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The fallacy of blowing it up
« on: May 07, 2013, 10:38:06 AM »

Offline FreeGreen

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To those who propose "blowing it up" and a "true rebuild" ... I posit that path is NOT the most efficient way to build a championship roster.  (Caveat:  This is only true if you believe Rondo can be a potential top 3 player on a title team, which I do.)

By looking at the teams that are in the finals over the past decade +, I think you will find that the key is to get one superstar player however you can (this may require tanking).  Then you collect "assets" and flip them to some other team for a 2nd superstar player.

Here is my quick synopsis, which I freely admit is open to interpretation. I tried to be as even-handed as possible.
 
By my reckoning, 19 of the 20 finals teams had an established star and acquired secondary stars and supporting cast from either late in the draft, trades, or free agency.  Only 1 team "blew it up" (The Sonics / Thunder) and that team also had an unprecedented run of draft fortune.

Note that if a team appears multiple times I will only update the entry if the team changed dramatically.

Also note the number of teams that were bounced in the 1st or 2nd round prior to making their runs.

Thank you for reading.

-- FreeGreen --


2012 Heat / Thunder
Heat:  Drafted Wade in 2003.  Cleared cap space, signed 2 more max stars to come play with him.  Lost in the Finals and 1st round prior two season. 
Key players :  Wade (5th) via draft, Lebron (1st) via free agency, Bosh (4th) via free agency

Thunder:  Seattle actually DID blow it up.  Got lucky in the lottery to jump from 5th pick to 2nd.  Got lucky that Oden went first.  Got lucky that Durant was sitting there 2nd.
 
Then they were still terrible.  Got lucky in the lottery again (Westbrook).

Then they were still terrible.  Got lucky in the lottery and moved up to 3.  Picked up Harden.  Now they’re good.
They lost in the Conference Finals and the 1st round the prior 2 seasons.

Key players:  Durant (2nd) via draft, Westbrook (4th) via draft, Harden (3rd) via draft

2011:  Mavericks / Heat
Mavericks:  drafted Dirk in 1998. Bounced in 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs the prior 2 years.  Picked up Marion and Butler. 

Key players:  Dirk Nowitski (9th) via draft, Jason Terry (10th) via trade, Tyson Chandler (2nd) via trade

2010:  Lakers / Celtics


2009:  Lakers / Magic

Magic:  Drafted Howard in 2004.  Tinkered around with the supporting pieces, got lucky with the KG injury and made it to the Finals.  They had lost in the 1st round and 2nd round the prior 2 seasons.
Key Players: Howard (1st) via draft, Rashard Lewis (32nd) via free agency, Jameer Nelson (20th) via trade

2008:  Celtics / Lakers
Celtics drafted Pierce in 1998, and had middling success for his first 9 seasons.  Tanked the season, lost the draft lottery.  Traded assets who were all mid-round picks or later for KG.  Also traded their 5th overall pick + west to a Seattle team engaged in a fire sale for Ray Allen.  Boston was not a playoff team in 2007.

Key Players:  Pierce (10th) draft, Garnett (5th) via trade, Allen (5th) via trade, Rondo (21st) draft

Lakers were also middling in the post-Shaq Kobe years.  They had lost in the 1st round the previous 2 years and Kobe had demanded a trade in the offseason.  Instead they fleeced Memphis for Pau Gasol and made a run to the finals.

Key Players:  Kobe (13th) draft, Gasol (3rd) trade, Odom (4th) trade

2007:  Spurs / Cavs
Spurs drafted Duncan in 1997 after tanking the year with Robinson injured.  They acquired Parker and Ginobelli with late round draft picks.  The Spurs won the title and lost in the 2nd round the prior 2 seasons.
Key Players:  Duncan (1st) draft, Parker (28th) draft, Ginobili (57th) draft

Cavs tanked and won the 2003 Draft Lottery.  Picked Lebron.  Even with all that massive luck of sucking in the right year and winning the draft lottery this is their only finals appearance.  The Cavs missed the playoffs and lost in the 2nd round the prior two seasons.
Key Players:  Lebron (1st) draft.

