Author Topic: Grantland on Bass  (Read 4639 times)

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Re: Grantland on Bass
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2013, 05:22:21 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Is Bass overpaid. Arguably, although he's very near the average NBA salary, so I'm not sure.

But Bass had leverage.  The Celtics options were Bass or someone for the NBA minimum.  And Bass had played very very well the prior season, so he was going to get more than the minimum from someone.

The only signing from last offseason that bothers me with hindsight is Courtney Lee.  He was completely disappointing, and we sent off Moore and 3 second rounders, including #32, which we'd love to get back, for him.  The Celtics would have been better off keeping Moore and signing someone else for the minimum to help fill the void while Bradley was out, rather than signing Lee to a four-year deal.  While I was excited about it at the time, I really shouldn't have been, as Danny overreacted to losing Ray and having Bradley on the shelf for a two months.

It's really hard to say what we should have done last season. We were just coming off an ECF where we had two chances to go to the finals and we lost one of our main pieces. Signing Terry made a lot of sense at the time and Bass is a very decent playoff performer, as he plays hard half-court defense and can knock down the mid-range jumper. Guys like Lee, Green, Avery, and Sully were supposed to be the next generation working alongside the curren leaders.

Honestly, our team didn't look a whole lot different than San Antonio does now...and, frankly, the exact same result occurred to both of us - losing to the Heat in games 6 and 7. Theirs just happened to be in the finals.

It's easy to look back and second guess Danny's decisions, but the only real issue I had was the length of contracts for Terry and Bass...Lee was supposed to be a relatively key piece to the future.

I guess my argument about Lee is this: They already had signed Terry to a 3-year deal, and had Bradley.

  They didn't have Bradley, he was out indefinitely with double shoulder surgery.

Right, but he was due back in the middle of the year, and clearly made it back right around on schedule, if not a couple weeks later than he could have. The was no reason to sign someone to a 4-year deal for a half-season need.  That's what the minimum salary is for, and Leandro Barbosa proved that on opening night.

  I don't think it was a guarantee that he'd come back on time and not have any further shoulder injuries all year. But beyond that Lee filled a need on the team, someone who could cover decent sized shooting guards. I think the real issue with the argument is that if Danny passed on Lee because we only needed Bradley and Jet and one of them was injured he'd be crucified for not having enough depth, but since the injuries happened elsewhere he gets bashed for having a logjam at sg.

Re: Grantland on Bass
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2013, 05:59:02 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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The Heat paid Battier about 60 percent of what Boston paid Courtney Lee this season. Nick Young and Landry Fields each earned nearly seven times Neal’s salary. Bass earned significantly more this season than every big man who played in the Finals, save for Duncan and Bosh; could Boston have found 80 percent of Bass’s production without signing him to a three-year deal that will pay him nearly $7 million in 2014-15?

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/66331/why-the-heats-big-three-are-champions-and-the-nbas-star-system-works

I think a false premise in a lot of that article - and it's a doozy - is that teams have equal opportunities to sign players, at equal salaries.

Miami has some real bargains on their roster because they're Miami. Heck, they got Lebron, Wade and Bosh to all accept less than the max. Sure they have Battier at $3 million, but what is the evidence that the Celtics could have signed Battier for similar money?

We were able to get one player in the Big Three era at what seemed to me to be below-market money - Shaq. Why? Because he was convinced we could win a ring. Those days are probably gone.

Now, SAS may be a different story. It's hard to argue that Green and Neal signed for below-market money, they were just great finds.

But I think for most other teams who are not attractive FA destinations, and the Celtics are in that group, the reality is that free-agent pickings are very slim. So, re-signing guys like Bass is necessary. And, so might be paying top dollar for players like Lee and Terry.

Those contracts look like mistakes now, because we ended up having such a mediocre year, and because none of those players had a great year. But I think if you could re-run history without the Rondo injury, we might have gone a lot farther in the playoffs, and who knows, maybe Lee or Terry would have had some big games.

And it's not like we'd be sitting on $20 million in cap room with Chris Paul dying to sign with us if it weren't for those deals.

Re: Grantland on Bass
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2013, 06:00:30 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Is Bass overpaid. Arguably, although he's very near the average NBA salary, so I'm not sure.

But Bass had leverage.  The Celtics options were Bass or someone for the NBA minimum.  And Bass had played very very well the prior season, so he was going to get more than the minimum from someone.

The only signing from last offseason that bothers me with hindsight is Courtney Lee.  He was completely disappointing, and we sent off Moore and 3 second rounders, including #32, which we'd love to get back, for him.  The Celtics would have been better off keeping Moore and signing someone else for the minimum to help fill the void while Bradley was out, rather than signing Lee to a four-year deal.  While I was excited about it at the time, I really shouldn't have been, as Danny overreacted to losing Ray and having Bradley on the shelf for a two months.

