In hindsight, if you could change one move of Danny's, what would it be?

[bdm860]

It's easy to go back in the draft, and cherry pick the gems out of the 2nd round, so I'll stay away from those obvious answers (though would gladly go back in time and make those picks).

But how about James Posey?

Signed for a 2 year deal for $6.67m with the 2nd year being his option (which he opted out of).  Then we lost him the next year when he signed a 4 year, $25m deal with NO (which I think a lot of us agree was too long a deal for him).  I believe the Celtics were offering the full mid-level for 2-3 years, or something around that, right?

So what if he just signed Posey for 3 or 4 years in the first place?  Maybe offer 3yr/$15m in 2007 (or possibly even a few million less) instead of essentially offering 1yr/$3.2m and having to try to re-sign him the next year.  Would that have been possible with our cap position at the time?

He would have helped (though probably wouldn't have made much of a difference in '09, but would have still have useful in '10, more so than Daniels or Finley).

We couldn't sign him to a deal like that in the first place.  Posey signed under market value, purposely to try to earn that last big pay day.  Unless the C's offered him close to the full MLE, he would have demanded the option after 1 year, no matter what.

I do think one of Danny's biggest mistakes though, was waiting on Posey for so long.  He let all of the options to replace him come off the market in the time while Posey was deciding what to do.  Danny should have given him a take it or leave it offer, and then moved on quickly.

You say we couldn't sign him to a deal like that in the first place, but then say it would take close to the full mid-level, but that's what I was suggesting.  Like how this year we just signed Jason Terry with the mid-level for 3yr/$15m.  Unless when you say full mid-level, and you mean full years too, where I'm talking about just dollars.

Yes I'm saying instead of having James Posey play for cheap for one year.  Give him the mid-level for up to 4 years in 2007.  Instead of offering that for 3 years in 2008.  Though ideally you could sign him for a little less, and maybe one less year.  I know he wanted that last payday, which ended up being a little more than the mid-level, but nobody was offering him that in 2007, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...

[Roy H.]

Wow Roy, you just blew my mind on the Gasol pick.  I had no idea we passed on him.

Mine is simple but I think could've gone a long way... keep Tony Allen.

Yeah I think a lot of the "shoyld have drafted so and so" is pretty hard to criticize considering other teams made the same mistake and most of us have no idea what to expect from these players going into the draft and moving forward.

For me, at the time and since I cannot wrap my head around not signing TA. It was less money and less years than poseys deal. In the prime of his career. He has been a celtic his whole career and knew the system and was just creating an identity in the NBA.

And what did it eventualy boil down to? 1 extra year at 3 mil? Chump change.

And please don't give me the "TA wanted to start bit"

At the time, I think Danny's reasoning was:

1.  Tony was injured a lot;

2.  He consistently found himself in Doc's doghouse;

3.  He  was a limited player on offense, and turnover prone;

4.  He was bad for PR, with his trial, etc.;

5.  Danny  wanted to keep maximum flexibility for the summer of 2012.

In hindsight, it was a mistake, as we almost instantly missed Tony's defensive contributions and his toughness.  However, at the time, I understood Danny's thinking.

[BballTim]

  The funny thing about this topic is if you took a reading closer to the times of the deals the biggest mistakes would either be Antoine for Raef or Raef (and the Brandon Roy pick) for Theo. Without those trades we'd probably still be looking back fondly on our last title team in 1986.

I liked he second deal, even though I was in love with Rudy Gay at the time.  I did expect Telfair to be a bigger impact than he was, but it was clear at the time that Ratliff was the key to either making a big trade or having the financial flexibility to keep our young guys.

I wasn't a big fan of the Antoine deal.  Raef was damaged goods on a huge contract.  Danny recovered from that deal pretty well, though, picking up Tony Allen and Delonte West.

  I pretty much took a wait and see approach, although I felt most of the blame for the Raef fiasco should have gone to the doctor who led Danny to believe that the surgery he had was going to be a much more effective player.

[Roy H.]

It's easy to go back in the draft, and cherry pick the gems out of the 2nd round, so I'll stay away from those obvious answers (though would gladly go back in time and make those picks).

But how about James Posey?

Signed for a 2 year deal for $6.67m with the 2nd year being his option (which he opted out of).  Then we lost him the next year when he signed a 4 year, $25m deal with NO (which I think a lot of us agree was too long a deal for him).  I believe the Celtics were offering the full mid-level for 2-3 years, or something around that, right?

So what if he just signed Posey for 3 or 4 years in the first place?  Maybe offer 3yr/$15m in 2007 (or possibly even a few million less) instead of essentially offering 1yr/$3.2m and having to try to re-sign him the next year.  Would that have been possible with our cap position at the time?

He would have helped (though probably wouldn't have made much of a difference in '09, but would have still have useful in '10, more so than Daniels or Finley).

We couldn't sign him to a deal like that in the first place.  Posey signed under market value, purposely to try to earn that last big pay day.  Unless the C's offered him close to the full MLE, he would have demanded the option after 1 year, no matter what.