2006:  Heat / Mavericks
Heat:  Had Wade, signed Shaq and some peripheral players.  They had lost in the ECF and the 2nd round the prior 2 years.
Key Players:  Wade (5th) draft, Shaq (1st) via trade)
Mavs:  Had Dirk, Jason Terry and a bunch of people you don’t remember.  Made the Finals after they had lost in the 1st round and 2nd round the prior 2 seasons.
Key Players:  Dirk (9th) draft, Terry (10th) trade, Stackhouse (3rd) trade

2005:  Spurs / Pistons

2004:  Pistons / Lakers
Pistons: Balanced group with Billups, Hamilton, Prince and Wallace.  Traded for Sheed midseason and that pushed them over the top.  Had lost in the ECF and 2nd round the prior 2 years.
Key players:  Billups (4th) Free Agency, Hamilton (7th) trade, Ben Wallace (undrafted) trade, Prince (23rd pick) draft, Sheed (4th) trade.

2003:  Spurs / Nets

2002:  Lakers / Nets
Nets:  Traded Marbury for Kidd.  Added some mid round draft picks (Richard Jefferson).  Somehow made the finals twice in a row.  (Man the East stunk.)

2001:  Lakers / 76ers
Lakers:  Drafted Kobe, signed Shaq as free agent.
76ers:  Were terrible.  Jumped up to 1st in lottery.  Drafted Iverson.

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 10:53:45 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Fallacy of your fallacy:

The following teams needed abysmal 'blow it up' seasons leading up to their finals run:

Spurs (Duncan)
76ers (Iverson)
Celtics (2007)
Cavs (LeBron)
Magic (Howard)

There are three teams who didn't need a bottom of the barrel year (and corresponding draft pick) to get the pieces needed for a championship run. Those teams are the Los Angeles Lakers, Miami Heat (although, they still HAD that year when they drafted Michael Beasley), and Detroit Pistons. The Lakers still however had to fall from grace to a 10th overall pick, the year following a Finals appearance, and even then needed what was at the time a very unlikely and extremely lopsided deal to acquire their second star.

The problem with your theory is that in order to acquire that primary franchise presence, the team had to be terrible in most cases. Pierce, Kobe, Dirk, and KG seem to be the outliers, and in today's NBA the closest we have to that type of production from someone outside the top 10 drafted in the last 7 or 8 years is who..Rajon Rondo? Paul George? After those guys we're getting into your Ty Lawsons and Kenneth Farieds, etc..

The imperative is to acquire the franchise level talent. The most common way to do that is through the draft, and through the lottery.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 11:15:47 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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There are three teams who didn't need a bottom of the barrel year (and corresponding draft pick) to get the pieces needed for a championship run. Those teams are the Los Angeles Lakers, Miami Heat




2002-2003 Miami Heat went 25-57 in order to draft D. Wade.


Lebron and Bosh never come to the Heat unless Wade is already there.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2013, 11:27:55 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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There are three teams who didn't need a bottom of the barrel year (and corresponding draft pick) to get the pieces needed for a championship run. Those teams are the Los Angeles Lakers, Miami Heat




2002-2003 Miami Heat went 25-57 in order to draft D. Wade.


Lebron and Bosh never come to the Heat unless Wade is already there.

So them too.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2013, 12:11:14 PM »

Offline PierceMVP08

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Does anybody remember the last time the Celtics were in full rebuild mode? It took them 7 years to even make the playoffs!  There is too much luck involved in rebuilding through the draft to "blow it up" especially when you have established quality pieces on your team in Rondo and Jeff Green.

There is no guarantee you will win the top pick when you blow it up.  Remember 2007?  We had the FIFTH pick after a season in which we lost 18 straight games?

Who remember the mid to late 90's?  We were pinning our hopes and dreams on Eric Williams, Ron Mercer, etc. etc.  Everyone says the 2014 draft is LOADED but so was the 96 draft.  I loved Antoine but he did not bring us to the promised land.  There are too many variable to depend on a clean start.

Beyond that, the culture which was bred in Boston over the past 6 years vanishes.  You no longer have a winning culture and THAT is huge.

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 12:25:28 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Does anybody remember the last time the Celtics were in full rebuild mode? It took them 7 years to even make the playoffs!  There is too much luck involved in rebuilding through the draft to "blow it up" especially when you have established quality pieces on your team in Rondo and Jeff Green.

The last time the Celtics were in full rebuild mode was 2006-2007.

Quote
There is no guarantee you will win the top pick when you blow it up.  Remember 2007?  We had the FIFTH pick after a season in which we lost 18 straight games?

Yes. I remember that, it allowed us to get Ray Allen, which allowed us to acquire Kevin Garnett.

Quote
Who remember the mid to late 90's?  We were pinning our hopes and dreams on Eric Williams, Ron Mercer, etc. etc.  Everyone says the 2014 draft is LOADED but so was the 96 draft.  I loved Antoine but he did not bring us to the promised land.  There are too many variable to depend on a clean start.

