Author Topic: Rondo's Age  (Read 7240 times)

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Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2013, 11:18:29 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Rondo + Jeff Green + Sully + Bradley

Add a good SG and another big that are decent and you have a team that makes the playoffs a lot I would wager.  2 drafts and this team would be ok  I think.

But it needs a large good shooting two guard that can hit the three and a big who can protect the rim.   I think Green can score,  Rondo can pass and Sully is a saavy big.  We know Bradley can D up guys.   It is a way better core than the post Larry Era.
How are we going to acquire said "good SG" and "big"? 

I get that if you could land Big Al or Cousins to put next to Rondo, it makes our prospects of making the playoffs more realistic... but how do you acquire those guys?  If it was easy, we would have done it.

Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2013, 01:37:03 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Rondo + Jeff Green + Sullinger + Bradley.

Sure, that's a nice enough group.  All you need is a superstar center (e.g. Duncan or Shaq in their prime) to make that team a contender.


It's not enough to "make the playoffs a lot."  If that's your goal, you aim to be the Atlanta Hawks of the last 6 years.
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Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2013, 02:07:46 AM »

Offline clover

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He's a 4 time allstar, but he's limited in certain areas and not a "superstar" like LeBron, Durant... or Kobe, Duncan and KG in their prime.  He's coming off a major injury and will have a ton of competition in the coming years.  Does he continue to make the all-star game when D-Rose gets back?... In the East alone there is Holiday, Wall (22 on the rise), Rose, Irving, Deron Williams. 

Maybe.

I see him as a Chaucey Billups type (5 straight all-star appearances).  Good player... can be a key part of a title team if he's surrounded by other great players.  BUt you wouldn't have built a franchise around Chauncey Billups.  And building a team around Rondo doesn't make sense. 

After KG and Pierce leave... this team will no longer be a contender.  That's a fact.  It's not even a contender now with them... we're a 7th seed team and we might get thrashed in round 1.   To win a championship you need an elite big man and an elite scorer.  Generally every champion has a top 5 player.  Rondo is definitely not on that level.  He might not even be a top 5 point guard after this season. 

So how do you become a contender again?  Well, you can try desperately to land a top 5 player.  Chris Paul and Howard might qualify... they are both unrestricted free agents, but we don't have cap space and they aren't going anywhere.   LeBron is a free agent in 2014... good luck with that.

Who in the league right now is likely to reach that level?  Maybe Irving?  Maybe Anthony Davis.  I can't see Boston landing either.

I'm hearing a ton of people saying that Andrew Wiggins (currently in High school) is the greatest prospect since LeBron James... which is saying something, because Kevin Durant was as can't-miss as a prospect gets. 

So what i'm saying is... the bottom line is that the most likely scenario of us landing a top 5 player (and becoming a contender) is tanking next season and lucking into Andrew Wiggins.  The odds are severely limited.  But you have 0% chance of getting Durant.  You have 0% chance of getting LeBron.  You have 0% chance of getting Irving.  You have 0% chance of getting Anthony Davis.  If we had one of the 5 worst records in the league, we'd have a 10% chance of landing Wiggins.  It's tiny, but it's more than anything else. 

That's your best and only option for building a contender.  So say we managed to tank... say we managed to luck into Andrew Wiggins.  Say we managed to do all of this while holding onto Rajon Rondo.   Rondo would be 29 years old Wiggins rookie year.   

If Wiggins follows the same developmental path as Durant, the Celtics wouldn't be a playoff team again until his 3rd season... Rondo would be 31 years old.   If Wiggins follows the same developmental path as Durant, they wouldn't be a serious contender until his 5th year.. by then Wiggins would be 24 and Rondo would be 33 years old and on his way out.  I'd rather have other young players to surround Wiggins with.

You could also just wait for Kyrie Irving and Anthony Davis to become free agents.  If they hit free agency at all, it will not be for another 5 or 6 years. 

