Collection of Thoughts After 2013 NBA Finals

[LarBrd33]

LeBron James.  The Undisputed King of the NBA.  Hate him if you want, but that kid has been meeting every single challenge that comes his way and destroying them.  4 MVP's.  4 Finals appearances.  Back-to-Back titles.  Carrying dead weight teammates to a championship.  Nailing insanely clutch shots.  These playoffs were all LeBron.  We're witnessing one of the greatest players of all time play the game.   I think he could retire right now and go down as one of the 10 greatest players in NBA history.

Simmons had Oscar Robertson #10 on his hall of fame pyramid.  Compare the resumes:

LeBron:

2× NBA champion (2012–2013)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2012–2013)
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009–2010, 2012–2013)
9× NBA All-Star (2005–2013)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2004)
NBA scoring champion (2008)
7× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2013)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)

Oscar: 

NBA champion (1971)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1964)
12× NBA All-Star (1961–1972)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1961, 1964, 1969)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1961)
9× All-NBA First Team (1961–1969)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1970–1971)


... Oscar played more years, but beyond that Bron could retire right now at age 28 and probably be considered in the top 10 ever.  And for all we know, LeBron could play another 10 years.

You're leaving out the triple-double. And the Big O's historical importance to the game. No way LeBron vaults over him on either point (certainly not his importance, distantly possible for the average).

Oscar's season averaging a triple double is overrated.  Read this excerpt from Simmons' book:  http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7688089/maybe-oscar-robertson-triple-double-season-impressive-all

Not necessarily a good thing. Why? Nobody played defense, and every game looked like a disjointed All-Star contest or even worse a college pickup game where nobody runs back on D because they're sweating out the previous night's keg party. The '61 Celtics led the league in scoring (124.5 per game) and averaged 119.5 field goal attempts and 33.5 free throw attempts. To put those numbers in perspective, the 2008 Celtics averaged 76 field goal attempts and 26 free throw attempts per game. That's insane. Play suffered so badly that NBC dropped the NBA one year later despite a memorable '62 Finals.
...

Because of the inordinately high number of possessions, the statistics from 1958 to 1962 need to be taken with an entire shaker of salt and possibly a salt water taffy factory.

Within five seasons, scoring increased by 18.6 points, field goal attempts increased by more than 4 per quarter, there were nearly 18 more rebounds available for each team and shooting percentages improved as teams played less and less defense.

Then the '62 season rolled around and the following things happened:

1. Wilt averaged 50 points

2. Oscar averaged a triple double

3. Walt Bellamy averaged a 32-19

4. Russell averaged 23.6 boards and fell two behind Wilt for the rebound title

It can be argued that LeBron's stats are more impressive than what OScar did in his prime.

[D.o.s.]

I don't need to read that excerpt--I own the book.   

Here's another one for you (one you won't find in TBoB). Wilt's 100 point game came in a game when he shot the ball 63 times, took 32 free throws, and his teammates had openly stopped  trying to do anything other than give him the ball explicitly so he would break 100 points. Does that make it any different?

[D.o.s.]

Further, I would argue that Oscar's achievement is even more impressive in idea than on paper--Simmons uses the correlation that you'd expect a Dwayne Wade to average a triple double if he was being guarded by a bunch of Goran Dragics as a negative, like it doesn't hold up to the league now.

My take on it is that it would be even more impressive to see someone like a Dwayne Wade playing in the league at that time, not only because it is absolutely incredible to watch someone so far ahead of everyone else within the confines of any sport, regardless of era, but especially when he was dealing with the incredible adversity of America in the 60's and 70's. It takes a real badass to go out and dominate while being hailed on by pennies and disallowed from eating with white teammates. He could've very easily hung it up (without being able to fall back on today's comfortable athlete's salary) and said "it's not worth it, I quit."

He didn't do that. Oscar Robertson is more important to basketball than LeBron James, and as such deserves, and will always deserve, a higher place on the NBA pantheon.

[LarBrd33]

Further, I would argue that Oscar's achievement is even more impressive in idea than on paper--Simmons uses the correlation that you'd expect a Dwayne Wade to average a triple double if he was being guarded by a bunch of Goran Dragics as a negative, like it doesn't hold up to the league now.