It's really hard to say what we should have done last season. We were just coming off an ECF where we had two chances to go to the finals and we lost one of our main pieces. Signing Terry made a lot of sense at the time and Bass is a very decent playoff performer, as he plays hard half-court defense and can knock down the mid-range jumper. Guys like Lee, Green, Avery, and Sully were supposed to be the next generation working alongside the curren leaders.

Honestly, our team didn't look a whole lot different than San Antonio does now...and, frankly, the exact same result occurred to both of us - losing to the Heat in games 6 and 7. Theirs just happened to be in the finals.

It's easy to look back and second guess Danny's decisions, but the only real issue I had was the length of contracts for Terry and Bass...Lee was supposed to be a relatively key piece to the future.

I guess my argument about Lee is this: They already had signed Terry to a 3-year deal, and had Bradley.

  They didn't have Bradley, he was out indefinitely with double shoulder surgery.

Right, but he was due back in the middle of the year, and clearly made it back right around on schedule, if not a couple weeks later than he could have. The was no reason to sign someone to a 4-year deal for a half-season need.  That's what the minimum salary is for, and Leandro Barbosa proved that on opening night.

  I don't think it was a guarantee that he'd come back on time and not have any further shoulder injuries all year. But beyond that Lee filled a need on the team, someone who could cover decent sized shooting guards. I think the real issue with the argument is that if Danny passed on Lee because we only needed Bradley and Jet and one of them was injured he'd be crucified for not having enough depth, but since the injuries happened elsewhere he gets bashed for having a logjam at sg.

That's not my objection.  My objection is that you don't sign a guy for "depth" to a 4-year deal.  Suppose Bradley was hurt until March -- you'd still have three shooting guards signed for this year, costing $14 million, and either two shooting guards next year if you don't re-sign Bradley (but then why make him borderline untouchable in trades?), or 3 shooting guards next year costing closer to $18 million.  When you've got your three best players signed to about $40 million for a season, as we do this year, you can't have three players who play the same position, and pretty much only that position, take up that much salary space and still hope to have any flexibility with the new salary cap rules.

On top of that, we traded picks #32, #39, and #45 for Lee.  Now there's a rumor that we would take picks #31 and #33 for Pierce, which seems pretty much the value we gave up for Lee.

Again, I liked getting Lee at the time, because he was new and exciting, and now he's not new and disappointing.  I understand there is hindsight involved.  That said, I think that hindsight is appropriate in this case, as it probably wasn't wise to sign two free agents to long-term deals who play the same position as your injured starter, especially when one of them costs three picks and a young player who also played that position, but probably was a better backup at a different position than anyone you brought in.

Perhaps we should have passed on Terry and just signed Lee for what we did, and not given up the picks and Moore.  I'm open to that argument.  But we messed up bringing both in, and it's costing us.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 06:11:54 PM by saltlover »

Re: Grantland on Bass
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2013, 08:12:33 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Is Bass overpaid. Arguably, although he's very near the average NBA salary, so I'm not sure.

But Bass had leverage.  The Celtics options were Bass or someone for the NBA minimum.  And Bass had played very very well the prior season, so he was going to get more than the minimum from someone.

The only signing from last offseason that bothers me with hindsight is Courtney Lee.  He was completely disappointing, and we sent off Moore and 3 second rounders, including #32, which we'd love to get back, for him.  The Celtics would have been better off keeping Moore and signing someone else for the minimum to help fill the void while Bradley was out, rather than signing Lee to a four-year deal.  While I was excited about it at the time, I really shouldn't have been, as Danny overreacted to losing Ray and having Bradley on the shelf for a two months.

It's really hard to say what we should have done last season. We were just coming off an ECF where we had two chances to go to the finals and we lost one of our main pieces. Signing Terry made a lot of sense at the time and Bass is a very decent playoff performer, as he plays hard half-court defense and can knock down the mid-range jumper. Guys like Lee, Green, Avery, and Sully were supposed to be the next generation working alongside the curren leaders.

Honestly, our team didn't look a whole lot different than San Antonio does now...and, frankly, the exact same result occurred to both of us - losing to the Heat in games 6 and 7. Theirs just happened to be in the finals.

It's easy to look back and second guess Danny's decisions, but the only real issue I had was the length of contracts for Terry and Bass...Lee was supposed to be a relatively key piece to the future.

I guess my argument about Lee is this: They already had signed Terry to a 3-year deal, and had Bradley.  Lee, even if he offered a slightly different game than Terry and Bradley, played the same position.  Maybe the proper move would have been signing Lee to a 4-year deal with the mid-level and passing on Terry -- I don't really know.  I just think if I weren't looking through green goggles, like I was last summer, that I wouldn't have liked the Lee signing, since it meant you were wasting either the $5 million committed to Terry a month earlier, or the $5 million and other assets committed to Lee.  Neither of them could be an effective backup for Rondo, which was known at the time, and became pretty apparent once Rondo went down.  Nor had Bradley shown the ability to backup Rondo either.

