Who has had a better career, Pierce or Dirk?

[CelticConcourse]

Saw this in the other thread, so... who do you think had the better career, or is the better basketball player?
http://www.courier-journal.com/VideoNetwork/982588760001/Rick-Pitino-s-Dirk-Nowitzki-story

Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks) - 1998 Draft, 9th overall pick.

Code: [Select]

Season PTS REB AST
1998-99 08.2 3.4 1.0
1999-00 17.5 6.5 2.5
2000-01 21.8 9.2 2.1
2001-02 23.4 9.9 2.4
2002-03 25.1 9.9 3.0
2003-04 21.8 8.7 2.7
2004-05 26.1 9.7 3.1
2005-06 26.6 9.0 2.8
2006-07 24.6 8.9 3.4
2007-08 23.6 8.6 3.5
2008-09 25.9 8.4 2.4
2009-10 25.0 7.7 2.7
2010-11 23.0 7.0 2.6
2011-12 21.6 6.7 2.2
2012-13 17.3 6.8 2.5
Career 22.6 8.2 2.6


Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) - 1998 Draft, 10th overall pick.

Code: [Select]

Season PTS TRB AST
1998-99 16.5 6.4 2.4
1999-00 19.5 5.4 3.0
2000-01 25.3 6.4 3.1
2001-02 26.1 6.9 3.2
2002-03 25.9 7.3 4.4
2003-04 23.0 6.5 5.1
2004-05 21.6 6.6 4.2
2005-06 26.8 6.7 4.7
2006-07 25.0 5.9 4.1
2007-08 19.6 5.1 4.5
2008-09 20.5 5.6 3.6
2009-10 18.3 4.4 3.1
2010-11 18.9 5.4 3.3
2011-12 19.4 5.2 4.5
2012-13 18.6 6.3 4.8
Career 21.8 6.0 3.9

[jojowhite10]

Difficult to base it just on stats because for a few of those years Pierce had Rondo, Garnett, and Allen as other legitimate scoring options he deferred to. I think that Dirk has always been unquestionably the Mavs #1 option since Nash left.

I think that they are both going to be remembered as premier scorers for their entire careers who both had a couple good playoff runs (for better or worse that's how I see it going down).

Personally since I followed his entire career so closely I gotta give the (biased) nod to Pierce.

[Boris Badenov]

Interesting question.

I give it to Dirk, slightly, for the reason above: Dirk was much more clearly the #1 guy.

In terms of direct comparison Pierce is obviously the more well-rounded player. But  Dirk's step-back is one of the most lethal offensive moves the game has ever seen.

[PhoSita]

Dirk.  Pierce may have been the top scorer for the '08 team, but the best player on that team was Garnett.

Dirk has been almost as good as Duncan in terms of guaranteeing his team lots of regular season wins, and he was without question the most unstoppable player in the 2011 playoffs.  He was amazing that year.

[LarBrd33]

Dirk.


On stats, Dirk.
Team success, Dirk.

Awards, Dirk:

Dirk edges him out in pretty much everything...

Dirk:

    NBA champion (2011)
    NBA Finals MVP (2011)
    NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
    11× NBA All-Star (2002–2012)
    4× All-NBA First Team (2005–2007, 2009)
    5× All-NBA Second Team (2002–2003, 2008, 2010–2011)
    3× All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004, 2012)
    NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2006)
    NBA Shooting Stars champion (2010)
    FIBA World Cup MVP (2002)
    FIBA EuroBasket MVP (2005)
    6× Euroscar Award Winner (2002–2006, 2011)
    5x All-Europeans Player of the Year (2005–2008, 2011)
    Mister Europa Player of the Year (2005)
    2× FIBA Europe Player of the Year (2005, 2011)
    Sports Illustrated NBA All-Decade Second Team (2000–2009)
    Silbernes Lorbeerblatt (2011)
    German Sports Personality of the Year (2011)
    Naismith Legacy Award (2012)