My take on it is that it would be even more impressive to see someone like a Dwayne Wade playing in the league at that time, not only because it is absolutely incredible to watch someone so far ahead of everyone else within the confines of any sport, regardless of era, but especially when he was dealing with the incredible adversity of America in the 60's and 70's. It takes a real badass to go out and dominate while being hailed on by pennies and disallowed from eating with white teammates. He could've very easily hung it up (without being able to fall back on today's comfortable athlete's salary) and said "it's not worth it, I quit."

He didn't do that. Oscar Robertson is more important to basketball than LeBron James, and as such deserves, and will always deserve, a higher place on the NBA pantheon.

Yeah man I hear you.  It's a moot point.  LeBron isn't retiring yet... he's 28 years old.  When he does, he might be considered the greatest player to ever play the game.  We'll see what happens. We are watching a legendary player in his prime.  It's very exciting.

[D.o.s.]

Taking that to it's logical end, what does our best player ever LeBron look like?

Say, top 10 scoring, rebounds, and assists all time, 6 time league MVP, 5 time finals MVP, 8 rings and assorted All-whatever honors? Is that enough?

[Smutzy#9]

As disgusting as this sounds by the end of his career James will be a better 3 than Bird was in nearly every statistical category bar maybe rebounds and FT%. So he can arguable be in the best team of all time.

Magic Jordan Lebron Duncan Russel/Kareem/Wilt (seriously cant choose one of those)

Hate him all you want. The guy is a freak

[cltc5]

I'll give miami and especially Lebron james their props.  They earned their title this year.  And while I could not stomach watching the coronation, from the rally in game 6 to Lebron's dominance down the stretch in game 7, they showed why they were the best.

[CeltsPride]

As a fan on the NBA, I am glad that the Spurs got the benefit of the officiating on the road in games 6 and 7. I loved having to watch Miami earn the title and they unquestionably did that last night. Also glad we dont have to hear stupid fans talk about how the NBA is fixed and we can just focus on how great that series was.

[badshar]

After Duncan missed that shot and slapped the floor out of frustration, I pretty much knew looking at his face that he was feeling awful and that it was all over.

After this, I think he will get to feel exactly like KG did after he lost in 2010 Finals Game 7. KG had three rebounds and I can guarantee that he regrets it and blames himself for the loss, just like Duncan regrets that shot and will blame himself.

[scaryjerry]

Further, I would argue that Oscar's achievement is even more impressive in idea than on paper--Simmons uses the correlation that you'd expect a Dwayne Wade to average a triple double if he was being guarded by a bunch of Goran Dragics as a negative, like it doesn't hold up to the league now.

My take on it is that it would be even more impressive to see someone like a Dwayne Wade playing in the league at that time, not only because it is absolutely incredible to watch someone so far ahead of everyone else within the confines of any sport, regardless of era, but especially when he was dealing with the incredible adversity of America in the 60's and 70's. It takes a real badass to go out and dominate while being hailed on by pennies and disallowed from eating with white teammates. He could've very easily hung it up (without being able to fall back on today's comfortable athlete's salary) and said "it's not worth it, I quit."

He didn't do that. Oscar Robertson is more important to basketball than LeBron James, and as such deserves, and will always deserve, a higher place on the NBA pantheon.

Yeah man I hear you.  It's a moot point.  LeBron isn't retiring yet... he's 28 years old.  When he does, he might be considered the greatest player to ever play the game.  We'll see what happens. We are watching a legendary player in his prime.  It's very exciting.

And still, if the spurs get a rebound or Ray Allen missed a jump shot people would remember Lebron differently...as amazing as you praise him for being the spurs were right there and let it slip away.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

My main thought is

I LOVE THE NBA!


Even after such a disappointing Celtics season, I still feel so great to be an NBA fan and privileged to get to watch a playoffs and especially a Finals series like that one.


As Jeff said on Twitter, these Finals are why us fans of all the other teams go nuts over trades and the draft and coach hirings and firings and rumors . . . we just want our favorite team to get where the Heat and the Spurs were, competing at the highest level on the highest stage.

I hope it's not too long before the Celtics are there again.

Well, I wouldn't say that the Spurs were competing at the highest level—at least, not in games 6 and 7. Unless, of course, by "highest level" you mean the Finals, but I take "the highest level" as meaning "the best basketball." Which the Spurs assuredly did not play. I don't want to take anything away from Miami, but the Spurs had the title with 30 seconds left in Game 6—and then they bricked, turnovered, and dumb-fouled their way to defeat.