TL;DR:  Rondo doesn't fit into a "rebuild".  Our best-case scenario is that we'll be a contender again in 2018 built around a top 5 superstar (Andrew Wiggins) ... by then Rondo would be 33 years old on past his prime.  Far more likely that we will not be a contender again until the 2020s...   

You're right--Rondo's likely not an AS in the East after this year, unless there's a rash of top PG injuries.  I really think Danny would have pulled the trigger this year if not for the injury.

Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2013, 03:32:04 AM »

Offline celticsleyte

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I remember the same line of thought about trading Pierce because we would never be good enough to win a championship during his prime.  We held on to him and let other teams blow up their franchises and it worked out.

The devil is in the details.  There are different ways to build a top team. I really want to keep Rondo unless we are blown away with an offer of top talent.  I think he is a winner and will continue to improve for a few seasons.

I am wishing on a talented player falling to our pick in the upcoming draft.

Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2013, 04:29:02 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I remember the same line of thought about trading Pierce because we would never be good enough to win a championship during his prime.  We held on to him and let other teams blow up their franchises and it worked out.

The devil is in the details.  There are different ways to build a top team. I really want to keep Rondo unless we are blown away with an offer of top talent.  I think he is a winner and will continue to improve for a few seasons.

I am wishing on a talented player falling to our pick in the upcoming draft.

The thing is, when Pierce was 27 we had more trade assets, I think, than we do now. 

Also, let's not get this confused -- Paul Pierce in his prime was MUCH better than Rondo will ever be.  That shouldn't be an insult to Rondo.

What's more, players like Pierce tend to age much better than players like Rondo.  So there was good reason to think that Pierce could be a top scorer for another 8-10 years even when he was getting closer to 30.  It turns out he is still a very good scorer even at 35, though he'd be best as a 2nd or 3rd option these days.
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Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2013, 08:45:21 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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He's a 4 time allstar, but he's limited in certain areas and not a "superstar" like LeBron, Durant... or Kobe, Duncan and KG in their prime.  He's coming off a major injury and will have a ton of competition in the coming years.  Does he continue to make the all-star game when D-Rose gets back?... In the East alone there is Holiday, Wall (22 on the rise), Rose, Irving, Deron Williams. 

Maybe.

I see him as a Chaucey Billups type (5 straight all-star appearances).  Good player... can be a key part of a title team if he's surrounded by other great players.  BUt you wouldn't have built a franchise around Chauncey Billups.  And building a team around Rondo doesn't make sense. 

After KG and Pierce leave... this team will no longer be a contender.  That's a fact.  It's not even a contender now with them... we're a 7th seed team and we might get thrashed in round 1.   To win a championship you need an elite big man and an elite scorer.  Generally every champion has a top 5 player.  Rondo is definitely not on that level.  He might not even be a top 5 point guard after this season. 

So how do you become a contender again?  Well, you can try desperately to land a top 5 player.  Chris Paul and Howard might qualify... they are both unrestricted free agents, but we don't have cap space and they aren't going anywhere.   LeBron is a free agent in 2014... good luck with that.

Who in the league right now is likely to reach that level?  Maybe Irving?  Maybe Anthony Davis.  I can't see Boston landing either.

I'm hearing a ton of people saying that Andrew Wiggins (currently in High school) is the greatest prospect since LeBron James... which is saying something, because Kevin Durant was as can't-miss as a prospect gets. 

So what i'm saying is... the bottom line is that the most likely scenario of us landing a top 5 player (and becoming a contender) is tanking next season and lucking into Andrew Wiggins.  The odds are severely limited.  But you have 0% chance of getting Durant.  You have 0% chance of getting LeBron.  You have 0% chance of getting Irving.  You have 0% chance of getting Anthony Davis.  If we had one of the 5 worst records in the league, we'd have a 10% chance of landing Wiggins.  It's tiny, but it's more than anything else. 

That's your best and only option for building a contender.  So say we managed to tank... say we managed to luck into Andrew Wiggins.  Say we managed to do all of this while holding onto Rajon Rondo.   Rondo would be 29 years old Wiggins rookie year.   

If Wiggins follows the same developmental path as Durant, the Celtics wouldn't be a playoff team again until his 3rd season... Rondo would be 31 years old.   If Wiggins follows the same developmental path as Durant, they wouldn't be a serious contender until his 5th year.. by then Wiggins would be 24 and Rondo would be 33 years old and on his way out.  I'd rather have other young players to surround Wiggins with.

You could also just wait for Kyrie Irving and Anthony Davis to become free agents.  If they hit free agency at all, it will not be for another 5 or 6 years. 

TL;DR:  Rondo doesn't fit into a "rebuild".  Our best-case scenario is that we'll be a contender again in 2018 built around a top 5 superstar (Andrew Wiggins) ... by then Rondo would be 33 years old on past his prime.  Far more likely that we will not be a contender again until the 2020s...   

That is a well written and thoughtful post, but there are some major flaws in  the "top five player or bust" plan.  It sounds like a truism that you need a top five player, and I understand that it's one that many have hitched their wagon to.  However, you are failing to look realistically at the lay of the land, regarding the top players in today's NBA. 

When you look at the top players in the NBA, there are a couple of levels.  The first level consists of Lebron James.  He's is clearly playing at a level by himself.  In the next tier below him is Kevin Durant.  Below that is a third level which consists of a considerably larger group of players who are stars, or players with the potential to be stars, but no one who looks likely to challenge to be in the James or Durant category.  Rajon Rondo is a member of that third tier of players, along with guys like Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Blake Griffin, James Harden, Carmelo Anthony, LaMarcus Aldridge, Tony Parker, Derrick Rose and possibly guys like Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis, and John Wall.  It's a large list so I didn't include everybody. 

The debates over who belongs on that third list and where on the list they belong is sure to not reach anything approaching a consensus in the near future.  Some guys will have seasons where they move up the list, others will have seasons where they fall off the list.

Now, we look at Andre Wiggins.  I've read the scouting reports and seen the videos.  There is no doubt that the kid looks mighty impressive.  But, he's eighteen years old and still in high school.  I have no doubt that he has the talent to join that long third tier list fairly quickly upon entering the NBA, but I don't think there's any guarantee that he'll join that list above that's inhabited by only Lebron James and Kevin Durant. 

Even if Wiggins were to join that top tier and challenge Durant and James for the title of Best Player in the Game within five years or so, there's only one chance at him, and the likelihood of winning that lottery is really small.  If you put all your eggs in that basket and then fail to get your guy, you have effectively screwed the franchise's chances to be a contender for the foreseeable future. 

Ainge has started to gather some good pieces around Rondo for the near future.  The job's not complete with Bradley, Green, and Sullinger, but there's a better chance of continuing to build this young core into a contender around Rondo than there is in landing Andre Wiggins and waiting for him to turn into the "transcendent superstar" that he's already being pegged as at eighteen years of age. 

I'd rather take my chances rebuilding around Rondo.  Of course, there's no guarantee that we'll ever win another title with him, but I don't see any better options out there for securing number 18 in the future.  To be frank, your scenario is way more of a pipe dream than following the path that Danny has already begun for rebuilding this team.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 08:56:58 AM by Celtics18 »
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Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2013, 09:03:01 AM »

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He's a 4 time allstar, but he's limited in certain areas and not a "superstar" like LeBron, Durant... or Kobe, Duncan and KG in their prime.  He's coming off a major injury and will have a ton of competition in the coming years.  Does he continue to make the all-star game when D-Rose gets back?... In the East alone there is Holiday, Wall (22 on the rise), Rose, Irving, Deron Williams. 

Maybe.

