Idea: Expand Boston + Detroit trade.Include Rondo and Green to go full tank mode

[paidthecost2betheboss]

Some folks are nuts. Not pointing fingers...just saying some folks are nuts. Out of their minds.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Oh Ya, trading rondo is a great idea..and green too.....why then in 2014...well, maybe we could get a true pg who can run drive and pass...and develop a shot..maybe he'll lead the league in assists, then sign for 8 million less than other star pg's..! Then we can magically sign a great swingman forward, who has played up to and like james worthy type.....and, well, I mean it IS the draft....so we could just get any players we want..we are the Celtics after all...just draft 'em....magic...they will all be there in 2014...."it's all downtown, Goerge...!" oh ya, and we can get them for incredibly short money..sorta like the 6'6" guard we had...he was 235lbs..young and athletic....sorta like someone you would....draft.... Twill..?

[Meadowlark_Scal]

and then there is the luck of getting the #1 pick...and the luck that he isn't odin or bowie.....and the magic of sterns will...as in Orlando  and cleve winning the #1 pick 2 years in a row...fixed...nawwwww....

[aporel#18]

Terrible idea, for several reasons.

First of all, like Meadowlark_Scal said, you are wishing you can get a couple of stars who can be better than Rondo and Green in what, 4-5 years? Not the safest bet, and unless you get Wiggins AND LeBroid (yuck) as a FA, you're set for fail.

Then, you're trading Rondo at his lowest value (post surgery) and not allowing Green to pump his own value through playing as the 1st option on a team. Horrific timing. If you're trading those two, you need to maximize the return. Drummond could develop into the next Karl Malone, but to get him you have to give a lot more because his potential is at a maximum right now. Not the best deal, IMO.

We have a young core, with an All Star and a probable All Star who have at least 6-7 prime years in them. Ainge has traded Doc, KG, The Captain and the Jet to develop his young players and use them plus future picks and expiring contracts to get one or two All Star caliber players.

What I'd do is try to trade Humphries to Philly for their 2014 2nd rounder and a TPE. They are under the salary floor right now, and Hump's contract could be very valuable at the trade deadline. But Celtics need roster spots and the TPE could become gold around next year's Draft. Then, trade Bass for a younger, cheaper player (i.e. Bass to Minnesota for D. Williams) or better, for expiring/TPE + low picks. Move the China Boys  for future protected 2nd rounders or a little TPE. Roster could look like this:

Rondo/Bradley/Pressey?
Lee/Brooks/Crawful
Green/Joseph/Bogans/Mitchell?
Sully/Wallace
Olynyk/Melo/Iverson

You probably cut Joseph and/or Mitchell or trade them for peanuts if they can show some value. Trade Bogans' expiring at the deadline for something useful. You also hope for Wallace to regain his level and show himself as a 1st forward off the bench.

This way, around the 2014 Draft, you have a 12M TPE, 2 first round picks, Wallace, and some young assets to bring another Star to this team, who could compete for the playoffs as soon as the 2014-2015 season.

[dreamgreen]

Roster could look like this:

Rondo/Bradley/Pressey?
Lee/Brooks/Crawful
Green/Joseph/Bogans/Mitchell?
Sully/Wallace
Olynyk/Melo/Iverson

Crawful ROFL!

[EDWARDO]

Good idea, for several reasons.

You do NOT need to get both Wiggins and Lebron, in fact, you don't even need to get Wiggins at all. There are AT LEAST 3 superstar level players in the upcoming draft that you would easily package Rondo and Green for by themselves, let alone also adding a potential All Star center in Drummond. One great young guy to pair with Drummond could be the 1-2 punch of a title contender for 10 years to come.

You are NOT trading Rondo at his lowest possible value if we can do the trade a bit into the season and its clear he's going to back healthy and 100%. You deal him while his very very cheap contract still has value to a trade partner and before he can decide to make clear he won't resign or starts to make things difficult for Stevens.

We have a core of players that will lead us nowhere without a major star, as its been so abundantly clear over the past 30yrs in the NBA. Superstars win titles. A bunch of decent pieces and good role players lead to mediocrity with no hope of getting anywhere.



Actually, I'm not totally gung ho for this trade, but I don't think its a bad one at all. It really depends on how Ainge and the Celtics brass view Rondo's attitude towards this process. I absolutely think Rondo is a GREAT player who could be the 2nd best player on a title team. But, if they think his attitude might turn on the rebuilding process, it would make a lot of sense to do the Drummond deal. If anything, Detroit says no, not us.

