2012 bench vs 2013 bench

[winsomme]

To me this is the reason for the Cs current struggles...not Rondo not being a leader, not KG and Pierce suddenly aged out of the game, not Doc being a terrible coach, etc...

The biggest difference between last year's team and this year's is the bench. And this is very surprising to me considering the talent level of the bench this year. We added three players that are essentially starters in the league and subtracted journeymen players.

Added

Terry
Barbosa
Lee
Green
Sully
Milicic
Wilcox
Collins

Subtracted

Dooling
Pavlovic
Pietrus
Daniels
Hollins
Stiemsma

On paper this year's bench should be better, but alas "on paper" doesn't always translate to reality. So now the question is why was last year's bench better. Part of the reason is certainly the loss of Ray making AB a starter, but of the players lost and added just from the bench, last year's bunch functioned better.

For me, the reason last year's less talented bunch worked better was their ability to play better defense. Pietrus, Daniels, and Pavlovic were all MUCH better perimeter defenders, and Stiemsma and Hollins, while not highly skilled, did patrol the paint better than Collins, Wilcox, Sully, etc...

Our bench needs to fit the "Threes and D" plan. So my hopes, as Danny figures out how to reconfigure this roster, are that he doesn't do an overhaul (ie trade Rondo or Pierce) and focuses on what has worked in the past (ie bring in guys who play with high intensity and are strong enough to have an impact on D).

I would really like to see Danny move Courtney Lee and Jeff Green. While I do think these guys are skilled, high character players, they simply are not working out. Lee is a lot smaller than I realized and even though he plays with a lot of energy, inferior players go right past him of defense (like Salmons last night). And Green, again there is a ton to like about him, just can't seem to get it going fast enough consistently coming off the bench. Plus, his perimeter defense is also suspect....

If we need to add in prospects like Sully and Melo to get the right pieces then I would say go for it, but I would like to at least keep AB and Sully if we can. But at the end of the day, when we can come within one win of another Finals appearance last year with a no name bench, it seems to me that this years bench should be the focus of changes to get this team back on track. Rondo, PP, and KG are not the problem.

[ScottHow]

After seeing this team, I'm not willing to let go of Bradley, Sully, or and young player for the future to help the bench this year.

If Ainge can trade Green, Lee, Terry attempting to change the bench or improve it, that's fine.

I'm just not willing to throw in a young player with potential to get a win now guy and continue to lose by 18.

[MBunge]

I think what we're talking about is one of the reasons Boston's bench play has been pretty bad since the championship year.  Doc doesn't seem to really want a bench.  He wants 2 or 3 guys he can play situationally, just plug 'em in here and there to fill certain roles.  I mean, that's why Tony Allen is no longer here, isn't it?  He went to Memphis so he could do something besides sit for all of the 4th quarter until Doc puts him in to defend the last play.

Mike

[MBunge]

I was just inspired to compare Marquis and Green and found something that may get at the heart of everything wrong with the team this season and everything that's been wrong with the team when they've played so poorly for stretches in the past few seasons.

Know how many shots per minute Marquis is averaging with the Bucks this year?  2.9.  And that's playing with noted chuckers Jennings and Ellis.

Know how many shots per minute Green is averaging with Boston?  2.6.  And that's playing with the league's leading assist guy.

There are simply systemic things wrong with this team.  Or to be more precise, things are going wrong because there have been little to no adjustments made to the system that won a title, even though the personnel has changed dramatically.

Think Phil would have ever won championships in LA if he'd insisted on the triangle being played exactly the same way it was with Jordan and Pippen?

Mike

[winsomme]

After seeing this team, I'm not willing to let go of Bradley, Sully, or and young player for the future to help the bench this year.

If Ainge can trade Green, Lee, Terry attempting to change the bench or improve it, that's fine.

I'm just not willing to throw in a young player with potential to get a win now guy and continue to lose by 18.