I want to highlight, however, Tim Duncan's and Kawhi Leonard's great play. As someone else mentioned, I resigned myself to a Heat title after Game 6, but as much as it hurts me and all of us to see them win, Duncan has got to be in absolute agony right now, even though (other than that one crucial miss) he played well. I mean, he actually showed emotion after that miss.

I, too, hope the Cs are back there soon. I'm bracing myself for some circa-2006, pre-KG results in the immediate future, but I'm still excited to watch Sully, Rondo, Bradley, and Green (presuming Danny keeps them around), and I'll be happy to again watch KG and Pierce in green if this whole Clippers fiasco stays dead. It's tough for me to watch players I despise (LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Jordan) build dynasties or even mini-dynasties, but there's gotta be another Cs dynasty not too far down the road—I mean, they went 21 years between titles, so the next step (after rebuilding) is another period of Cs dominance (I hope).

Long live the Green.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

And I don't know what it is about Chalmers but I don't like seeing him celebrate.

I hear ya. I don't like Chalmers at all. And I think that one of the biggest annoyances for me about this Heat team is that it is SOOOOOO dependent on LeBron, which means that all these punks and doofuses around him get to celebrate even though they did only a little (such as Battier with ONE good game in the series) or nothing at all (Udonis Haslem).

I mean, when I look at title teams of the past (Cs and Lakers of the '80s, for example), those teams were LOADED with talent. But this Heat team of the past two or three seasons? LeBron, yes; Wade, for sure a great talent, but he's breaking down and played poorly the majority of this series; and Bosh, who's solid, but he looked anything but dominant this series, especially in Game 7. And then a bunch of one-trick ponies—Battier, Miller, Allen, Chalmers, Anderson. Yes, every contender needs role players, but LeBron's presence makes a team of role players into a champion. He's just THAT good. I'd rather have had him stay in Cleveland and win titles there with a bunch of role players who AREN'T punks like Wade.

[CeltsPride]

And I don't know what it is about Chalmers but I don't like seeing him celebrate.

I hear ya. I don't like Chalmers at all. And I think that one of the biggest annoyances for me about this Heat team is that it is SOOOOOO dependent on LeBron, which means that all these punks and doofuses around him get to celebrate even though they did only a little (such as Battier with ONE good game in the series) or nothing at all (Udonis Haslem).

I mean, when I look at title teams of the past (Cs and Lakers of the '80s, for example), those teams were LOADED with talent. But this Heat team of the past two or three seasons? LeBron, yes; Wade, for sure a great talent, but he's breaking down and played poorly the majority of this series; and Bosh, who's solid, but he looked anything but dominant this series, especially in Game 7. And then a bunch of one-trick ponies—Battier, Miller, Allen, Chalmers, Anderson. Yes, every contender needs role players, but LeBron's presence makes a team of role players into a champion. He's just THAT good. I'd rather have had him stay in Cleveland and win titles there with a bunch of role players who AREN'T punks like Wade.

It's so great that we get to cheer for loaded Celtics teams and Miami is left cheering for one-trick ponies, punks and doofuses [sic].

[Celtics4ever]

It's so great that we get to cheer for loaded Celtics teams and Miami is left cheering for one-trick ponies, punks and doofuses [sic].

Not to mention their MVP's , the refs.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

And I don't know what it is about Chalmers but I don't like seeing him celebrate.

I hear ya. I don't like Chalmers at all. And I think that one of the biggest annoyances for me about this Heat team is that it is SOOOOOO dependent on LeBron, which means that all these punks and doofuses around him get to celebrate even though they did only a little (such as Battier with ONE good game in the series) or nothing at all (Udonis Haslem).

I mean, when I look at title teams of the past (Cs and Lakers of the '80s, for example), those teams were LOADED with talent. But this Heat team of the past two or three seasons? LeBron, yes; Wade, for sure a great talent, but he's breaking down and played poorly the majority of this series; and Bosh, who's solid, but he looked anything but dominant this series, especially in Game 7. And then a bunch of one-trick ponies—Battier, Miller, Allen, Chalmers, Anderson. Yes, every contender needs role players, but LeBron's presence makes a team of role players into a champion. He's just THAT good. I'd rather have had him stay in Cleveland and win titles there with a bunch of role players who AREN'T punks like Wade.

It's so great that we get to cheer for loaded Celtics teams and Miami is left cheering for one-trick ponies, punks and doofuses [sic].

Not sure why the [sic] is there ... I spelled doofuses correctly.