Building around Rajon Rondo. Who fits?

[GreenEnvy]

Would I be wrong in tossing in the suggestion that Rondo`s offence would be helped immensely by screen setting big in the Jason Collins mold?

Teams almost exclusively go under the screen and are willing to let him take the shot. Not only is he a below average shooter, he has such a prolonged release that there is plenty of time to bother the shot.

They sag off him without screens already.

Won't make a difference IMO.

[eugen]

Building around Rajon Rondo. Who fits?

Faverani

[D.o.s.]

I'm not an expert so don't take my word as the gospel.  I'm just giving you my interpretation of what others have said over the years. 

Rondo's biggest weakness has been that he's somewhat of a liability on offense if he doesn't have the ball.  He's a below average shooter.  Prior to his injury he seemed to be improving, but defenders don't respect his shot... they often slack off him entirely.  But back before his injury, Rondo was really good at penetrating with his quickness/athleticism and finishing in the lane.   So it seemed to me that there had been a push to surround Rondo with shooters.  You can't pack the lane with low post players, because it prevents Rondo from penetrating.  If there are low post players in the lane, that mean's there are post defenders in the lane... and thus it's difficult for Rondo to drive without getting swatted. 

So the idea had been to get big men who could shoot mid-range shots.  That's KG's game.  KG wasn't a post player.  He knocked down mid-range shots.  Having a center who pulled defenders out of the paint was great for Rondo.   Meanwhile, we invested a ton of time in teaching Glen Davis how to knock down mid-range shots for that very reason... and when Davis proved to be inconsistent, we traded for Brandon Bass.  The one thing Brandon Bass does well is knock down mid-range shots.  We also obviously benefited from having arguably the most dangerous shooter in the world out there with Rondo... Ray Allen.  Having Ray spread the floor was great for Rondo.   Paul Pierce was a "jack of all trades" on offense and commanded attention at all times.

Really then, if you were building a perfect team around Rondo, you'd want a star shooter like Ray, a star offensive player like Pierce... and two bigs who could pull defenders out of the paint (KG and Bass).  That allowed Rondo to control the ball most of the time, and if the offense was moving correctly he'd always have a weapon to kick the ball to for an open shot.  Tons of assists.  If defenders were sticking with their man, Rondo had the option of burning his defender and going into the paint... which was open thanks to his big men shooters.

I seem to think that was what draft experts were referring to when they said that Ainge drafting Kelly Olynyk signals that Boston is leaning towards keeping Rondo.   Olynyk is a poor defender, but he projects to be a 7 footer who can knock down shots from any range.  That fits in well with the kind of player Rondo needs to be successful. 

It was interesting that last year prior to his injury, Boston was actually below .500.  I don't know how much of that you can blame on losing Ray... but it's interesting to note that guys like Jason Terry need the ball in order to be successful.  If Terry had the ball, nobody is respecting Rondo enough to open up space for Terry.  This just goes back to the idea that Rondo is kind of a liability if he isn't holding the ball at all times.  And this is partially why I was concerned that Rondo and Jeff Green wouldn't really work that well since Jeff Green seemed to be at his best when he was allowed to create for himself and penetrate into the lane.   It might be an overblown concern, but it's not like ROndo would be a serious threat to knock down a three if Green kicked it out to him. 

This all forms the crux of why I don't think you can build a team around Rondo as the best player.  He's a very good player who often has amazing games... but he's a little overrated and might be a bit of a product of the players he has had around him.  We'll see what happens, I guess.

The counter-argument to this is that our offense looked it's very best with a lineup of Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG and Shaq.  But even at Shaq's age, Shaq was still Shaq.  It was impossible for that guy not to get into the low post.

The second counter-argument to this is, "yah, but what about when we had Perk, etc"... but those teams were never really "Rondo" teams.  We weren't successful because of our offense... we were successful, because we had the best defense in the league.  A defense built around Kevin Garnett.

Well said.

[RJ87]

I'm not an expert so don't take my word as the gospel.  I'm just giving you my interpretation of what others have said over the years. 

Rondo's biggest weakness has been that he's somewhat of a liability on offense if he doesn't have the ball.  He's a below average shooter.  Prior to his injury he seemed to be improving, but defenders don't respect his shot... they often slack off him entirely.  But back before his injury, Rondo was really good at penetrating with his quickness/athleticism and finishing in the lane.   So it seemed to me that there had been a push to surround Rondo with shooters.  You can't pack the lane with low post players, because it prevents Rondo from penetrating.  If there are low post players in the lane, that mean's there are post defenders in the lane... and thus it's difficult for Rondo to drive without getting swatted. 

So the idea had been to get big men who could shoot mid-range shots.  That's KG's game.  KG wasn't a post player.  He knocked down mid-range shots.  Having a center who pulled defenders out of the paint was great for Rondo.   Meanwhile, we invested a ton of time in teaching Glen Davis how to knock down mid-range shots for that very reason... and when Davis proved to be inconsistent, we traded for Brandon Bass.  The one thing Brandon Bass does well is knock down mid-range shots.  We also obviously benefited from having arguably the most dangerous shooter in the world out there with Rondo... Ray Allen.  Having Ray spread the floor was great for Rondo.   Paul Pierce was a "jack of all trades" on offense and commanded attention at all times.

Really then, if you were building a perfect team around Rondo, you'd want a star shooter like Ray, a star offensive player like Pierce... and two bigs who could pull defenders out of the paint (KG and Bass).  That allowed Rondo to control the ball most of the time, and if the offense was moving correctly he'd always have a weapon to kick the ball to for an open shot.  Tons of assists.  If defenders were sticking with their man, Rondo had the option of burning his defender and going into the paint... which was open thanks to his big men shooters.

