Did Rondo's absence exposed Avery's flaws?

[Boris Badenov]

Bradley is best as a bench player in limited minutes.

I disagree with this.  I think he can be a very good starter.  He brings so much defensively, and can at worst be hidden offensively.  The problem is, with the injuries they have, the C's are asking more from him offensively than he is capable of.

Basically, he can be a Bruce Bowen/Tony Allen type.

I think he can be a good starter, but I actually worry about the opposite problem the OP worries about.

I think Rondo and Bradley are a bad match, because neither is a plus scorer.

I think Rondo pairs much better with a great spot-up shooter (I won't name any examples, but one springs to mind).

And I think Bradley would be better paired with an offensive-minded PG like Rose or Westbrook.

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

[edwardjkasche]

I think he can be a good starter, but I actually worry about the opposite problem the OP worries about.

I think Rondo and Bradley are a bad match, because neither is a plus scorer.

I think Rondo pairs much better with a great spot-up shooter (I won't name any examples, but one springs to mind).

And I think Bradley would be better paired with an offensive-minded PG like Rose or Westbrook.

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

I agree.

As they are now, Rondo and Bradley can share the floor together in necessary instances, but shouldn't in what would amount to starters' minutes (35+mpg).

Rondo should start next to a SG with scoring ability.  Bradley should sub in at SG when we bring a more offensive-minded PG in (Terry is the closest we have at this point).

It is possible for Bradley to continue progressing on his spot-up game and corner-3s.  If he does this, then starting him next to Rondo wouldn't be such an issue.  He's still a young, developing player.

Remember, Bradley was coming along nicely off-the-ball before Rondo went down.  Bradley's offense is suffering now because he's being asked to facilitate the offense coming up the court, then swing quickly into his developing spot-up and corner-3 game.  It's an odd mix for the kid.

Then again, this would all be moot if Rondo actively searched for his own offense each and every game.  He can get to the basket as good as anyone and his jumper has grown leaps and bounds.  If Rondo is actively pursuing offense, then pairing him with Bradley isn't a liability, especially with Bradley slashing to the basket and spotting up in the corner.

[BballTim]

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

  This isn't close to true. Start with the Celts teams from the 80s, the Rockets, the Spurs. I didn't check too many other teams.

[lon3lytoaster]

It was wrong of anyone to think he'd be able to reproduce that hot streak of his from last season, but my lord does AB look terrible on offense. He has better skills than what he's been showing lately, too which makes it that much more frustrating.

[Boris Badenov]

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

  This isn't close to true. Start with the Celts teams from the 80s, the Rockets, the Spurs. I didn't check too many other teams.

It is. Notice that I said "good to great."

The Celtics teams had Tiny Archibald, DJ and Ainge. I will just assume you are not talking about Tiny. DJ was an All-Star and a Finals MVP who averaged 20ppg in the playoffs before arriving in Boston. Danny Ainge was a 20ppg scorer the year after he got traded away, and led the league in 3 pointers and was an All-Star in his last year with the C's. He was one of the best long-range shooters in the league for a five-year period.

The Spurs have had Parker and Ginobili, who are both far superior offensively to Rondo and Bradley. I think the 1998-1999 title team probably did lack a plus scorer in the backcourt, so you may be right there.

Houston had Cassell and Kenny Smith, both of whom were very good offensively. Smith was a very good outside shooter who was one of the most efficient shooters in the league during those title years - 4th in true shooting % in the league in 1994-95 and 8th in Ortg. Cassell was early in his career but proved to be a true offensive threat in the playoffs and hit several big shots.

[Yogi]

Rondo is one of the best offensive players in the league. 

1. Last I checked assists are worth at least two points.
2. He has one of the best field goal percentages for any guard
3. He is one of the best mid-range shooters for a guard in the NBA. 
4. He averages 13 ppg as the third option.  Could easily average 18-20 as the first option. 
5. Probably the best transition point guard in the league.

Avery Bradley is a good shooter.  He has the mechanics, he has the confidence.  He's what 21?  This is one of his first shooting slumps after double shoulder surgery!  Everyone goes through it.  Rose, Westbrook everyone had stretches when they were starting out where they missed shots.  Do people forget the awful shooting slumps Ray would get into? and he was a 15 year vet.  This is the life of a shooter.

