Danny is a great drafter, although if you read this whole post you'll find out it wouldn't be wrong to do so. I was giving averages like droopdog said.

It's easy to look at Danny's misses and say that he might miss in the future. Let's take a look at DA's track record as Celtic's GM (on a scale from Kahn to 10). I don't like to focus on who a GM missed. It isn't a very good way to judge them because the error rate is so high. Every GM has missed out on a great player, even the lauded Sam Presti. (Presti missed on Marc Gasol in  2007, like everyone, along with all of the same smaller misses Ainge had in 2008, for example)

[Sticking to the 1st round as the 2nd round is essentially a crap shoot and I have limited time]

2003: Danny's first draft
Traded Troy Bell (#16) and Dahntay Jones (20) for Marcus Banks (#13) and Kendrick Perkins (#27).

While it's easy to say "well Ainge whiffed on David West, Leandro Barbosa, and Boris Diaw" it's not a great method of evaluating any GM. At least 10 GMs whiffed on David West (Rick Sund of Seattle did it twice). Ainge drafted a couple of guys and turned them into Marcus Banks (bust) and Kendrick Perkins (NBA role player). So that is 2 picks and 1 hit. 50% so far. Also Perkins was moved for Jeff Green, a #5 overall pick.

2004: Ainge's (second?) best draft

3 first round picks, 3 really good players. Jefferson is a fringe all-star candidate. Allen is a top NBA perimeter defender and West is a talented screw-up. Can't argue with any of these picks, especially considering this was the draft that set us up to get KG and Ray. I'd call this 3/3 but I could see an argument for 2/3 considering West is a headcase. I'd argue West helped us get Ray but I can see both sides.

2005: Slump!

This draft represents 'bad Danny' about as well as any. Ainge likes to chance on athleticism a bit. Here is the argument I'll make in his defense, not statistically but as an aside. Green was a bust, I concede that, but there wasn't a lot in this draft after Danny Granger came off the board. Gomes was also a really nice grab at #50 and ended up being a part in the KG trade. So while this was a bad draft for Danny, it wasn't a set back in my eyes.

2006: Why Danny is great

This draft was mediocre. It was a low-talent, bad odds draft. The 2013 draft will look at lot like this in 5 years I expect. 3-5 guys who are starters, 2-all stars then dregs. Ainge traded Foye and some stuff for Telfair. He also traded a future 1st (Rudy Fernandez) for the rights to Rajon Rondo. Oh and he turned a 2nd rounder into Leon Powe. Ainge went in to this draft with the 7th overall pick (Foye) and walked away with Rondo, Telfair and Leon Powe. Talk about turning nothing into a big something.

2007: Tanking for nothing...or something.

This was a trade draft for Ainge as the lotto didn't go our way. Ainge picked up Jeff Green parlaying that into Ray Allen, and along with more GM gymnastics, banner #18. Oh and as a side note he got Jeff Green back in 2011 for a previous #27 overall pick, Kendrick Perkins.

2008: We won, so we get last pick

This might have been Ainge's worst draft to date. There were 5-6 players worth drafting at pick #30. This is a draft I can see people criticizing Ainge for his misses. Pekovic, Jordan, Asik, LRMM and even Dragic. Again I don't think this is a good method for evaluating a GM but I can see how one might be tempted to use it, especially because we desperately needed a healthy center for the next 4 years and there are 3 there. Oh well everyone lays an egg here and there. [See the aforementioned Sam Presti comment]

2009: No first rounder pick (trade to MIN to KG)

Minny picked Wayne Ellington. The best player left was probably Danny Green. Worth it.

2010: Back on the horse

Ainge knocked this one out of the park. I know AB isn't a superstar but just look at the 11 picks in the first round after AB and then the 30 picks after that. There is no one. This was a huge, I repeat, huge pick. Just google for "Bradley blocks Wade".

2011: The trade that wasn't

We traded Brooks for Johnson and a 2014 2nd round pick. We've since traded that 2nd rounder to move up for Olynyk and reacquired Brooks. No harm no foul? Johnson was a bust.

2012: Draft a big man

We were gifted Sullinger on a draft day slide and we took Melo as a Perkins-style project. Not a terrible draft. Too early to tell really. I'm personally pretty high on Sully.

2013: KO!

Also too early. But if summer league is any indication of his success...it's not but hey I like to stay positive :)

So some quick summation:

Ainge has made 12 first round draft choices. Not all of them played for us. Of the 12, I'd say 7 of them have had productive NBA careers. That is a 58% success rate. Add in that he's made trades to keep us competitive over the last 6 seasons and that he traded for our current franchise player, former franchise player and we have 9 first round picks in the next 5 years...I have nothing but faith in Danny Ainge.

Here are some links for good reads that I used in compiling this:

Danny Draft History
GM Rankings
BOS Draft History

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2013, 07:28:37 PM »

Offline sofutomygaha

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There is a 35% chance we get a good player out of each of the Nets picks. That is pretty high and Danny's draft record is very solid. That 35% breaks down to:

- 26.7% chance we get a mid-level NBA talent
- 6.7% chance we get an all-star
- 1.7% chance we draft an MVP caliber player

Multiply each of those percentages by 3 and you have our (worst case) chances for all 3 picks. Now consider that 2014 (and 2015) are considered deep draft classes and it's looking like we will have some valuable assets in these picks. Not only that but there is no guarantee that the Nets are a top-5 team. With aging players they might have a mediocre regular season (like the C's did this past season).