[chambers]

Terrible idea, for several reasons.

First of all, like Meadowlark_Scal said, you are wishing you can get a couple of stars who can be better than Rondo and Green in what, 4-5 years? Not the safest bet, and unless you get Wiggins AND LeBroid (yuck) as a FA, you're set for fail.

Then, you're trading Rondo at his lowest value (post surgery) and not allowing Green to pump his own value through playing as the 1st option on a team. Horrific timing. If you're trading those two, you need to maximize the return. Drummond could develop into the next Karl Malone, but to get him you have to give a lot more because his potential is at a maximum right now. Not the best deal, IMO.

We have a young core, with an All Star and a probable All Star who have at least 6-7 prime years in them. Ainge has traded Doc, KG, The Captain and the Jet to develop his young players and use them plus future picks and expiring contracts to get one or two All Star caliber players.

What I'd do is try to trade Humphries to Philly for their 2014 2nd rounder and a TPE. They are under the salary floor right now, and Hump's contract could be very valuable at the trade deadline. But Celtics need roster spots and the TPE could become gold around next year's Draft. Then, trade Bass for a younger, cheaper player (i.e. Bass to Minnesota for D. Williams) or better, for expiring/TPE + low picks. Move the China Boys  for future protected 2nd rounders or a little TPE. Roster could look like this:

Rondo/Bradley/Pressey?
Lee/Brooks/Crawful
Green/Joseph/Bogans/Mitchell?
Sully/Wallace
Olynyk/Melo/Iverson

You probably cut Joseph and/or Mitchell or trade them for peanuts if they can show some value. Trade Bogans' expiring at the deadline for something useful. You also hope for Wallace to regain his level and show himself as a 1st forward off the bench.

This way, around the 2014 Draft, you have a 12M TPE, 2 first round picks, Wallace, and some young assets to bring another Star to this team, who could compete for the playoffs as soon as the 2014-2015 season.

All wonderful in theory, but putting an All Star around Green and Rondo isn't getting us anywhere. We just had 2 all stars next to them- 3 of them at one point and we won a single championship. KG's injury hurt that, but neither Rondo nor Green are franchise level players.
That's the point of this trade- you're blowing it up for a real shot at some franchise players and a draft that's a once in a decade opportunity. The timing is perfect, we are at a crossroads and we can re-tool or blow it up and rebuild from scratch. We've got a few young nice pieces in Sully, Avery, Olynyk. As well as some serious assets in picks+ solid starting small forward + a bench All Star in Rondo. Now if Durant or Lebron were free agents now then well, we've got Rondo and Green. A little work and we may have a real contender.

This draft is that loaded that getting a top 3 pick could greatly improve our chances at a championship.
I always use the example of looking at the past 50 years of NBA champions and teams that made the NBA finals. Even 25 years of history shows the relation to drafting a genuine superstar and making the finals/winning a title.

Go back and find me a finalist team that didn't get there without a home-grown/home drafted kid that was a top 5 pick (or was picked higher in the lottery due to being overseas or young of top 5 caliber). The Pistons did it.
Find me another team.
You can't because only one exists.

The talent in this draft is that serious that I feel we need to put ourselves in the best position to draft one of those 3 guys. We are the kind of organisation, with Danny Ainge in charge, that is good enough to put the right support cast around such a player. If we miss out, then well that sucks, but we took our shot and will still have a good player of potential All Star level, with plenty of cap room and picks/assets.

 Who knows what Rondo will be like after the ACL injury? He already can't shoot. What if his athleticism is effected? If you can trade a recently injured Rondo with only 2 years on his deal at the beginning of a rebuild for Drummond it's a no brainer.

Since when is Jeff Green a probable All Star? He's a third option at the moment. Great complementary piece on a team like Rondo, Josh Smith, Monroe but as the go to guy? I mean the potential is there but we still haven't seen it.