I do think one of Danny's biggest mistakes though, was waiting on Posey for so long.  He let all of the options to replace him come off the market in the time while Posey was deciding what to do.  Danny should have given him a take it or leave it offer, and then moved on quickly.

You say we couldn't sign him to a deal like that in the first place, but then say it would take close to the full mid-level, but that's what I was suggesting.  Like how this year we just signed Jason Terry with the mid-level for 3yr/$15m.  Unless when you say full mid-level, and you mean full years too, where I'm talking about just dollars.

Yes I'm saying instead of having James Posey play for cheap for one year.  Give him the mid-level for up to 4 years in 2007.  Instead of offering that for 3 years in 2008.  Though ideally you could sign him for a little less, and maybe one less year.  I know he wanted that last payday, which ended up being a little more than the mid-level, but nobody was offering him that in 2007, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...

We didn't have the full mid-level available in 2007.  We'd used around $1.5 million of it on Eddie House, I believe.

[Chris]

He has been a celtic his whole career and knew the system and was just creating an identity in the NBA.

Well, lets not forget that he also had yet to show any consistency on the C's, and didn't do anything to grab the role they wanted him to play. 

Allen thrived when he went to Memphis, because he fit in perfectly with what they wanted from him.  He wasn't able to do that in Boston. 

Could he have if he was here another year?  Maybe.  Should this be put as a failure by Doc to make the most of his talents?  Perhaps.

But, let's be honest.  People were not pounding down Allen's door to sign him after his stint with Boston.  At that point, he still looked raw and erratic.

[bdm860]

It's easy to go back in the draft, and cherry pick the gems out of the 2nd round, so I'll stay away from those obvious answers (though would gladly go back in time and make those picks).

But how about James Posey?

Signed for a 2 year deal for $6.67m with the 2nd year being his option (which he opted out of).  Then we lost him the next year when he signed a 4 year, $25m deal with NO (which I think a lot of us agree was too long a deal for him).  I believe the Celtics were offering the full mid-level for 2-3 years, or something around that, right?

So what if he just signed Posey for 3 or 4 years in the first place?  Maybe offer 3yr/$15m in 2007 (or possibly even a few million less) instead of essentially offering 1yr/$3.2m and having to try to re-sign him the next year.  Would that have been possible with our cap position at the time?

He would have helped (though probably wouldn't have made much of a difference in '09, but would have still have useful in '10, more so than Daniels or Finley).

We couldn't sign him to a deal like that in the first place.  Posey signed under market value, purposely to try to earn that last big pay day.  Unless the C's offered him close to the full MLE, he would have demanded the option after 1 year, no matter what.

I do think one of Danny's biggest mistakes though, was waiting on Posey for so long.  He let all of the options to replace him come off the market in the time while Posey was deciding what to do.  Danny should have given him a take it or leave it offer, and then moved on quickly.

You say we couldn't sign him to a deal like that in the first place, but then say it would take close to the full mid-level, but that's what I was suggesting.  Like how this year we just signed Jason Terry with the mid-level for 3yr/$15m.  Unless when you say full mid-level, and you mean full years too, where I'm talking about just dollars.

Yes I'm saying instead of having James Posey play for cheap for one year.  Give him the mid-level for up to 4 years in 2007.  Instead of offering that for 3 years in 2008.  Though ideally you could sign him for a little less, and maybe one less year.  I know he wanted that last payday, which ended up being a little more than the mid-level, but nobody was offering him that in 2007, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...

We didn't have the full mid-level available in 2007.  We'd used around $1.5 million of it on Eddie House, I believe.

That's what I thought was the case, but wasn't sure, and looking back Eddie did sign first. 

But while we're going back in time and changing things, I would give Eddie the LLE or vet min (if we had the LLE, really get the impression he only ever got very low 1 year offers) if it enabled us to sign Posey longer term.  And would actually be okay if we had to pass on House altogether (or heaven forbid pass on Pollard).  Don't get me wrong I liked Eddie (and loved Lil' House), but when we got Cassell later he wasn't really necessary.

Securing Posey for multiple years would have been better than Posey for 1 year + House, IMO.  (Though ideally, I'd want Posey for multiple years and then find a way to still sign House).

[nickagneta]

There's really not much different I would do because, let's face facts, it was KG's knee injury that cost the Celtics a repeat title and maybe a three peat. Everything else was window dressing.

I do say I think his absolute worst move was signing Jermaine O'Neal. That was just an awful move.

[BballTim]

It's easy to go back in the draft, and cherry pick the gems out of the 2nd round, so I'll stay away from those obvious answers (though would gladly go back in time and make those picks).

But how about James Posey?

Signed for a 2 year deal for $6.67m with the 2nd year being his option (which he opted out of).  Then we lost him the next year when he signed a 4 year, $25m deal with NO (which I think a lot of us agree was too long a deal for him).  I believe the Celtics were offering the full mid-level for 2-3 years, or something around that, right?

So what if he just signed Posey for 3 or 4 years in the first place?  Maybe offer 3yr/$15m in 2007 (or possibly even a few million less) instead of essentially offering 1yr/$3.2m and having to try to re-sign him the next year.  Would that have been possible with our cap position at the time?

He would have helped (though probably wouldn't have made much of a difference in '09, but would have still have useful in '10, more so than Daniels or Finley).