Excellent post and TP, but I'm going to take the nerd-dom to it's logical conclusion. Based on the bootstrap sample you just put together there, our odds are:

- 73% we get AT LEAST ONE NBA average starter type player
- ...but only 4% that we get THREE of them players

- 5% we land a future MVP

- 19% we land AT LEAST ONE future all star
- ... but 27% we get NOTHING

we should keep these odds in mind when we react to the likely outcome that the picks are traded! The odds of complete failure are, from nostar's reasoning, actually higher than the odds of getting a new all-star.

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2013, 07:41:48 PM »

Online Birdman

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great post
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2013, 09:07:54 PM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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Excellent post and TP, but I'm going to take the nerd-dom to it's logical conclusion. Based on the bootstrap sample you just put together there, our odds are:

- 73% we get AT LEAST ONE NBA average starter type player
- ...but only 4% that we get THREE of them players

- 5% we land a future MVP

- 19% we land AT LEAST ONE future all star
- ... but 27% we get NOTHING

we should keep these odds in mind when we react to the likely outcome that the picks are traded! The odds of complete failure are, from nostar's reasoning, actually higher than the odds of getting a new all-star.

lol what's wrong with that, though?

Big Baby Davis was a huge success. Fringe starter. Ainge also got fringe borderline NBA players in E'Twaun Moore and Semih who were picked super late in the draft. With the 55th and 60th picks you can't hope for much more value than that.

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2013, 09:48:26 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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let me dig up an earlier post i made on danny's draft batting average versus the rest of the nba.

most of my numbers are from this draftexpress article about historic success of drafted players from 1980-2001. now ainge's drafts are not in this period, but it is the best i could do.
 
http://www.draftexpr...al-Trends-1362/
 
draft express shows that in the bottom 1/2 of the draft (basically picks 16-30 now) about 49% of those players chosen were either marginal players or out of the nba.
 
conversely, about 21% of those players drafted in the bottom 1/2 of the draft were stars or solid starters.
 
ainge has had 10 picks in that range as GM of the celtics. ainge fits the league average if 2 of these picks are solid starters or stars.
 
but, easily 6 of these 10 picks are starts or solid starters. conclusion? ainge is a draft stud.

BOTTOM 1/2 OF THE FIRST ROUND (PICKS 16-30)
league average success = 21%
ainge success  = 60%

 
next, ainge has drafted in the top half of the draft only twice (#13 & #15), here he is at 50% sucess, but to be fair they were picks #13 and #15, and only 33% of the second 1/4 of draftees are starts or solid starters. 

TOP 2/4 OF THE FIRST ROUND (PICKS 8-15)
league average success = 33%
ainge success = 50%

 
now what about the second round picks by ainge? harder to say and i could not find stats for the second round. but all in all, of ainge's 11 2nd round picks, i believe it is safe to say that 3 are useful and 8 are duds. (i put powe as a dud due to his injuries, but a tough call.)

SECOND ROUND PICKS
ainge success = 27% which is higher than the nba success rate for the 2nd half of the 1st round! (21%)
 
so what does all this mean? for me, it means "in danny i trust" come draft day.
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Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2013, 11:18:36 PM »

Offline nostar

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I'm going to take the nerd-dom to it's logical conclusion. Based on the bootstrap sample you just put together there, our odds are:

- 73% we get AT LEAST ONE NBA average starter type player
- ...but only 4% that we get THREE of them players

- 5% we land a future MVP

- 19% we land AT LEAST ONE future all star
- ... but 27% we get NOTHING

we should keep these odds in mind when we react to the likely outcome that the picks are traded! The odds of complete failure are, from nostar's reasoning, actually higher than the odds of getting a new all-star.

I don't see exactly how you got those #s but I'd like to know if you have a moment.

So far as I know we have a 35% chance of drafting an NBA caliber player between 25-30 each year based on the assumption that the Nets will be a top-6 NBA team until 2018 (laughable I know). I'd say our chances of getting at least one NBA caliber starter is 100%. As far as getting 3 of them, our chances would be 35% each time so the likelihood of us hitting all 3 times would be 11.6%, or twice as likely as the Blazers getting the #1 pick in 2007.

so what does all this mean? for me, it means "in danny i trust" come draft day.

This is where I'm at too. I also have a strange trust in his talent evaluation of NBA players. His trading over the decade he's be GM has been superb. I should make another 1000 word post on Ainge's trade history but it would be a bit too off topic. Maybe next week :)

Nice article btw!

Re: Let's talk about picks
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2013, 12:38:35 AM »

Offline lightspeed5

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There is a 35% chance we get a good player out of each of the Nets picks. That is pretty high and Danny's draft record is very solid. That 35% breaks down to:

- 26.7% chance we get a mid-level NBA talent
- 6.7% chance we get an all-star
- 1.7% chance we draft an MVP caliber player

Multiply each of those percentages by 3 and you have our (worst case) chances for all 3 picks. Now consider that 2014 (and 2015) are considered deep draft classes and it's looking like we will have some valuable assets in these picks. Not only that but there is no guarantee that the Nets are a top-5 team. With aging players they might have a mediocre regular season (like the C's did this past season).


Excellent post and TP, but I'm going to take the nerd-dom to it's logical conclusion. Based on the bootstrap sample you just put together there, our odds are:

- 73% we get AT LEAST ONE NBA average starter type player
- ...but only 4% that we get THREE of them players

- 5% we land a future MVP

- 19% we land AT LEAST ONE future all star
- ... but 27% we get NOTHING

we should keep these odds in mind when we react to the likely outcome that the picks are traded! The odds of complete failure are, from nostar's reasoning, actually higher than the odds of getting a new all-star.
i doubt the pick would be traded. heres why: players are currently being OVERPAID. to trade a young stud rookie contract for a currently overpaid guard for example would be rolling the dice to win now, which would be the wrong direction to take.