Anyway, Meadowlark and yourself have this wonderful dream of one day being a real contender with Rondo, Green and another All Star. Those guys are not franchise players. If you put Durant or Lebron (Wiggins or Parker?) in between them then they have a shot. Jesus they put Lebron with Wade and Bosh and they've been lucky to win 2 out of 3. They guys they played? Built around Tim Duncan- a number one pick. Funny how 4 of the 6 most important players (the guys effecting the outcome of the NBA championship were picked 1-5). Tony Parker in the top 20 at the time was high for a European point guard. The Spurs have Tim Duncan. They have their Rondo in Parker and their Green in Leonard. Unfortunately we don't have a Duncan. 2014 could have one, it could also have 2 other guys like Pippen, Carmelo, Pierce, Tracy McGrady etc...
I mean it's great to say 'lets not gamble on the lottery/draft' yet you're fine with letting Rondo get to the end of his Celtics deal-after he's suffered through the torment of a terrible team, whilst his body takes more punishment because he's got too much pride to not go hard now he's the team leader- and then hope that's he's still okay with the organization.
Then you've got to sign Marc Gasol or Kevin Love- away from their current franchises and then on to yours ahead of the competition like the Lakers, Knicks, Clippers, Miami Heat, Nets, Bulls etc...all big market franchises.

You're assuming that Rondo and Green will be better and get to an All Star level. What if Rondo never makes another All Star game? What if Green is an 18ppg, 5 assists, 5 rebounds guy like Pierce?
Are Rondo and Green giving us a real shot at a title against OKC, the Heat, The Pistons, Cavs with Kyrie and Andrew Bynum (among others)?
I really don't think so.

You claim that trading Rondo and Green for Drummond, Pope and a treasure chest of goodies is 'bad timing', but the Pistons have the chance to win now and be a serious contender with additions like our guys. We unfortunately don't have a chance in hell of signing anyone like Smith and Monroe. While we wait for the chance to do that, Rondo's contract is expiring as is Greens.

I think it may be the perfect time to trade Rondo and Green because they are NOT taking us to banner 18 and we could get back talents like Drummond and Pope and the rest- right when we need to lose games to get a better shot at the 2014 lottery and potentially draft a franchise player. NBA championships are won by franchise players who are surrounded by All Stars and excellent role players.
How do those championship teams get those franchise players? They draft them.
History proves this. The Pistons are the exception to the rule but it's funny isn't it?

There will be a few franchise players in the next few years. NBA and basketball scouts worldwide are touting the talent in next years draft as having multiple forms of 'franchise' potential- the stuff of NBA champions. So rare that when it comes around, the odds of the team that drafts them winning a championship-or at least making the finals goes up an amount that is undefinable. Whatever that number is, it's far higher than acquiring a player through free agency.

I highlighted your last part because that's exactly what we'll be doing. Bowing out in the first round, not getting any picks, losing out on major free agents, watching Rondo walk or get injured with his style of player.
I mean I don't know about Rondo and exactly what round we'll exit the playoffs.
The important part is that for you and Meadowlark, it's fine to make the playoffs as long as you don't stink. For me, it's never fine unless we are successfully building a team that can truly compete for a title with the other 3 best teams.
Not gonna happen with Rondo and Green. Never.
If we get a top 3 pick in 2014 and land Wiggins, Parker or Randle? Much, much, much more likely.
History proves this.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

actually with rondo, green and twill...you already had a good group...get a strong mobile center and power forward.....you got a powerful team..twill can score and cover anyone at his spot...wade, LeBron ect...6'6" 235lbs....add a rebounder, which we have.....then a decent 3 point shooter for outside game.....there you go.....no one can cover either rondo or green as it is.....

[Celtics18]

Go back and find me a finalist team that didn't get there without a home-grown/home drafted kid that was a top 5 pick (or was picked higher in the lottery due to being overseas or young of top 5 caliber). The Pistons did it.
Find me another team.
You can't because only one exists.

Boston Celtics.

I realize that you won't allow me to include Dallas and the Lakers due to the fact that Dirk is European and Kobe was straight out of high school. 

[aporel#18]

Sorry, but I haven't had a lot of time for a reply. Thanks for the time you put it this.

All wonderful in theory, but putting an All Star around Green and Rondo isn't getting us anywhere. We just had 2 all stars next to them- 3 of them at one point and we won a single championship. KG's injury hurt that, but neither Rondo nor Green are franchise level players.
That's the point of this trade- you're blowing it up for a real shot at some franchise players and a draft that's a once in a decade opportunity. The timing is perfect, we are at a crossroads and we can re-tool or blow it up and rebuild from scratch. We've got a few young nice pieces in Sully, Avery, Olynyk. As well as some serious assets in picks+ solid starting small forward + a bench All Star in Rondo. Now if Durant or Lebron were free agents now then well, we've got Rondo and Green. A little work and we may have a real contender.