Rondo and Bradley is the back court that will lead us to our next championship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mSKIq3siHHI

[BballTim]

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

  This isn't close to true. Start with the Celts teams from the 80s, the Rockets, the Spurs. I didn't check too many other teams.

It is. Notice that I said "good to great."

The Celtics teams had Tiny Archibald, DJ and Ainge. I will just assume you are not talking about Tiny. DJ was an All-Star and a Finals MVP who averaged 20ppg in the playoffs before arriving in Boston. Danny Ainge was a 20ppg scorer the year after he got traded away, and led the league in 3 pointers and was an All-Star in his last year with the C's. He was one of the best long-range shooters in the league for a five-year period.

The Spurs have had Parker and Ginobili, who are both far superior offensively to Rondo and Bradley. I think the 1998-1999 title team probably did lack a plus scorer in the backcourt, so you may be right there.

Houston had Cassell and Kenny Smith, both of whom were very good offensively. Smith was a very good outside shooter who was one of the most efficient shooters in the league during those title years - 4th in true shooting % in the league in 1994-95 and 8th in Ortg. Cassell was early in his career but proved to be a true offensive threat in the playoffs and hit several big shots.

  Sorry, I didn't realize that when you said "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer" you meant "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one player who was a good to great scorer at some point in their career, just not when their teams won the title".

  Tiny wasn't a good/great scorer when we won, neither was DJ. Danny only started on one of the title teams. Smith averaged just under 11 ppg in the playoffs in his title years, and Manu and Parker weren't on the first Spurs title team, whose best backcourt scorer was probably Avery Johnson. Rondo's clearly capable of 17 ppg in the playoffs, it's not that hard to find champions without better scorers than that in their backcourt.

[Boris Badenov]

Rondo is one of the best offensive players in the league. 

Avery Bradley is a good shooter. 

I agree that Rondo is an outstanding offensive player overall. But as a scoring guard, I think he's average. He's not a deep threat. He's shifty going to the hoop and has a pretty good mid-range game, but (just as one example) I think Jason Terry is a better scorer even at this point in his career.

[Boris Badenov]

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

  This isn't close to true. Start with the Celts teams from the 80s, the Rockets, the Spurs. I didn't check too many other teams.

It is. Notice that I said "good to great."

The Celtics teams had Tiny Archibald, DJ and Ainge. I will just assume you are not talking about Tiny. DJ was an All-Star and a Finals MVP who averaged 20ppg in the playoffs before arriving in Boston. Danny Ainge was a 20ppg scorer the year after he got traded away, and led the league in 3 pointers and was an All-Star in his last year with the C's. He was one of the best long-range shooters in the league for a five-year period.

The Spurs have had Parker and Ginobili, who are both far superior offensively to Rondo and Bradley. I think the 1998-1999 title team probably did lack a plus scorer in the backcourt, so you may be right there.

Houston had Cassell and Kenny Smith, both of whom were very good offensively. Smith was a very good outside shooter who was one of the most efficient shooters in the league during those title years - 4th in true shooting % in the league in 1994-95 and 8th in Ortg. Cassell was early in his career but proved to be a true offensive threat in the playoffs and hit several big shots.

  Sorry, I didn't realize that when you said "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer" you meant "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one player who was a good to great scorer at some point in their career, just not when their teams won the title".

  Tiny wasn't a good/great scorer when we won, neither was DJ. Danny only started on one of the title teams. Smith averaged just under 11 ppg in the playoffs in his title years, and Manu and Parker weren't on the first Spurs title team, whose best backcourt scorer was probably Avery Johnson. Rondo's clearly capable of 17 ppg in the playoffs, it's not that hard to find champions without better scorers than that in their backcourt.

Actually I was talking about those players in their championship years. I just mentioned Danny's and DJ's other years to illustrate that they could have scored a lot more if they weren't playing with Bird, McHale and Parish.

I'll take DJ, Ainge or Tiny in their championship years as scorers over Rondo. Smith, Cassell, Ginobili and Parker too. And like I said, I agree with you about the 98 Spurs.

I'm not saying I'd rather have those guys overall, just to be clear. I'm just saying that the scoring punch that Rondo and Bradley give you together - or lack thereof - is a problem, at least based on who they are right now.