Beyond that, the culture which was bred in Boston over the past 6 years vanishes.  You no longer have a winning culture and THAT is huge.

I'm not going to touch the 1990's, we've got a guy named Danny Ainge, a different ownership group, and well...I'm just not going to talk smack about Dino Radja or Vitaly Potapenko.

But the 'winning culture'..if Garnett retires, and we have the option to continue to improve the club's assets going forward, what's the more 'winning' option?

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 12:51:35 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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It's going to be slow whether we rebuild or continue to bleed out in the slow death of old age.  If you think blowing it up is a fallacy.  What the heck is riding it out?  Suicide?

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2013, 01:19:51 PM »

Offline BballTim

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It's going to be slow whether we rebuild or continue to bleed out in the slow death of old age.  If you think blowing it up is a fallacy.  What the heck is riding it out?  Suicide?

  Consider 3 scenarios:

  Rondo and Sully come back healthy, add a player or two, possibly make a trade to consolidate contracts, contend next year.

  Flip some or all of what we have on the roster (players, KG and PP's money-saving contracts, draft picks) to accumulate enough star power to compete in the future.

  Tank and either get a LeBron/Shaq level of player or a couple of players on the level of a CP/Rose/Harden or the like.

  How would you rate the likelihood of those three scenarios? Would you say that the 3rd scenario is so overwhelmingly more likely than the first two scenarios that we need to embark on that path immediately instead of trying 1 or 2 for a year or two and *then* tanking?

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2013, 01:26:10 PM »

Offline PierceMVP08

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Does anybody remember the last time the Celtics were in full rebuild mode? It took them 7 years to even make the playoffs!  There is too much luck involved in rebuilding through the draft to "blow it up" especially when you have established quality pieces on your team in Rondo and Jeff Green.

The last time the Celtics were in full rebuild mode was 2006-2007.

Certainly not the last time we were in rebuild mode.  Full rebuild means dealing Rondo.  We had Paul Pierce on our team at the time.  THAT is the only reason we were able to land KG. 

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2013, 01:26:41 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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When you have a hard and fast rule like the only way to build a contender is to tank and hope to get a franchise player (or more) at the top of the draft and there are more exceptions to that rule in recent history than there are actual scenarios that fit it, it may be time to re-think whether or not it's a good rule.

 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2013, 01:28:59 PM »

Offline PierceMVP08

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Quote
There is no guarantee you will win the top pick when you blow it up.  Remember 2007?  We had the FIFTH pick after a season in which we lost 18 straight games?

Yes. I remember that, it allowed us to get Ray Allen, which allowed us to acquire Kevin Garnett.

Again, we were not in full rebuild.  If you acquire Ray Allen but no Paul Pierce, KG still doesn't come here.  To be in full rebuild mode, you have to get rid of Rondo.

Quote
Who remember the mid to late 90's?  We were pinning our hopes and dreams on Eric Williams, Ron Mercer, etc. etc.  Everyone says the 2014 draft is LOADED but so was the 96 draft.  I loved Antoine but he did not bring us to the promised land.  There are too many variable to depend on a clean start.

Beyond that, the culture which was bred in Boston over the past 6 years vanishes.  You no longer have a winning culture and THAT is huge.


I'm not going to touch the 1990's, we've got a guy named Danny Ainge, a different ownership group, and well...I'm just not going to talk smack about Dino Radja or Vitaly Potapenko.

But the 'winning culture'..if Garnett retires, and we have the option to continue to improve the club's assets going forward, what's the more 'winning' option?

You can't have selective memory.  This is most certainly what can happen.  Look at the Bulls.  They were heartless when they gutted the Bulls championship teams.  It took them a decade to contend.

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2013, 01:29:53 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I'm not going to touch the 1990's, we've got a guy named Danny Ainge, a different ownership group, and well...I'm just not going to talk smack about Dino Radja or Vitaly Potapenko.


  I really wish I could remove the whole "Pitino running the Celts" thing from my memory.

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2013, 01:56:10 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Quote
There is no guarantee you will win the top pick when you blow it up.  Remember 2007?  We had the FIFTH pick after a season in which we lost 18 straight games?

Yes. I remember that, it allowed us to get Ray Allen, which allowed us to acquire Kevin Garnett.