Well, Rondo and Green are just entering their primes, and this will be the first year where they're the biggest players/leaders on the team. That should be a difference to take to account. KG and PP were past their prime since 2010, and KG wasn't the same after the 2009 injury, but yeah, let's assume they aren't franchise players. Why trading both when Rondo's value is at his lowest because of recovering from ACL? You could argue Green's value is high because of potential, but then you should think about what being a first option could do for his value, even if he's not a so good player. Let them play this season as the stars of the Cs, and their value will rise. You don't have to trade both, and you don't have to trade them now, you can trade one of them for a significantly better piece (who?) at the trade deadline.

This draft is that loaded that getting a top 3 pick could greatly improve our chances at a championship.
I always use the example of looking at the past 50 years of NBA champions and teams that made the NBA finals. Even 25 years of history shows the relation to drafting a genuine superstar and making the finals/winning a title.

Go back and find me a finalist team that didn't get there without a home-grown/home drafted kid that was a top 5 pick (or was picked higher in the lottery due to being overseas or young of top 5 caliber). The Pistons did it.
Find me another team.
You can't because only one exists.

The talent in this draft is that serious that I feel we need to put ourselves in the best position to draft one of those 3 guys. We are the kind of organisation, with Danny Ainge in charge, that is good enough to put the right support cast around such a player. If we miss out, then well that sucks, but we took our shot and will still have a good player of potential All Star level, with plenty of cap room and picks/assets.

 

Ok, the Super Star theory is fine, and you are probably only getting one through the Draft. But if you add a top 5 pick to this current team you're one more step into your goal. If you burn the roster to gamble on Drummond and say, Jabari Parker, you have a chance to be good (not great) in 3-4 years. Drummond isn't Bill Russell, he might be some kind of skilled Karl Malone, but I don't see him as a franchise player (was Karl Malone a Super Star following the Elrod and others Super Star theory?) who can get you to the promise land.

Then, you suck and get, like in 1997, the 3d pick. You're lucky because Wiggins and Randle are picked and you can select Jabari, who some folks consider the more complete of the three. Nobody will guarantee Jabari is the next Paul Pierce... he could be the next Carmelo Anthony or worse.

So your plan would be get those great young players and keep sucking OKC style until you get a good starting 5 of lottery picks... and draft a Durant-caliber star. Good luck with that, we're the Celtics and we fired Lucky after the 2008 Championship.

 Who knows what Rondo will be like after the ACL injury? He already can't shoot. What if his athleticism is effected? If you can trade a recently injured Rondo with only 2 years on his deal at the beginning of a rebuild for Drummond it's a no brainer.

Since when is Jeff Green a probable All Star? He's a third option at the moment. Great complementary piece on a team like Rondo, Josh Smith, Monroe but as the go to guy? I mean the potential is there but we still haven't seen it.

Anyway, Meadowlark and yourself have this wonderful dream of one day being a real contender with Rondo, Green and another All Star. Those guys are not franchise players. If you put Durant or Lebron (Wiggins or Parker?) in between them then they have a shot. Jesus they put Lebron with Wade and Bosh and they've been lucky to win 2 out of 3. They guys they played? Built around Tim Duncan- a number one pick. Funny how 4 of the 6 most important players (the guys effecting the outcome of the NBA championship were picked 1-5). Tony Parker in the top 20 at the time was high for a European point guard. The Spurs have Tim Duncan. They have their Rondo in Parker and their Green in Leonard. Unfortunately we don't have a Duncan. 2014 could have one, it could also have 2 other guys like Pippen, Carmelo, Pierce, Tracy McGrady etc...
I mean it's great to say 'lets not gamble on the lottery/draft' yet you're fine with letting Rondo get to the end of his Celtics deal-after he's suffered through the torment of a terrible team, whilst his body takes more punishment because he's got too much pride to not go hard now he's the team leader- and then hope that's he's still okay with the organization.
Then you've got to sign Marc Gasol or Kevin Love- away from their current franchises and then on to yours ahead of the competition like the Lakers, Knicks, Clippers, Miami Heat, Nets, Bulls etc...all big market franchises.

You're assuming that Rondo and Green will be better and get to an All Star level. What if Rondo never makes another All Star game? What if Green is an 18ppg, 5 assists, 5 rebounds guy like Pierce?
Are Rondo and Green giving us a real shot at a title against OKC, the Heat, The Pistons, Cavs with Kyrie and Andrew Bynum (among others)?
I really don't think so.