[celtics2]

It definitely exposed his own flaws. But most of us knew of them.

[BballTim]

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

  This isn't close to true. Start with the Celts teams from the 80s, the Rockets, the Spurs. I didn't check too many other teams.

It is. Notice that I said "good to great."

The Celtics teams had Tiny Archibald, DJ and Ainge. I will just assume you are not talking about Tiny. DJ was an All-Star and a Finals MVP who averaged 20ppg in the playoffs before arriving in Boston. Danny Ainge was a 20ppg scorer the year after he got traded away, and led the league in 3 pointers and was an All-Star in his last year with the C's. He was one of the best long-range shooters in the league for a five-year period.

The Spurs have had Parker and Ginobili, who are both far superior offensively to Rondo and Bradley. I think the 1998-1999 title team probably did lack a plus scorer in the backcourt, so you may be right there.

Houston had Cassell and Kenny Smith, both of whom were very good offensively. Smith was a very good outside shooter who was one of the most efficient shooters in the league during those title years - 4th in true shooting % in the league in 1994-95 and 8th in Ortg. Cassell was early in his career but proved to be a true offensive threat in the playoffs and hit several big shots.

  Sorry, I didn't realize that when you said "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer" you meant "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one player who was a good to great scorer at some point in their career, just not when their teams won the title".

  Tiny wasn't a good/great scorer when we won, neither was DJ. Danny only started on one of the title teams. Smith averaged just under 11 ppg in the playoffs in his title years, and Manu and Parker weren't on the first Spurs title team, whose best backcourt scorer was probably Avery Johnson. Rondo's clearly capable of 17 ppg in the playoffs, it's not that hard to find champions without better scorers than that in their backcourt.

Actually I was talking about those players in their championship years. I just mentioned Danny's and DJ's other years to illustrate that they could have scored a lot more if they weren't playing with Bird, McHale and Parish.

  Obviously Rondo would score more if he wasn't on the same team with PP/KG/RA just like those guys. He's certainly shown the ability to score when he sets his mind to it. It's true that you won't get a ton of points out of a Rondo/Bradley backcourt, but you'll get as many or more points than you got from many of the backcourts that I mentioned.

  Edit: to put a point on what I'm saying, if Bradley had been healthy last year we would have gone into the playoffs with one of the better starting guard combinations out there. Manu and Harden coming off the bench had a lot to do with that, but it's true nonetheless.

[Boris Badenov]

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

  This isn't close to true. Start with the Celts teams from the 80s, the Rockets, the Spurs. I didn't check too many other teams.

It is. Notice that I said "good to great."

The Celtics teams had Tiny Archibald, DJ and Ainge. I will just assume you are not talking about Tiny. DJ was an All-Star and a Finals MVP who averaged 20ppg in the playoffs before arriving in Boston. Danny Ainge was a 20ppg scorer the year after he got traded away, and led the league in 3 pointers and was an All-Star in his last year with the C's. He was one of the best long-range shooters in the league for a five-year period.

The Spurs have had Parker and Ginobili, who are both far superior offensively to Rondo and Bradley. I think the 1998-1999 title team probably did lack a plus scorer in the backcourt, so you may be right there.

Houston had Cassell and Kenny Smith, both of whom were very good offensively. Smith was a very good outside shooter who was one of the most efficient shooters in the league during those title years - 4th in true shooting % in the league in 1994-95 and 8th in Ortg. Cassell was early in his career but proved to be a true offensive threat in the playoffs and hit several big shots.

  Sorry, I didn't realize that when you said "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer" you meant "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one player who was a good to great scorer at some point in their career, just not when their teams won the title".

  Tiny wasn't a good/great scorer when we won, neither was DJ. Danny only started on one of the title teams. Smith averaged just under 11 ppg in the playoffs in his title years, and Manu and Parker weren't on the first Spurs title team, whose best backcourt scorer was probably Avery Johnson. Rondo's clearly capable of 17 ppg in the playoffs, it's not that hard to find champions without better scorers than that in their backcourt.

Actually I was talking about those players in their championship years. I just mentioned Danny's and DJ's other years to illustrate that they could have scored a lot more if they weren't playing with Bird, McHale and Parish.