Well the idea of revamping the bench would be to NOT continue to lose by 18. Again, we were 1 win away from the Finals last year and the biggest difference this year is the bench. The three main additions were Green, Lee, and Terry and none of these guys plays the kind of defense we need to play Celtics basketball. Last night's game was a perfect example. SAC had middle of the road players going wherever and doing whatever they wanted to. I'm really frustrated Danny didn't at least bring back one of the SFs we had last year...Pav, Pietrus, and Daniels were all decent perimeter defenders and they would come in very handy right now...

[Who]

I'm really frustrated Danny didn't at least bring back one of the SFs we had last year...Pav, Pietrus, and Daniels were all decent perimeter defenders and they would come in very handy right now...

Yeah, one of those guys would have been really nice to have on the end of the bench because Doc clearly doesn't trust Kris Joseph to help the team.

Since the summer, I have wanted Danny to waive Joseph and use that roster spot on a veteran wing that Doc can call upon where necessary. This team had too many projects and question marks to be using (wasting) a roster on K.Joseph.

A wing with legitimate size behind Pierce and Green. The backcourt is full of small undersized guards who don't provide the type of options Boston needs behind Pierce/Green. That third wing would've been a useful piece.

It's a minor detail but an error all the same. An irritating one at that.

[Who]

The bench isn't giving the type of support needed. I would like to make changes to the bench. 

• Jason Terry clearly isn't working out. He doesn't have the role here that he needs to be the Jason Terry of past years. His impact is too limited now. I think Danny is best off moving him for a different piece.
• They obviously need some rim-protection off the bench. A backup center. If they could find a way to get a high level one like Okafor, that would be great. I am happy enough with just Chris Andersen as an upgrade over their current options.
• Jeff Green is a nice player but not dependable enough. I can't help but wonder if the team would be better off with a less gifted player (like Trevor Ariza or a Jared Dudley) who showed more hustle and effort there. Who gave the team a defensive lift on the perimeter. Especially with Pierce struggling more defensively this year.

[BudweiserCeltic]

After seeing this team, I'm not willing to let go of Bradley, Sully, or and young player for the future to help the bench this year.

If Ainge can trade Green, Lee, Terry attempting to change the bench or improve it, that's fine.

I'm just not willing to throw in a young player with potential to get a win now guy and continue to lose by 18.

Well the idea of revamping the bench would be to NOT continue to lose by 18. Again, we were 1 win away from the Finals last year and the biggest difference this year is the bench. The three main additions were Green, Lee, and Terry and none of these guys plays the kind of defense we need to play Celtics basketball. Last night's game was a perfect example. SAC had middle of the road players going wherever and doing whatever they wanted to. I'm really frustrated Danny didn't at least bring back one of the SFs we had last year...Pav, Pietrus, and Daniels were all decent perimeter defenders and they would come in very handy right now...

The biggest difference is Ray and Bradley are not here... it's not the bench.

Pietrus was hobbled through most of the year. Daniels barely played for us, and when he did he was quite bad last year except for a very few instances. Dooling was a bad back-up PG, but did a solid job defensively and hit some shots from the perimeter. He missed plenty of games though.

Our problems this year is not the bench vs. last year's bench.

Bass is vastly underplaying. Pierce is about the same, though not as efficient. Both playing poorer defense. Kevin Garnett is playing better, though at times a bit slower on rotations, but nothing of significance. That said, he's playing less minutes.

[BudweiserCeltic]

The bench isn't giving the type of support needed. I would like to make changes to the bench. 

• Jason Terry clearly isn't working out. He doesn't have the role here that he needs to be the Jason Terry of past years. His impact is too limited now. I think Danny is best off moving him for a different piece.
• They obviously need some rim-protection off the bench. A backup center.
• Jeff Green is a nice player but not dependable enough. I can't help but wonder if the team would be better off with a less gifted player (like Trevor Ariza) who showed more hustle and effort there. Who gave the team a defensive lift on the perimeter. Especially with Pierce struggling more defensively this year.

I'm going to hold off on Terry until we actually have him playing the role he was brought here to do... which we'll see when Bradley returns hopefully. For the most part, when he's playing alongside Lee, they have looked good together. So we'll see.