I see him as a Chaucey Billups type (5 straight all-star appearances).  Good player... can be a key part of a title team if he's surrounded by other great players.  BUt you wouldn't have built a franchise around Chauncey Billups. And building a team around Rondo doesn't make sense. 

After KG and Pierce leave... this team will no longer be a contender.  That's a fact.  It's not even a contender now with them... we're a 7th seed team and we might get thrashed in round 1.   To win a championship you need an elite big man and an elite scorer.  Generally every champion has a top 5 player.  Rondo is definitely not on that level.  He might not even be a top 5 point guard after this season. 

So how do you become a contender again?  Well, you can try desperately to land a top 5 player.  Chris Paul and Howard might qualify... they are both unrestricted free agents, but we don't have cap space and they aren't going anywhere.   LeBron is a free agent in 2014... good luck with that.

Who in the league right now is likely to reach that level?  Maybe Irving?  Maybe Anthony Davis.  I can't see Boston landing either.

I'm hearing a ton of people saying that Andrew Wiggins (currently in High school) is the greatest prospect since LeBron James... which is saying something, because Kevin Durant was as can't-miss as a prospect gets. 

So what i'm saying is... the bottom line is that the most likely scenario of us landing a top 5 player (and becoming a contender) is tanking next season and lucking into Andrew Wiggins.  The odds are severely limited.  But you have 0% chance of getting Durant.  You have 0% chance of getting LeBron.  You have 0% chance of getting Irving.  You have 0% chance of getting Anthony Davis.  If we had one of the 5 worst records in the league, we'd have a 10% chance of landing Wiggins.  It's tiny, but it's more than anything else. 

That's your best and only option for building a contender.  So say we managed to tank... say we managed to luck into Andrew Wiggins.  Say we managed to do all of this while holding onto Rajon Rondo.   Rondo would be 29 years old Wiggins rookie year.   

If Wiggins follows the same developmental path as Durant, the Celtics wouldn't be a playoff team again until his 3rd season... Rondo would be 31 years old.   If Wiggins follows the same developmental path as Durant, they wouldn't be a serious contender until his 5th year.. by then Wiggins would be 24 and Rondo would be 33 years old and on his way out.  I'd rather have other young players to surround Wiggins with.

You could also just wait for Kyrie Irving and Anthony Davis to become free agents.  If they hit free agency at all, it will not be for another 5 or 6 years. 

TL;DR:  Rondo doesn't fit into a "rebuild".  Our best-case scenario is that we'll be a contender again in 2018 built around a top 5 superstar (Andrew Wiggins) ... by then Rondo would be 33 years old on past his prime.  Far more likely that we will not be a contender again until the 2020s...   

On the comparison to Billups and team building ...

I have long liked the idea of building a team in the mold of the 2004 Detroit Pistons with Rajon Rondo as the first piece of the puzzle in a post-Garnett/Pierce landscape.

I would happily go down that road.

Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2013, 09:58:33 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The problem with the Rondo / Billups comparison is that Billups got "Mr Big Shot" rep for a reason.  He was the MVP of those teams because he made the big shots, and he essentially carried those teams offensively when push came to shove.

Rondo is not an offensive leader in terms of scoring.  He cannot consistently lead the scoring of a team...he is a #2 piece.  He is Robin to Paul Pierce's Batman.  He NEEDS a dominant (i.e. ~20 PPG) scorer on the team in order to be successful.  The attention that a guy like Pierce or KG gets is what give Rondo the room to get to the basket, and the space to take those wide open mid range shots that he's been starting to hit with regularity lately.  Take away those big scorers and the defense turns all of its attention on Rondo, and he's not a guy who can score at will with that type of defensive attention on him.

He can't space the floor with his shooting either, and his lack of three point range means defenders will often sag off him to give help defense in the paint.  They just don't reset his shot from that range.

He's about as good a sidekick as you can get in this league (this side of Dwyane Wade) but he's a sidekick none the less.

Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2013, 10:41:09 AM »

Offline BballTim

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The problem with the Rondo / Billups comparison is that Billups got "Mr Big Shot" rep for a reason.  He was the MVP of those teams because he made the big shots, and he essentially carried those teams offensively when push came to shove.

Rondo is not an offensive leader in terms of scoring.  He cannot consistently lead the scoring of a team...he is a #2 piece.  He is Robin to Paul Pierce's Batman.  He NEEDS a dominant (i.e. ~20 PPG) scorer on the team in order to be successful.  The attention that a guy like Pierce or KG gets is what give Rondo the room to get to the basket, and the space to take those wide open mid range shots that he's been starting to hit with regularity lately.  Take away those big scorers and the defense turns all of its attention on Rondo, and he's not a guy who can score at will with that type of defensive attention on him.

  Billups was a better outside shooter than Rondo and a better clutch scorer but in his 3 trips to the finals he averaged 17-18 ppg. Rondo can give you that plus close to twice the rebounds and assists you'd get from Billups. When you're talking about how Rondo can't carry a team on offense keep in mind that Rondo scored or assisted a higher percentage of his points than any other player in the playoffs last year. Also, I'd say that Jeff Green looks like he'll be capable of giving you the 18 ppg or so you get from PP when he's the starting sf.

Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2013, 10:45:28 AM »

Offline BballTim

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It's not enough to "make the playoffs a lot."  If that's your goal, you aim to be the Atlanta Hawks of the last 6 years.

  That's kind of like aiming to be the Mavs before they won. Aiming to just plain suck until a superstar or two land in your lap sounds good on paper but it loses its luster after 4-5 years with no end in sight.

Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2013, 12:52:39 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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It's not enough to "make the playoffs a lot."  If that's your goal, you aim to be the Atlanta Hawks of the last 6 years.

  That's kind of like aiming to be the Mavs before they won. Aiming to just plain suck until a superstar or two land in your lap sounds good on paper but it loses its luster after 4-5 years with no end in sight.

I really don't think it has to be such a plain dichotomy, though.  It doesn't have to be "try to win at all costs and win 40 games a year" or "tank season after season until you get a superstar."

After all, the Mavs had an MVP caliber superstar leading the team to 50 wins season after season.  For them, it was just a matter of finding the right borderline-All-Star caliber role players to put next to him.  The Mavs had to suck for at least one season to draft Dirk. 

The Celtics don't have that player on the team right now who can lead them to 50+ wins for a decade.  They don't necessarily have to tank for a high draft pick to get that player, but they do need to compile young assets and probably at least a couple of decent draft picks before they can trade for such a player.  That will be much harder if they're trying to field a playoff team every season.
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Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2013, 12:55:40 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The problem with the Rondo / Billups comparison is that Billups got "Mr Big Shot" rep for a reason.  He was the MVP of those teams because he made the big shots, and he essentially carried those teams offensively when push came to shove.

Rondo is not an offensive leader in terms of scoring.  He cannot consistently lead the scoring of a team...he is a #2 piece.  He is Robin to Paul Pierce's Batman.  He NEEDS a dominant (i.e. ~20 PPG) scorer on the team in order to be successful.  The attention that a guy like Pierce or KG gets is what give Rondo the room to get to the basket, and the space to take those wide open mid range shots that he's been starting to hit with regularity lately.  Take away those big scorers and the defense turns all of its attention on Rondo, and he's not a guy who can score at will with that type of defensive attention on him.

  Billups was a better outside shooter than Rondo and a better clutch scorer but in his 3 trips to the finals he averaged 17-18 ppg. Rondo can give you that plus close to twice the rebounds and assists you'd get from Billups. When you're talking about how Rondo can't carry a team on offense keep in mind that Rondo scored or assisted a higher percentage of his points than any other player in the playoffs last year. Also, I'd say that Jeff Green looks like he'll be capable of giving you the 18 ppg or so you get from PP when he's the starting sf.