  Obviously Rondo would score more if he wasn't on the same team with PP/KG/RA just like those guys. He's certainly shown the ability to score when he sets his mind to it. It's true that you won't get a ton of points out of a Rondo/Bradley backcourt, but you'll get as many or more points than you got from many of the backcourts that I mentioned.

Starting in 1981 here is a list of every champion's primary backcourt scorer (or scorers if the best is ambiguous):

Archibald
Magic/Wilkes
Andrew Toney
DJ
Magic/Byron
DJ/Danny
Dumars/Isaiah
Jordan
Cassell/Smith
Avery Johnson
Kobe
Parker/Ginobili
Billups/Hamilton
Wade
Ray Allen
Jason Terry

This covers 33 different championship teams.

In how many of those backcourts would Rondo have been the best scorer? I count one clear "yes" (AJ), a few that might be debatable (the ones you picked out, though I'd disagree even there) and 27 clear "no."

[Yogi]

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

  This isn't close to true. Start with the Celts teams from the 80s, the Rockets, the Spurs. I didn't check too many other teams.

It is. Notice that I said "good to great."

The Celtics teams had Tiny Archibald, DJ and Ainge. I will just assume you are not talking about Tiny. DJ was an All-Star and a Finals MVP who averaged 20ppg in the playoffs before arriving in Boston. Danny Ainge was a 20ppg scorer the year after he got traded away, and led the league in 3 pointers and was an All-Star in his last year with the C's. He was one of the best long-range shooters in the league for a five-year period.

The Spurs have had Parker and Ginobili, who are both far superior offensively to Rondo and Bradley. I think the 1998-1999 title team probably did lack a plus scorer in the backcourt, so you may be right there.

Houston had Cassell and Kenny Smith, both of whom were very good offensively. Smith was a very good outside shooter who was one of the most efficient shooters in the league during those title years - 4th in true shooting % in the league in 1994-95 and 8th in Ortg. Cassell was early in his career but proved to be a true offensive threat in the playoffs and hit several big shots.

  Sorry, I didn't realize that when you said "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer" you meant "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one player who was a good to great scorer at some point in their career, just not when their teams won the title".

  Tiny wasn't a good/great scorer when we won, neither was DJ. Danny only started on one of the title teams. Smith averaged just under 11 ppg in the playoffs in his title years, and Manu and Parker weren't on the first Spurs title team, whose best backcourt scorer was probably Avery Johnson. Rondo's clearly capable of 17 ppg in the playoffs, it's not that hard to find champions without better scorers than that in their backcourt.

Actually I was talking about those players in their championship years. I just mentioned Danny's and DJ's other years to illustrate that they could have scored a lot more if they weren't playing with Bird, McHale and Parish.

  Obviously Rondo would score more if he wasn't on the same team with PP/KG/RA just like those guys. He's certainly shown the ability to score when he sets his mind to it. It's true that you won't get a ton of points out of a Rondo/Bradley backcourt, but you'll get as many or more points than you got from many of the backcourts that I mentioned.

Starting in 1981 here is a list of every champion's primary backcourt scorer (or scorers if the best is ambiguous):

Archibald
Magic/Wilkes
Andrew Toney
DJ
Magic/Byron
DJ/Danny
Dumars/Isaiah
Jordan
Cassell/Smith
Avery Johnson
Kobe
Parker/Ginobili
Billups/Hamilton
Wade
Ray Allen
Jason Terry

This covers 33 different championship teams.

In how many of those backcourts would Rondo have been the best scorer? I count one clear "yes" (AJ), a few that might be debatable (the ones you picked out, though I'd disagree even there) and 27 clear "no."

Rondo's all around playoff numbers (not just scoring) especially last year are as good or better than most of those guys.  If you had to pick a guy to be your starting guard (when they won the championship) how many of those guys would you pick ahead of Rondo now? (For me it's just Jordan, Magic and Kobe, possibly Wade)  Also Jason Terry when he won the championship averaged the same number of points as Rondo last year but was MUCH worse at assists, rebounding, steals, defense etc.  Chauncey Billups averaged less ppg when he won the championship than Rondo did last year, as did Ray Allen.  While Wade averaged 5 more points than Rondo last year, Rondo had more rebounds, steals and way more assists and was clearly the best player in the series along with Lebron.