[Who]

The bench isn't giving the type of support needed. I would like to make changes to the bench. 

• Jason Terry clearly isn't working out. He doesn't have the role here that he needs to be the Jason Terry of past years. His impact is too limited now. I think Danny is best off moving him for a different piece.
• They obviously need some rim-protection off the bench. A backup center.
• Jeff Green is a nice player but not dependable enough. I can't help but wonder if the team would be better off with a less gifted player (like Trevor Ariza) who showed more hustle and effort there. Who gave the team a defensive lift on the perimeter. Especially with Pierce struggling more defensively this year.

I'm going to hold off on Terry until we actually have him playing the role he was brought here to do... which we'll see when Bradley returns hopefully. For the most part, when he's playing alongside Lee, they have looked good together. So we'll see.

I am finished with Terry. I am ready to move on.

I agree that Terry has looked good with Lee but he hasn't looked good alongside Rondo. Rondo is going to be playing 40+ minutes in the playoffs. I just can't see it coming together for Terry here. He doesn't have enough of the ball when Rondo is out there. There won't be enough opportunities for Terry to impact the game here like he is capable of doing.

I just can't see it happening. I think this situation is all it is going to be.

[BudweiserCeltic]

The bench isn't giving the type of support needed. I would like to make changes to the bench. 

• Jason Terry clearly isn't working out. He doesn't have the role here that he needs to be the Jason Terry of past years. His impact is too limited now. I think Danny is best off moving him for a different piece.
• They obviously need some rim-protection off the bench. A backup center.
• Jeff Green is a nice player but not dependable enough. I can't help but wonder if the team would be better off with a less gifted player (like Trevor Ariza) who showed more hustle and effort there. Who gave the team a defensive lift on the perimeter. Especially with Pierce struggling more defensively this year.

I'm going to hold off on Terry until we actually have him playing the role he was brought here to do... which we'll see when Bradley returns hopefully. For the most part, when he's playing alongside Lee, they have looked good together. So we'll see.

I am finished with Terry. I am ready to move on.

I agree that Terry has looked good with Lee but he hasn't looked good alongside Rondo. Rondo is going to be playing 40+ minutes in the playoffs. I just can't see it coming together for Terry here. He doesn't have enough of the ball when Rondo is out there. There won't be enough opportunities for Terry to impact the game here like he is capable of doing.

I just can't see it happening. I think this situation is all it is going to be.

Yep, never liked the combination with him and Rondo. I have my hopes up that when Bradley comes up, Rondo's minutes will be more limited, so that's partly why I want to see how it'll all shake-up.

But it is a big concern that him and Rondo don't look good together. I also think that the defensive assignments they have when they play together are not adequate. For the most part, I'd rather Rondo play the SG and Terry defend the PG.

Edit:

From a position standpoint on who my preffered pieces to move are:

Guards: Terry and Barbosa
SF: Joseph
PF: Bass by a good margin, then Wilcox or Sully.
C: Collins and Melo

If we can come up with decent value, or at least find pieces that fit better defensively by using any of the above, I'd be quite ecstatic.

[ScottHow]

After seeing this team, I'm not willing to let go of Bradley, Sully, or and young player for the future to help the bench this year.

If Ainge can trade Green, Lee, Terry attempting to change the bench or improve it, that's fine.

I'm just not willing to throw in a young player with potential to get a win now guy and continue to lose by 18.

Well the idea of revamping the bench would be to NOT continue to lose by 18. Again, we were 1 win away from the Finals last year and the biggest difference this year is the bench. The three main additions were Green, Lee, and Terry and none of these guys plays the kind of defense we need to play Celtics basketball. Last night's game was a perfect example. SAC had middle of the road players going wherever and doing whatever they wanted to. I'm really frustrated Danny didn't at least bring back one of the SFs we had last year...Pav, Pietrus, and Daniels were all decent perimeter defenders and they would come in very handy right now...