Billups needed two All-NBA caliber defenders in the frontcourt, including a Hall of Fame worthy multiple DPOY at center to get his team to the Finals. 

I agree with you that if the Celtics could put that kind of talent (multiple All-Stars) around Rondo, maybe the team could contend.  Of course, neither Green nor Rondo is likely to earn the nickname "Mr. Big Shot," so the team would need to get that clutch scorer who can take the big shots in big moments.


Also, it's not enough for Rondo to play like a star in the playoffs.  Teams that go far in the playoffs tend to have homecourt advantage from winning a lot of games in the regular season.  Unless Rondo can do what he does in the playoffs for 70+ games in the regular season, the Celtics aren't going to be winning 55+ games and getting a top seed with him as the main guy.
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Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2013, 03:38:00 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The problem with the Rondo / Billups comparison is that Billups got "Mr Big Shot" rep for a reason.  He was the MVP of those teams because he made the big shots, and he essentially carried those teams offensively when push came to shove.

Rondo is not an offensive leader in terms of scoring.  He cannot consistently lead the scoring of a team...he is a #2 piece.  He is Robin to Paul Pierce's Batman.  He NEEDS a dominant (i.e. ~20 PPG) scorer on the team in order to be successful.  The attention that a guy like Pierce or KG gets is what give Rondo the room to get to the basket, and the space to take those wide open mid range shots that he's been starting to hit with regularity lately.  Take away those big scorers and the defense turns all of its attention on Rondo, and he's not a guy who can score at will with that type of defensive attention on him.

  Billups was a better outside shooter than Rondo and a better clutch scorer but in his 3 trips to the finals he averaged 17-18 ppg. Rondo can give you that plus close to twice the rebounds and assists you'd get from Billups. When you're talking about how Rondo can't carry a team on offense keep in mind that Rondo scored or assisted a higher percentage of his points than any other player in the playoffs last year. Also, I'd say that Jeff Green looks like he'll be capable of giving you the 18 ppg or so you get from PP when he's the starting sf.


Billups needed two All-NBA caliber defenders in the frontcourt, including a Hall of Fame worthy multiple DPOY at center to get his team to the Finals. 

  Not every team that gets to the finals has to be exactly like a previous winner. Rondo took a team to the finals without an all-nba defender or a top 18 playoff scorer or top 18 playoff rebounder. I doubt that's been done more than a couple of times in the history of the league.

I agree with you that if the Celtics could put that kind of talent (multiple All-Stars) around Rondo, maybe the team could contend.  Of course, neither Green nor Rondo is likely to earn the nickname "Mr. Big Shot," so the team would need to get that clutch scorer who can take the big shots in big moments.

  Neither of them have really been in a position to take too many of those shots before. Rondo seemed like a pretty capable clutch scorer in the playoffs last year, maybe he'll build on that going forward.

Also, it's not enough for Rondo to play like a star in the playoffs.  Teams that go far in the playoffs tend to have homecourt advantage from winning a lot of games in the regular season.  Unless Rondo can do what he does in the playoffs for 70+ games in the regular season, the Celtics aren't going to be winning 55+ games and getting a top seed with him as the main guy.

  Rondo plays pretty well during the season. But teams go far in the playoffs because they're good, that's also the reason they do well during the season. I think the bulk of the teams that get to the finals would still do so if they were lower seeds.

Re: Rondo's Age
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2013, 04:28:41 PM »

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The only thing I am 100% sure will translate to his late 30s is his court vision. I don't think he'll still be all-star caliber when he gets older like KG and Pierce, though; I feel like he'd turn into a role player.

I could see him averaging 7 ppg, 10 apg, or something like that, around KG's age.


I've been saying for awhile at the later stages in his career he'll be a jason kidd of the past few years. Just replace the threes with layups and FT% with FG%
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