Again, we were not in full rebuild.  If you acquire Ray Allen but no Paul Pierce, KG still doesn't come here.  To be in full rebuild mode, you have to get rid of Rondo.
But we weren't in full rebuild mode right away either.  I mean the 95-96 Celtics still had Dino Radja, Rick Fox, Dana Barros, Dee Brown, Pervis Ellison, Sherman Douglas, and David Wesley.  In other words, it had far too many good veterans in their prime to be in tank mode.  Radja and Barros got hurt in the 96-97 season and even Toine coming on wasn't able to save that team without the veteran leaders.  The team then couldn't really rebuild properly because Toine was too good on his own and once Pierce was here, they had no shot a proper rebuild.   
2025 Historical Draft - Cleveland Cavaliers - 1st pick

Starters - Luka, JB, Lebron, Wemby, Shaq
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Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2013, 02:07:35 PM »

Offline DavorCroatiaFan

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Quote from: IndeedProceed on Today at 12:25:28 PM


    I'm not going to touch the 1990's, we've got a guy named Danny Ainge, a different ownership group, and well...I'm just not going to talk smack about Dino Radja or Vitaly Potapenko.


Come on...you cant compare Radja to Potapenko. Dino Radja is third best Celtics PF in a last 35 years behind Garnett and McHale...
No1 Celtics fan in Croatia

Re: The fallacy of blowing it up
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2013, 02:20:47 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Quote
Quote
There is no guarantee you will win the top pick when you blow it up.  Remember 2007?  We had the FIFTH pick after a season in which we lost 18 straight games?

Yes. I remember that, it allowed us to get Ray Allen, which allowed us to acquire Kevin Garnett.

Again, we were not in full rebuild.  If you acquire Ray Allen but no Paul Pierce, KG still doesn't come here.  To be in full rebuild mode, you have to get rid of Rondo.

Eh, I don't see it like that. Rebuild for me means to change the fundamental structure of your team. Eschewing Pierce's contract for assets or cap space, Garnett retiring, unloading (if possible) Terry, Lee, maybe others, and being patient with Rondo's rehabilitation (read: he doesnt come back before february at least). You could start a 'full rebuild' without Rondo, but that's not a given.

My point with us in 2007 was to show we had nearly a whole roster turnover. Of the guys who had received considerable playing time the year previous, only Perkins, Rondo, Scalabrine, and Pierce remained.

We rebuilt the entire structure of the team, from a young talented squad, to a team of vets conventionally thought to be past their apex but still in their prime, with some young potential (lets not forget, Rondo while showing some defensive promise was NOT the guy he is today..and few people (MDFNP and BBT excluded of course) thought he'd turn into half the player he is now).

Quote
Quote
Who remember the mid to late 90's?  We were pinning our hopes and dreams on Eric Williams, Ron Mercer, etc. etc.  Everyone says the 2014 draft is LOADED but so was the 96 draft.  I loved Antoine but he did not bring us to the promised land.  There are too many variable to depend on a clean start.

Beyond that, the culture which was bred in Boston over the past 6 years vanishes.  You no longer have a winning culture and THAT is huge.

I'm not going to touch the 1990's, we've got a guy named Danny Ainge, a different ownership group, and well...I'm just not going to talk smack about Dino Radja or Vitaly Potapenko.

But the 'winning culture'..if Garnett retires, and we have the option to continue to improve the club's assets going forward, what's the more 'winning' option?

You can't have selective memory.  This is most certainly what can happen.  Look at the Bulls.  They were heartless when they gutted the Bulls championship teams.  It took them a decade to contend.
[/quote]

I don't think its a situation of me having a selective memory as you making false comparisons. The Celtics have a different ownership group. They have a different GM. They're a different team than the one Bird, McHale, and Parish left in 1993. They share WAY more in common with the team Danny Ainge inherited in 2003 than the one that never bounced back after the big 3 left.

For instance, let's consider a 'full rebuild' ala the Seattle Supersonics.

They had the core of a team (Ray, Shard, Ridnour, Collison, etc) that had won the division just 2 years prior, but had suffered two consecutive disappointing seasons. They had also had the serendipitous luck of acquiring the 2nd pick in a draft that was allegedly loaded with talent on the top end, with multiple franchise caliber players, and many other potential all-star caliber players.

So they didn't trade Ray Allen on spec alone. They knew they'd have Durant or Oden (I know that we traded Ray Allen during the draft, but I have no idea when that was agreed to), they knew they'd have one of Conley, Green, or Noah, and they'd begin to build around them.

Is that all that different than counting on Rondo as our ace in the hole, tanking like a sherman while he's out, and setting out to build around him and one or two young pieces and a potentially high-value asset in the 2014 draft?

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner