Pops is proof that Doc isn't all that great

[LooseCannon]

One transaction which illustrates to me how the Spurs are better-run than other teams is their willingness to get rid of Stephen Jackson days before the playoffs started.

[wahz]

Anyone who thinks the Danny-Doc combo has been great is a complete fool. There have been horrible draft picks, terrible free agent pick ups, poor free agent contracts, awful rotations, and so on. It's impossible to determine who is most at fault for not taking the title team and building on it properly. But if greatness is a "10" they probably should get close to an "8." And they came really close to winning a 2nd title. With either that title or the title they might have had the year they traded Perk, it would be hard to deny they were great. That is what separates greatness from not. John Landy broke the 4 minute mile shortly after Roger Bannister did but few recall him. He was a step short in some head to head battles. One inch can be the difference. And this team had it in the bag to win 2-3 titles and has one. That is not great.

You forgot to mention injuries among your list of failures within tha Danny/Doc combo.

San Antonio has had injuries all along. Duncan is playing the best he has in years with his feet being ok. Manu is more healthy than normal. Injuries aren't much of an excuse. San Antone is in the finals going for number 5.

[CelticConcourse]

One transaction which illustrates to me how the Spurs are better-run than other teams is their willingness to get rid of Stephen Jackson days before the playoffs started.

Agreed.

[NocturnalRebel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcegYF_Ti78

I WANT SOME NASTY!

Funny video. Look at Craig's suit at 1:05 tho. And is it me or is Pop more animated with TNT's sideline reporters than he is with ESPN's?

[RJ87]

Oh, and the Rondo/Parker comparison doesn't hold any weight either.  Have you not seen Rondo in the playoffs the past few years? The short term memories around here are something else.

Yes, Rondo has more innate talent than Parker, however, under Pops, Parker's matured into a true combo PG, much like our JoJo White of yesteryear. And thus, he works quite well in a team environment. Many of Rondo's contributions were his eagle-eye assists and mini-dream shake under the basket. The 5-on-4 defenses against Rondo did work when he wasn't able to get his layups going.

Thus,

if Rondo > Parker
Pierce > Ginobili (esp post-2007 injury era)
Garnett ~ Duncan
& Ray Ray > next best Spur's player


Then Pops has clearly less to work with than Doc.

"True combo PG" is one heck of an oxymoron. Rajon Rondo is not Jojo White.  He's Rajon Rondo. Just like Tony Parker is Tony Parker.  They're both great PGs with different games. I don't see why they need to be faux-Jojo Whites.

Again, i think the logic behind your point is flawed. If everyone was in good health under Doc (KG, Shaq, Perk, etc) than their likely would be more banners in the Garden. No coach in the NBA has had to deal with as many season ending injuries or heart ailments to key guys over the past 6 years as Doc has. Maybe Nate McMillan during his tenure with Portland.

[Vermont Green]

First you say:

Since 2008, Ginobili's been injured almost every year.

Then you say:

I think Pops would have done a better job of managing PP's minutes than Doc.

But if Pops is such a great coach, why doesn't he manage Ginobili's minutes better so he isn't injured every year?

San Antonio is a very well run organization and Pop is a good coach.  These are true statements but have no bearing whatsoever in judging whether or not Doc is a good coach.

As far as this year, the main difference is that Duncan is healthier than KG and Parker is healthier than Rondo.

[TitleMaster]

But if Pops is such a great coach, why doesn't he manage Ginobili's minutes better so he isn't injured every year?

San Antonio is a very well run organization and Pop is a good coach.  These are true statements but have no bearing whatsoever in judging whether or not Doc is a good coach.

As far as this year, the main difference is that Duncan is healthier than KG and Parker is healthier than Rondo.

Yes, he did manage Manu's minutes, while at the same time, had no equivalent star power to replace him, as an inside-out all star shooter. Pops needed subs to make up for a franchise player. In contrast, Doc had a healthy Pierce for years which is why he ran isos for Paul, much of the time, during crunch time. Sometimes it worked but when PP was gassed, it was a death trap which opponents took advantage of.

Then, Rondo, not being JoJo White, has an inconsistent outside shot, which teams then took advantage of. In contrast, Parker does have an outside shot and yes, like JoJo White, takes the ball inside, while setting up the guys on the outside. So the guy above is correct, there's no real JoJo facsimile, however, in terms of player development, Pops had most definitely gotten a rookie/sopho Parker into a form, not too disparate from what JoJo was, in his prime. Rondo, on the other hand, was always looking for that assist, a shooter off a screen. He never really advanced beyond that style of player.

[BballTim]

In contrast, we always had a Rondo, who couldn't shoot from the outside. And unlike JoJo, he rarely drove, to setup the outside shooter. Instead, he dribbled, waiting for someone to come off the screen to make the assist. Parker was making all the JoJo White modifications during those Ginobili injured playoffs.

  Rondo drives more than almost anyone in the league. And if you're going to laud Pops for Parker's "transformation" you might want to ask why he didn't do it sooner, Parker's been on the Spurs for 11 years or so.

[TitleMaster]

In contrast, we always had a Rondo, who couldn't shoot from the outside. And unlike JoJo, he rarely drove, to setup the outside shooter. Instead, he dribbled, waiting for someone to come off the screen to make the assist. Parker was making all the JoJo White modifications during those Ginobili injured playoffs.