I seem to think that was what draft experts were referring to when they said that Ainge drafting Kelly Olynyk signals that Boston is leaning towards keeping Rondo.   Olynyk is a poor defender, but he projects to be a 7 footer who can knock down shots from any range.  That fits in well with the kind of player Rondo needs to be successful. 

It was interesting that last year prior to his injury, Boston was actually below .500.  I don't know how much of that you can blame on losing Ray... but it's interesting to note that guys like Jason Terry need the ball in order to be successful.  If Terry had the ball, nobody is respecting Rondo enough to open up space for Terry.  This just goes back to the idea that Rondo is kind of a liability if he isn't holding the ball at all times.  And this is partially why I was concerned that Rondo and Jeff Green wouldn't really work that well since Jeff Green seemed to be at his best when he was allowed to create for himself and penetrate into the lane.   It might be an overblown concern, but it's not like ROndo would be a serious threat to knock down a three if Green kicked it out to him. 

This all forms the crux of why I don't think you can build a team around Rondo as the best player.  He's a very good player who often has amazing games... but he's a little overrated and might be a bit of a product of the players he has had around him.  We'll see what happens, I guess.

The counter-argument to this is that our offense looked it's very best with a lineup of Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG and Shaq.  But even at Shaq's age, Shaq was still Shaq.  It was impossible for that guy not to get into the low post.

The second counter-argument to this is, "yah, but what about when we had Perk, etc"... but those teams were never really "Rondo" teams.  We weren't successful because of our offense... we were successful, because we had the best defense in the league.  A defense built around Kevin Garnett.

A few things I'd like to nitpick.

You already touched on one of them, Shaq. Definitely not a big who can shoot, but he thrived off of pick & roll opportunities with Rondo and post ups. I don't think you need two bigs who can shoot necessarily. You can have a guy like Tyson Chandler in a line up with Rondo and I still think that's as deadly a combination out of the pick & roll as Rondo and KG out of the pick & pop.

Then there's Avery Bradley. Rondo arguably had the most consistent stretch of his career when Avery moved into the starting line up midway through the 11/12 season.  Yes, Avery was hitting 3's at a solid clip off of kick outs to the corner, but his bread and butter were random cuts to the rim. 

And Jeff - I keep hearing he needs the ball in his hands a lot to be effective and it won't work with Rondo. Rajon seemed to work just fine with Paul Pierce, who also had the ball in his hands a great deal. I think the keys to Jeff and Rondo working long-term are a.) Develop an effective 1-3 pick & roll similar to what Pierce and Rondo ran at times b.) Jeff needs to become a better ballhandler and facilitator for his teammates - I think he's below average in that regard at this point in his career - and I think that's going to be the biggest difference between the Rondo/Pierce dynamic and the Rondo/Jeff tandem.

Basically to sum up my point: I don't think a "Rajon Rondo team" is as cut & dry as some think. 

[BASS_THUMPER]

rondo running thangs
he didnt want ray
bye bye
he didnt want paul or kg
bye bye
he didnt want to listen to doc
bye bye

im surprised rondo is not sitting next to ainge at the summer league games
 
rondo wants to run and thats what he is getting

[tarheelsxxiii]

A strong, tough defense. Shooters with solid BBIQ. A closer would be nice...  doesn't need to be all that complicated, otherwise.

[lightspeed5]

Until Rondo is paired up with a superstar, we're not winning anything.

[TeamGreen.dm]

Until Rondo is paired up with a superstar, we're not winning anything.

I think thats false. Too me Rondo is the superstar we need.

Jeff Green could be the complimentary 20 ppg we could be looking for. His 2nd half of the season gave a hint towards his dynamic ability on offense and he was still sharing minutes.

KO, Sully and Bass are very good pick n pop and pick n roll player which are the type of BigsRR thrives with.

The defense of AB and Crash will also vastly improve the growth of this team. If AB can get back to consistently hitting the catch n shoot 3 that would be the ultimate bonus

So when it comes to the 3 point shooters overall, if Lee, Crawford and AB can be consistent i think we may have enough around RR right now

Those are the players who i think can really help this team suceed and with the exception of Bass and Crash i think it's a great core to keep around RR.

Now it does seem that we downgraded in certain positions, aka KG/Pierce to Olynyk/Green but i think its more of a Youth Movement. The lack of experience of volume minutes will be seen early but I'm really starting to think this team we have now is definitely viable for a playoff spot

[Spilling Green Dye]

The fact that Rondo and Bradley were such a good pairing showed me that it's not as easy to predict who will go well with Rondo and who won't.  Most people, myself included, did not think the two of them together would compliment eachother nearly as well as they do.

That said, I think Rondo mostly needs a big man who can contest the rim, rebound well, and QUICKLY outlet the ball so Rondo can push the ball.  This type of player's defense can cover for the risks that Rondo takes on defense.  For this reason I think Perkins and KG were good fits, but due to injury/age they aren't as much anymore.  A big man who can also get out on transition would be great too.

Honestly, one of the first players that comes to mind is Josh Smith, but he just signed elsewhere.  Dwight Howard too.  Marc Gasol, if available in a year or two, could go well. 

Another type of player who might fit well with Rondo is a deep post player like Zach Randolph.  This would force some of the defense away from Rondo, enabling him to slash to the lane, etc.