Pierce:


    NBA champion (2008)
    NBA Finals MVP (2008)
    10× NBA All-Star (2002–2006, 2008–2012)
    All-NBA Second Team (2009)
    3× All-NBA Third Team (2002–2003, 2008)
    NBA All-Rookie First Team (1999)
    NBA Three-Point Shootout champion (2010)
    2× Big 12 Tournament MVP (1997-1998)
    Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1998)

In his prime, Dirk was probably a top 5 player in the league.  Dirk was unquestionably the player who lead his team to a title.   Dirk is a former league MVP.  Multiple All-NBA 1st team appearances.  Dirk was a "superstar" in his prime.  Pierce never got onto that level.  KG was our superstar best player in 2008 despite Paul winning finals MVP.

Pierce is my second favorite player of all time behind Bird... but Dirk was definitely better than Pierce.  At no point did I ever consider Pierce a superstar in this league.  He was an All-star... a Top 15-30 player... and always one of the top 5 small forwards in the league. 

FYI, Bill SImmons ranks Dirk #36 in his Hall of Fame Pyramid.  He has Pierce ranked #47.   So they are close, but you give the edge to Dirk.

[Who]

Dirk surpassed Pierce when he led Dallas to the title two years ago.

[LarBrd33]

Dirk surpassed Pierce when he led Dallas to the title two years ago.

Yeah... if we look back at this era, Dirk definitely won the war against Pierce.  Duncan definitely won the war against KG.  Ray use to always consider himself a rival of Kobe, but we clearly know who won that war.

But there were several players who lost those wars as well.  Dirk/Pierce vs Vince was a no contest.   Webber and JO never got on the KG/Duncan level.  T-Mac never got there against Kobe. 

Long-term, our guys deserve praise for what they accomplished even if they were the "2nd rate" stars of their generation.  They were still better than pretty much everyone else.

[Boris Badenov]

Dirk surpassed Pierce when he led Dallas to the title two years ago.

As an achievement I think that Dirk's ring is pretty underrated. I mean, Jason Terry was the second best player (offensively anyway) on that squad.

Has any other championship team in the modern era won with a #2 that weak? (As always, Detroit in 04 does not count, haha).

[LarBrd33]

Dirk surpassed Pierce when he led Dallas to the title two years ago.

As an achievement I think that Dirk's ring is pretty underrated. I mean, Jason Terry was the second best player (offensively anyway) on that squad.

Has any other championship team in the modern era won with a #2 that weak? (As always, Detroit in 04 does not count, haha).

Dirk had a heck of a year that season.  His FG% was actually the highest of his career.  Statistically he was a top 10 player in the regular season and a top 5 player in the playoffs.  SO it was definitely a case of having a superstar-level player at the helm (pretty much every champion has one).  There wasn't really a second best star, but that team had a lot of depth around Dirk.  Marion and Jason Kidd were big.   Having one of the best defenders in the league, Tyson Chandler, didn't hurt either.  Chandler won DPOY the next year with NY.  So again, helps having an elite scorer and a quality big man.

[Boris Badenov]

Dirk surpassed Pierce when he led Dallas to the title two years ago.

As an achievement I think that Dirk's ring is pretty underrated. I mean, Jason Terry was the second best player (offensively anyway) on that squad.

Has any other championship team in the modern era won with a #2 that weak? (As always, Detroit in 04 does not count, haha).

Dirk had a heck of a year that season.  His FG% was actually the highest of his career.  Statistically he was a top 10 player in the regular season and a top 5 player in the playoffs.  SO it was definitely a case of having a superstar-level player at the helm (pretty much every champion has one).  There wasn't really a second best star, but that team had a lot of depth around Dirk.  Marion and Jason Kidd were big.   Having one of the best defenders in the league, Tyson Chandler, didn't hurt either.  Chandler won DPOY the next year with NY.  So again, helps having an elite scorer and a quality big man.