I know we were close to beating the Heat the year before, but our regular season was nothing like the Spurs, either last year or this year.  And while Lee may have been our version of Danny Green, we paid him $1.5 mil more per season.  Duncan gets paid $2 mil less than Garnett.  Diaw gets $1.5 mil less than Bass.  They were able to release Jackson, who was paid over $10 mil, because they didn't like his attitude, and still stay under the luxury tax.  This year they're not going to have any trouble adding one more piece at the full mid-level, and still be under the luxury tax, while, assuming no major trades, we're going to only have the tax-payer mid-level, be over the luxury tax, and have issues avoiding the repeater tax rate the following off-season.  Maybe a healthy Rondo makes us better, but a healthy Rondo had us around .500 for the first half of the season, so I'm not convinced.

Anyway, the problem is that most of our players are a little overpaid.  Not extremely overpaid, but enough to matter in the aggregate, and we're feeling that this offseason.  We had an unsuccessful season, and have little maneuverability to make any improvements, unless it's a wholesale upheaval of the roster.  We're locked into the luxury tax, also without major upheaval, which means that the following two offseasons there will probably be greater imperative to stay under the luxury tax.  Even with Pierce coming off the books in 2014, it will be interesting to see if we can afford to keep Bradley.  And there will still be no room for someone at the mid-level.

The Spurs do not have this problem, so if we tried to emulate them, we did a bad job.  Blame Lee, Terry, or Bass, but one of those contracts put us behind the 8-ball.  Considering he was signed last and his contract is a year longer, I'm blaming Lee.

I agree with the basic premise here that we signed one too many shooting guards and that terry, bass, lee are all just slightly overpaid. 

I guess at the time it wasn't clear how soon exactly or how well AB would return to form.  Either way we had Rondo as a PG, and then AB, Jet, CL, AB in a log jam at the 2.  The log jam really hampered the team.  Too few minutes spread out among to many and no one got a good start to the season.  Then throw in the two injuries to RR and AB and Lee really didn't step up like everyone expected him to.

Definitely signed one guard too many.

There weren't enough minutes to go around for all four of Rondo, Bradley, Terry and Lee.

Ainge should have just signed a minimum contract SG (instead of C.Lee) who is happy as a third string player that can stand in as a defensive stopper while Bradley recovered from his injury. Someone like Rodney Carney or Keith Bogans.

I think Barbosa came in just a little too late...he probably would have prevented the Lee signing, although I think most people were pretty psyched when they heard we were trying to figure out a way to get him here...I was definitely in the Mayo camp, but I'm not sure he would have made a huge difference this season either.

I do think, however, that all three contracts are movable - not necessarily at the same time, but Bass and Terry would provide something useful to a contending team. I know neither was stellar in the regular season, but they both stepped it up in the postseason, which is what it's all about. Lee is still young and has a lot of potential to improve. When the Cs were offering up either Lee or Terry, I was certainly hoping they would take Terry.
I'm glad you have hope even with the unfavorable contracts. Those 3 guys total more than $17MM in salary.   :-X

Re: Grantland on Bass
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2013, 08:18:29 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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If we are going to go young and move Pierce and Kg then we have to move Bass.

You can't have a bad team with so many mid level contracts because they eat up your cap space. Those type of contracts are for good teams not rebuilding ones.

I believe Bass as well as Terry/Lee will be moved this offseason.
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Re: Grantland on Bass
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2013, 09:06:07 PM »

Offline More Banners

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If we are going to go young and move Pierce and Kg then we have to move Bass.

You can't have a bad team with so many mid level contracts because they eat up your cap space. Those type of contracts are for good teams not rebuilding ones.

I believe Bass as well as Terry/Lee will be moved this offseason.

I think Bass, Lee, and the 2014 1st rounder could bring back one heck of a player THIS summer, while Bradley and Sully fill their spots off the bench.

Re: Grantland on Bass
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2013, 09:24:49 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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After what I saw from Bass in the Playoffs, while he's overpaid in Boston, I think other teams are going to love him at $7 million a year.

The fact that he seems capable of playing the SF position, the versatility and the great showing he had, teams won't hesitate paying him that money. He looks like a guy who can average 14 points/6-7 rebounds at 45-47% shooting on 30 minutes a game and add to the fact that he can defend opponent 3's and 4's. I think that's worth it.

Now for us it isn't because we're tied up to the cap and we expect more production from him. But those numbers and ability would be loved by teams under the cap.
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