  Rondo drives more than almost anyone in the league. And if you're going to laud Pops for Parker's "transformation" you might want to ask why he didn't do it sooner, Parker's been on the Spurs for 11 years or so.

Very simple, Parker's not that great of a player. The top player for the Spurs, prior to the 2008 season, was Ginobili pre-injury. And then, as a defensive anchor, T Duncan as a mature version of Robinson, but not Robinson in his prime.

In other words, the Celts were always better than the Spurs but unlike them, we never truly overachieved except for that 2010 playoff series, which BTW, I'd predicted with Operation Fo'Fo'Fo'.

[dasani]

Uh, they have very different systems and coaching philosophies . One is more offensively oriented, while the other is more defensively, to put it simply, though its more than that. Doc's system this year did not work with the personnel as it had in the years prior. This was quite obvious from the underwhelming start of the season. So even though it may seem obvious to make these comparisons, they really aren't the same at all.

[TitleMaster]

Uh, they have very different systems and coaching philosophies . One is more offensively oriented, while the other is more defensively, to put it simply, though its more than that. Doc's system this year did not work with the personnel as it had in the years prior. This was quite obvious from the underwhelming start of the season. So even though it may seem obvious to make these comparisons, they really aren't the same at all.

Doc's defenses came from Thib's system. Afterwards, all he did was hand the ball over to Paul and Kevin to finish the possession or have Rondo dribble the clock, while waiting for someone to come off a screen. That's neither creative nor something which would surprise the opponents, esp if they were paying attention.

The Celts had more talent than the Spurs with an mature Duncan, injured Ginobili, slightly above average PG Parker, and role players but despite those shortcomings, Pops did well with his crew.

[BballTim]

In contrast, we always had a Rondo, who couldn't shoot from the outside. And unlike JoJo, he rarely drove, to setup the outside shooter. Instead, he dribbled, waiting for someone to come off the screen to make the assist. Parker was making all the JoJo White modifications during those Ginobili injured playoffs.

  Rondo drives more than almost anyone in the league. And if you're going to laud Pops for Parker's "transformation" you might want to ask why he didn't do it sooner, Parker's been on the Spurs for 11 years or so.

Very simple, Parker's not that great of a player. The top player for the Spurs, prior to the 2008 season, was Ginobili pre-injury. And then, as a defensive anchor, T Duncan as a mature version of Robinson, but not Robinson in his prime.

In other words, the Celts were always better than the Spurs but unlike them, we never truly overachieved except for that 2010 playoff series, which BTW, I'd predicted with Operation Fo'Fo'Fo'.

  The top player on the Spurs was Duncan. The Celts overachieved in 2010 but it wasn't the only year. The team with no KG came within a game of the conference finals and the team with no healthy shooting guards and PP playing through a sprained knee ligament came within a game of the finals. And for all the credit you give Pops for Parker's growth, you'd have to give equal credit to Doc for Rondo's growth. He might not be the scorer JoJo was but he's a much better passer.

[dasani]

Uh, they have very different systems and coaching philosophies . One is more offensively oriented, while the other is more defensively, to put it simply, though its more than that. Doc's system this year did not work with the personnel as it had in the years prior. This was quite obvious from the underwhelming start of the season. So even though it may seem obvious to make these comparisons, they really aren't the same at all.

Doc's defenses came from Thib's system. Afterwards, all he did was hand the ball over to Paul and Kevin to finish the possession or have Rondo dribble the clock, while waiting for someone to come off a screen. That's neither creative nor something which would surprise the opponents, esp if they were paying attention.

The Celts had more talent than the Spurs with an mature Duncan, injured Ginobili, slightly above average PG Parker, and role players but despite those shortcomings, Pops did well with his crew.

yes but I think if the personnel wasn't so new and understood the defensive (Thibs system or not) schemes from the beginning of the season, this year would have been more successful. Doc complained quietly that some of the new team members (and Bass sometimes) couldn't get the defensive rotations and sets down right.

[Yogi]

One transaction which illustrates to me how the Spurs are better-run than other teams is their willingness to get rid of Stephen Jackson days before the playoffs started.

One illustration of how the Celtics are just as well run (if not better) is the fact that they didn't have to make such a transaction.

[BballTim]

Uh, they have very different systems and coaching philosophies . One is more offensively oriented, while the other is more defensively, to put it simply, though its more than that. Doc's system this year did not work with the personnel as it had in the years prior. This was quite obvious from the underwhelming start of the season. So even though it may seem obvious to make these comparisons, they really aren't the same at all.

Doc's defenses came from Thib's system. Afterwards, all he did was hand the ball over to Paul and Kevin to finish the possession or have Rondo dribble the clock, while waiting for someone to come off a screen. That's neither creative nor something which would surprise the opponents, esp if they were paying attention.

The Celts had more talent than the Spurs with an mature Duncan, injured Ginobili, slightly above average PG Parker, and role players but despite those shortcomings, Pops did well with his crew.

  Parker was scoring almost 20 a game when he was 23. And for all your claims of Duncan being "mature" keep in mind that he's pretty much the same age as KG, who wasn't really all the way back from his knee injury until 2011 or so.