Paul and Jet's TO's

[Hardcore Fan]

Is this driving anyone else crazy lately?

[pearljammer10]

In paul's last 5 games, 4 played he is averaging 2.8 per game...His season average is 2.7.

Jet is up to 2.2 which still isnt all that bad.

So, no.

[jgod213]

Terry is hovering around 3 TO's per game in his last 4.  He had a very nice stat line in that dismantling of Toronto, but his decision making has been spotty lately. 

Tommy was all over one play in particular where Terry was either intent on passing or expecting contact when he elevated and then took the shot almost as a last resort.  Tommy was saying that he just needs to shoot the ball with confidence in those situations, and i think he's absolutely right.

[beklog]

i'm more concerned about PP's FT shots.. he's been missing lately..

last season he was 85.2%
now he's 78.9

[azzenfrost]

No lift.

[CelticConcourse]

Handling the ball more naturally leads to more TOs.

His Free Throws are horrendous relative to his history

[StartOrien]

I think the turnovers are a case of the eye vs. stats.

They might not turn the ball over all that much, but the turnovers they do make are REALLY ugly so they have a tendency to stand out.

[apc]

What bothers me most with PP turnovers is that most of the time it looks like luck of effort or being to nonchalant.

[Snakehead]

I think the turnovers are a case of the eye vs. stats.

They might not turn the ball over all that much, but the turnovers they do make are REALLY ugly so they have a tendency to stand out.

Yeah basically.

Both try to do a lot sometimes which can lead to amazing plays and some where you're just shaking your head.

Good with the bad.

[Fafnir]

I think the turnovers are a case of the eye vs. stats.

They might not turn the ball over all that much, but the turnovers they do make are REALLY ugly so they have a tendency to stand out.

Yeah Paul's always been somewhat turnover prone, but having him handle so much near halfcourt means he's getting more of the "Oh my what are you doing" ones.

[mmmmm]

I think the turnovers are a case of the eye vs. stats.

They might not turn the ball over all that much, but the turnovers they do make are REALLY ugly so they have a tendency to stand out.

Yeah Paul's always been somewhat turnover prone, but having him handle so much near halfcourt means he's getting more of the "Oh my what are you doing" ones.

I think one needs to say 'compared to ______' with that.

Pierce' TO rates are not really high when you compare him to other full time primary scoring small forwards.   Especially when you factor in his assist rates (not all small forwards handle the ball near as much).

Among Small Forwards who have played at least 30 games and at least 20 mpg, the league average TOR is 10.14 (hoopdata.com).   Pierce' TOR is barely above that at 11.10 and is right in the middle of the rankings.  Notably of all such players ranked with a lower TOR rate than Pierce, only two have as high of an Assist Rate (Lebron and Chandler Parsons) as Pierce.  Most have a much, much lower assist rate.  The average assist rate for this group of players is 14.48 while Pierce' is 18.77.

Of the 5 fulltime SFs who have higher assist rates than Pierce, 3 have higher TO rates than he does.  And Parsons, at 10.85 is essentially identical.   Lebron is the only one with a notably low TOR -- just 9.32.  But Lebron almost NEVER gets called for either traveling or charging - both of which count as TOs, so I don't know how valid we can consider that stat for him.

So Pierce' TO rate is not at all unreasonable when compared to his peers in the NBA this season.  It also is basically about the same as it has been for himself over the course of his HoF career.

His TO rates only look high compared to other Celtics who, of course, don't handle it near as much.

[kgainez]

In paul's last 5 games, 4 played he is averaging 2.8 per game...His season average is 2.7.

Jet is up to 2.2 which still isnt all that bad.

So, no.

i hate this argument that it's near their averages
but if you watch the game, these are turn overs at a point in time that could change the momentum, that could break a run, that could give us a lead.

yes. it's very frustrating to WATCH the turn overs IN GAME

Jason wants to pass like Rondo so bad. I have no clue what it is. But if he would just keep it simple...things would be so pleasant

[albas89]

One third of Paul's TO's are shuffling/traveling violations on his first step, which is kinda ridiculous imo. For the last 2 years or so, Pierce has been getting the rookie treatment by the refs because he has a reputation as a flopper. So they're gonna call him that every time, whereas the same doesn't go for LeBron or KD for example.

Having said that, I think both Pierce and Terry are often careless with the ball, but their TO's would be way down if they weren't asked to do so much. Especially Pierce, he plays the pick'n'pop perfectly, so it doesn't drive me crazy if he turns it over 1-2 times per game, when he runs the play as great as you can ask of your team's SF.

[Boris Badenov]

Terry's TO % is 9.6, which is middle of the pack overall for SGs. I think it's a bit on the high side considering that he is more of a catch and shoot guy, and those guys tend to turn the ball over less (Nick Young, Mike Miller and Josh Smith are all in the top 10 in terms of lowest rate, for example).

Pierce's is 11.1%, but that is actually pretty good considering that he's both a high-usage guy and a high-assist guy for his position (esp. with Rondo out). He's roughly the equal of KD, and a significant step worse than Lebron and Carmelo.

Of course this doesn't take into account the type of turnover - which for me isn't so much whether it's "ugly" but whether it's the kind that leads to a fast break and easy basket for the other team. My gut says that Terry's TOs are more often like that, and Pierce's less so, but I have no data to back that up.

[CelticConcourse]

Live-ball turnovers are definitely the worst. Like Doc says, it's better to throw it into the third row than to the other team. Transition points for opponent = bad