Agreed, I was just pointing out that most championship teams have another guy who is pretty clearly top-20 (Wade, Pierce, Pippen, Parker, Kobe). Heck, even Pau on those Lakers teams was pretty great..

[CelticsFan9]

I agree that Dirk was better, but here's another reason why: I think Dirk resonated more with fans, and helped globalize the game more (being European obviously helps that).  I just feel like when I talk to other NBA fans, they love talking about Dirk (especially after the epic title run), whereas Pierce gets some praise, but not on the level of Dirk.

[LarBrd33]

Dirk surpassed Pierce when he led Dallas to the title two years ago.

As an achievement I think that Dirk's ring is pretty underrated. I mean, Jason Terry was the second best player (offensively anyway) on that squad.

Has any other championship team in the modern era won with a #2 that weak? (As always, Detroit in 04 does not count, haha).

Dirk had a heck of a year that season.  His FG% was actually the highest of his career.  Statistically he was a top 10 player in the regular season and a top 5 player in the playoffs.  SO it was definitely a case of having a superstar-level player at the helm (pretty much every champion has one).  There wasn't really a second best star, but that team had a lot of depth around Dirk.  Marion and Jason Kidd were big.   Having one of the best defenders in the league, Tyson Chandler, didn't hurt either.  Chandler won DPOY the next year with NY.  So again, helps having an elite scorer and a quality big man.

Agreed, I was just pointing out that most championship teams have another guy who is pretty clearly top-20 (Wade, Pierce, Pippen, Parker, Kobe). Heck, even Pau on those Lakers teams was pretty great..

Totally... in fact I think Pau on those Lakers teams was more important than Kobe. 

[ianboyextreme]

Dirk surpassed Pierce when he led Dallas to the title two years ago.

Yeah... if we look back at this era, Dirk definitely won the war against Pierce.  Duncan definitely won the war against KG.  Ray use to always consider himself a rival of Kobe, but we clearly know who won that war.

But there were several players who lost those wars as well.  Dirk/Pierce vs Vince was a no contest.   Webber and JO never got on the KG/Duncan level.  T-Mac never got there against Kobe. 

Long-term, our guys deserve praise for what they accomplished even if they were the "2nd rate" stars of their generation.  They were still better than pretty much everyone else.

The gap between Ray and Kobe is substantially larger than the one between Paul and Dirk, and lightyears larger than the one between KG and Duncan.

KG in his prime is the greatest power forward ever.

[ianboyextreme]

Dirk surpassed Pierce when he led Dallas to the title two years ago.

As an achievement I think that Dirk's ring is pretty underrated. I mean, Jason Terry was the second best player (offensively anyway) on that squad.

Has any other championship team in the modern era won with a #2 that weak? (As always, Detroit in 04 does not count, haha).

His ring is absurdly underrated. I feel like people forgot how astoundingly good he was during that playoff run. Most clutch/ best performance over a playoff run I have seen in my days watching basketball. (only since 04' but anyone would be hard pressed to find a better slew of games than Dirk's in 2011)

Also the most fun I have had watching basketball since I wasnt about to have a heart attack (celtics).

[Mr Green]

Dirk surpassed Pierce when he led Dallas to the title two years ago.

As an achievement I think that Dirk's ring is pretty underrated. I mean, Jason Terry was the second best player (offensively anyway) on that squad.

Has any other championship team in the modern era won with a #2 that weak? (As always, Detroit in 04 does not count, haha).

The only one I can think of is Hakeem Olajuwon winning the chip in 1994 with this roster of roleplayers and a Game 7 meltdown by John Starks:

Scott Brooks
Matt Bullard
Sam Cassell (Rookie)
Earl Cureton
Mario Elie
Carl Herrera
Robert Horry (2nd season)
Chris Jent (Rookie)
Vernon Maxwell
Richard Petruska
Eric Riley (Rookie)
Larry Robinson
Kenny Smith
Otis Thorpe