[Boris Badenov]

No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer. Neither Rondo nor Bradley fits that profile right now.

  This isn't close to true. Start with the Celts teams from the 80s, the Rockets, the Spurs. I didn't check too many other teams.

It is. Notice that I said "good to great."

The Celtics teams had Tiny Archibald, DJ and Ainge. I will just assume you are not talking about Tiny. DJ was an All-Star and a Finals MVP who averaged 20ppg in the playoffs before arriving in Boston. Danny Ainge was a 20ppg scorer the year after he got traded away, and led the league in 3 pointers and was an All-Star in his last year with the C's. He was one of the best long-range shooters in the league for a five-year period.

The Spurs have had Parker and Ginobili, who are both far superior offensively to Rondo and Bradley. I think the 1998-1999 title team probably did lack a plus scorer in the backcourt, so you may be right there.

Houston had Cassell and Kenny Smith, both of whom were very good offensively. Smith was a very good outside shooter who was one of the most efficient shooters in the league during those title years - 4th in true shooting % in the league in 1994-95 and 8th in Ortg. Cassell was early in his career but proved to be a true offensive threat in the playoffs and hit several big shots.

  Sorry, I didn't realize that when you said "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one good to great scorer" you meant "No championship team in the modern era has won with a backcourt that lacked at least one player who was a good to great scorer at some point in their career, just not when their teams won the title".

  Tiny wasn't a good/great scorer when we won, neither was DJ. Danny only started on one of the title teams. Smith averaged just under 11 ppg in the playoffs in his title years, and Manu and Parker weren't on the first Spurs title team, whose best backcourt scorer was probably Avery Johnson. Rondo's clearly capable of 17 ppg in the playoffs, it's not that hard to find champions without better scorers than that in their backcourt.

Actually I was talking about those players in their championship years. I just mentioned Danny's and DJ's other years to illustrate that they could have scored a lot more if they weren't playing with Bird, McHale and Parish.

  Obviously Rondo would score more if he wasn't on the same team with PP/KG/RA just like those guys. He's certainly shown the ability to score when he sets his mind to it. It's true that you won't get a ton of points out of a Rondo/Bradley backcourt, but you'll get as many or more points than you got from many of the backcourts that I mentioned.

Starting in 1981 here is a list of every champion's primary backcourt scorer (or scorers if the best is ambiguous):

Archibald
Magic/Wilkes
Andrew Toney
DJ
Magic/Byron
DJ/Danny
Dumars/Isaiah
Jordan
Cassell/Smith
Avery Johnson
Kobe
Parker/Ginobili
Billups/Hamilton
Wade
Ray Allen
Jason Terry

This covers 33 different championship teams.

In how many of those backcourts would Rondo have been the best scorer? I count one clear "yes" (AJ), a few that might be debatable (the ones you picked out, though I'd disagree even there) and 27 clear "no."

Rondo's all around playoff numbers (not just scoring) especially last year are as good or better than most of those guys.  If you had to pick a guy to be your starting guard (when they won the championship) how many of those guys would you pick ahead of Rondo now? (For me it's just Jordan, Magic and Kobe, possibly Wade)  Also Jason Terry when he won the championship averaged the same number of points as Rondo last year but was MUCH worse at assists, rebounding, steals, defense etc.  Chauncey Billups averaged less ppg when he won the championship than Rondo did last year, as did Ray Allen.

I'm not disagreeing about overall ability, I said that above. But again, it's how his skills as a scorer fit when you also have Bradley out there that's the issue. I'd take Rondo over many of the guys above - but I wouldn't want him to be paired with Bradley. And I love Bradley too - but I think he might fit better with a more scoring-oriented PG

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Again, the flaws we see have been known of AB from year 1. Does AB miss RR, yes... all of them do, he makes it easier for most of them.

But like I said before, he misses a PG! If we had a solid REAL PG we would be better! AB would be better if he didn't have to be the PG. RR is great, NO QUESTION... but the team is missing a PG, RR is a great bonus, we would be fine with anyone who was a natural PG, someone who could do what Doc is forcing AB and others to try and do! We would be just fine with someone like Dragic and he's not anywhere near RR's level.

Edit: We'd even be better if we had Sessions!

I can't wait til RR is healthy so we won't have to talk about it anymore. I miss him!