You claim that trading Rondo and Green for Drummond, Pope and a treasure chest of goodies is 'bad timing', but the Pistons have the chance to win now and be a serious contender with additions like our guys. We unfortunately don't have a chance in hell of signing anyone like Smith and Monroe. While we wait for the chance to do that, Rondo's contract is expiring as is Greens.

I think it may be the perfect time to trade Rondo and Green because they are NOT taking us to banner 18 and we could get back talents like Drummond and Pope and the rest- right when we need to lose games to get a better shot at the 2014 lottery and potentially draft a franchise player. NBA championships are won by franchise players who are surrounded by All Stars and excellent role players.
How do those championship teams get those franchise players? They draft them.
History proves this. The Pistons are the exception to the rule but it's funny isn't it?

There will be a few franchise players in the next few years. NBA and basketball scouts worldwide are touting the talent in next years draft as having multiple forms of 'franchise' potential- the stuff of NBA champions. So rare that when it comes around, the odds of the team that drafts them winning a championship-or at least making the finals goes up an amount that is undefinable. Whatever that number is, it's far higher than acquiring a player through free agency.

I highlighted your last part because that's exactly what we'll be doing. Bowing out in the first round, not getting any picks, losing out on major free agents, watching Rondo walk or get injured with his style of player.
I mean I don't know about Rondo and exactly what round we'll exit the playoffs.
The important part is that for you and Meadowlark, it's fine to make the playoffs as long as you don't stink. For me, it's never fine unless we are successfully building a team that can truly compete for a title with the other 3 best teams.
Not gonna happen with Rondo and Green. Never.
If we get a top 3 pick in 2014 and land Wiggins, Parker or Randle? Much, much, much more likely.
History proves this.

Rondo is the best PG in the playoffs. He needs to mature, and I hope he does while in green. For all his flaws, he's a competitor, and he can take over games. Who can take over games at the biggest stage in this League? LeBroid, Durant, Kobe, Duncan? Westchuck? The Beard?... of course, there's a chance he doesn't get back 100% healthy, and that's why Detroit probably won't give you Drummond for Rondo (personally, I think Detroit should include Drummond and Monroe and Pope and Singler and all their draft picks until 2020... to get Rondo and Green)before they watch him play.


Jeff Green is a late bloomer. He'll have the chance to be the starting SF for the first time since his OKC days, when Durant was out with an injury. He's no Paul Pierce, but nobody is the Truth, and he has shown he can be the focal point against the best. He needs to do it consistently, improve his ballhandling if possible, but he's a fantastic 3rd best player on a championship team.

I'm not saying you have to keep Rondo and Green forever, I like them, and I think Rondo is a dominant center away from taking us to #18, but it's all about what you're getting. Move Humphries for the TPE, showcase Wallace and the young pups and get a top 10 pick, then you can make a package around the pick and the TPE, and if you find a good offer, you can make another package around Green or Rondo, but not now.

The OKC way is not replicable at ease. Look at Cleveland, with all that suckiness and good luck in the lottery. They're signing Andrew Bynum (older than Oden?), and have two Top 1 picks and multiple lottery picks on their team. They're finally set for 2-3 years of fringe contention until they can package their pieces for a shot at being competitive. Of course, if LeBroid goes back there (good luck with that) they will win because of the Super Star Crab Dribble FullBack NoFoul LeBroid powers. Use Washington as a nuke-like tank example. Or Charlotte and their perennial lottery spot. You have to use some assets, exchange them for better pieces, and keep improving.

IMO, the best chance at the lottery is if Rondo and Sully pull a semi-Rose and start playing after the All Star Game. I think aiming for a top 10 or even a top 5 pick through playing the young guys is the right choice. Aiming for the top 1 pick means burning the team, and isn't made for the Cs.

But we can agree to disagree.

[chambers]

Go back and find me a finalist team that didn't get there without a home-grown/home drafted kid that was a top 5 pick (or was picked higher in the lottery due to being overseas or young of top 5 caliber). The Pistons did it.
Find me another team.
You can't because only one exists.

Boston Celtics.

I realize that you won't allow me to include Dallas and the Lakers due to the fact that Dirk is European and Kobe was straight out of high school.

Sorry I meant top 10 /lottery not top 5.
Anyway you get my point that legit franchise guys rarely come outside the top 5-10 in the draft.
And I don't think there's a team other than the pistons in the past 25 years ( and beyond) that got to the finals without a home drafted player.

[dmopower]

No tanking please!