We couldn't sign him to a deal like that in the first place.  Posey signed under market value, purposely to try to earn that last big pay day.  Unless the C's offered him close to the full MLE, he would have demanded the option after 1 year, no matter what.

I do think one of Danny's biggest mistakes though, was waiting on Posey for so long.  He let all of the options to replace him come off the market in the time while Posey was deciding what to do.  Danny should have given him a take it or leave it offer, and then moved on quickly.

You say we couldn't sign him to a deal like that in the first place, but then say it would take close to the full mid-level, but that's what I was suggesting.  Like how this year we just signed Jason Terry with the mid-level for 3yr/$15m.  Unless when you say full mid-level, and you mean full years too, where I'm talking about just dollars.

Yes I'm saying instead of having James Posey play for cheap for one year.  Give him the mid-level for up to 4 years in 2007.  Instead of offering that for 3 years in 2008.  Though ideally you could sign him for a little less, and maybe one less year.  I know he wanted that last payday, which ended up being a little more than the mid-level, but nobody was offering him that in 2007, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...

We didn't have the full mid-level available in 2007.  We'd used around $1.5 million of it on Eddie House, I believe.

  Posey made over $6M in 06-07. His reputation took a hit after the title year and he was (IIRC) looking for a 1 year deal in order to get a better deal the following summer.

[pearljammer10]

One move I wish Danny would have pulled off would be bringing in David West two years ago. In the end it turned out the West to Boston rumors were overhyped and it wasn't ever really close, but I think his inside presence, scoring, rebounding and toughness would fill a lot of holes on our roster the last few years.

Its not exactly Danny's fault, especially since West chose Indiana anyway, but I wish that he could have worked harder to convince West that he could be the difference maker for another championship run and after that we'd have enough cap space and talent to keep it going. It would have been a sign and trade in which the Celtics sent basically Jermaine O'Neal and filler for West. Absolute steal.

Yeah you can cosign me to this one as well. Bringing in West would have been a killer addition for us.

[Roy H.]

There's really not much different I would do because, let's face facts, it was KG's knee injury that cost the Celtics a repeat title and maybe a three peat. Everything else was window dressing.

I do say I think his absolute worst move was signing Jermaine O'Neal. That was just an awful move.

At the time, I didn't mind it.  JO was coming off a good year (he put up something like 15 points, 7 rebounds, and efficient shooting, if I remember correctly), and has always been a pretty good defender.  I thought he was a good fit.

Instead, he basically just collected a paycheck for two seasons.

[Moranis]

Some others to ponder, what if Pierce for #3 (to get Chris Paul) had actually been pulled off.  Now granted, the Blazers were the ones that pulled out of it, but imagine how different the franchise would have been if that trade went through.

As for what I would undo, I'd probably just go recent and say not re-sign KG to a 3 year contract last summer.  As that signing is what led to Green, Bass, Terry, and Lee coming on for one more 3 year run.  I'd have rather just let KG retire or signed him to a 1 year deal only, and not made all of the moves that followed.

[slamtheking]

Maybe this doesn't totally fall in line w/ the question but here's my biggest 'what if' to ponder:

What if instead of trading Delonte West, Wally Szerbiak and the #5 pick in the 2007 draft for Ray Allen, the Celtics kept the fifth pick and selected Joakim Noah.

Could the Celtics have found another way to bring in a star to attract Garnett? How incredible would those 2 be together? If not, would Pierce demand a trade?

If that was the case would we have been better off building around Rondo, Jefferson, Noah while keeping the picks lost in Garnett trade (like the pick Minny blew on Jonny Flynn), and acquiring assets for Szerbiak and Pierce.

another very good 'what if'

a team with Rondo, Big Al, Noah, Perk, TA/West, PP, Gomes, Powe could have been pretty good with a couple of decent SGs and SFs added in.

[alley oop]

1.) Trading Perk while we were the best team in the East two years ago

Perk was not the same player though in all fairness, he has and was in decline then.  He was a gimp when we let him go and we ended up with Jeff Green.

...

To my memory, Perk gave the Thunder more in the playoffs that year than either JO or Green gave the Celtics, and he knew the Celtics system in his sleep. Also, Perk would have been a deterrent to what Wade did to Rondo.

[Chris]

1.) Trading Perk while we were the best team in the East two years ago

Perk was not the same player though in all fairness, he has and was in decline then.  He was a gimp when we let him go and we ended up with Jeff Green.

...

To my memory, Perk gave the Thunder more in the playoffs that year than either JO or Green gave the Celtics. And Perk would have been a deterrent to what Wade did to Rondo.

Perhaps, but it doesn't mean he would have been a difference maker.  It would have hurt the floor spacing even more, and the C's offensive struggles had already started at that point. 

I just hate doing that kind of "what if", because there are too many variable. 

[Roy H.]

Some others to ponder, what if Pierce for #3 (to get Chris Paul) had actually been pulled off.  Now granted, the Blazers were the ones that pulled out of it, but imagine how different the franchise would have been if that trade went through.

It certainly would have been exciting.  I wonder, though, if we would have been more successful.