We were one win away from the Finals last year, but I believe the biggest difference is age/decline.

I just don't think a Daniels/Pavlovic/Hollins type is the differnce in our 20+ point losses. It's the decline of Pierce, Terry, KG's minutes.

[winsomme]

After seeing this team, I'm not willing to let go of Bradley, Sully, or and young player for the future to help the bench this year.

If Ainge can trade Green, Lee, Terry attempting to change the bench or improve it, that's fine.

I'm just not willing to throw in a young player with potential to get a win now guy and continue to lose by 18.

Well the idea of revamping the bench would be to NOT continue to lose by 18. Again, we were 1 win away from the Finals last year and the biggest difference this year is the bench. The three main additions were Green, Lee, and Terry and none of these guys plays the kind of defense we need to play Celtics basketball. Last night's game was a perfect example. SAC had middle of the road players going wherever and doing whatever they wanted to. I'm really frustrated Danny didn't at least bring back one of the SFs we had last year...Pav, Pietrus, and Daniels were all decent perimeter defenders and they would come in very handy right now...

The biggest difference is Ray and Bradley are not here... it's not the bench.

Pietrus was hobbled through most of the year. Daniels barely played for us, and when he did he was quite bad last year except for a very few instances. Dooling was a bad back-up PG, but did a solid job defensively and hit some shots from the perimeter. He missed plenty of games though.

Our problems this year is not the bench vs. last year's bench.

Bass is vastly underplaying. Pierce is about the same, though not as efficient. Both playing poorer defense. Kevin Garnett is playing better, though at times a bit slower on rotations, but nothing of significance. That said, he's playing less minutes.

It's the cumulative effect. Whether you consider Ray or AB the bench player last year, the replacement for this year (most appropriately Lee) is a dropoff.

And again, Dooling, Pietrus, and Stiemsma were not world beaters, but they were all better defensively than the guy that replaced them. Considered one at a time, there's not a huge dropoff, but cumulatively that is a big dropoff.

As for Bass, think about how his role has changed this year. That lineup with him and Sully as  the bigs is just plain awful. I think if we had a legit backup big we would see positive changes from him. I even think AB returning to the starting lineup will show Bass returning somewhat to last year's form.

If AB is anywhere near last year's form, the starting lineup should start to function better and we shouldn't have big early deficits, but once the bench starts coming in that when I expect to still have struggles..

[winsomme]

After seeing this team, I'm not willing to let go of Bradley, Sully, or and young player for the future to help the bench this year.

If Ainge can trade Green, Lee, Terry attempting to change the bench or improve it, that's fine.

I'm just not willing to throw in a young player with potential to get a win now guy and continue to lose by 18.

Well the idea of revamping the bench would be to NOT continue to lose by 18. Again, we were 1 win away from the Finals last year and the biggest difference this year is the bench. The three main additions were Green, Lee, and Terry and none of these guys plays the kind of defense we need to play Celtics basketball. Last night's game was a perfect example. SAC had middle of the road players going wherever and doing whatever they wanted to. I'm really frustrated Danny didn't at least bring back one of the SFs we had last year...Pav, Pietrus, and Daniels were all decent perimeter defenders and they would come in very handy right now...

We were one win away from the Finals last year, but I believe the biggest difference is age/decline.

I just don't think a Daniels/Pavlovic/Hollins type is the differnce in our 20+ point losses. It's the decline of Pierce, Terry, KG's minutes.

I'm really not seeing the age thing with Pierce. What I am seeing is frustration at the dysfunction that is happening on the court. It's demoralizing to see SACs guards doing whatever they want, and I really don't think that is Pierce's doing.

Terry at least is knocking down shots. His defense is very suspect, but I could still see him working out in more of a Eddie House role where all you are really looking for from him is energy and threes...Lee and Green, on the other hand, are very troubling. I just think Lee is too small to be the kind of perimeter defender we need. Even on hobbled knees, think of how much better Pietrus was at guarding SG/SF types. And Green I get so psyched about some times, but then there are those long stretches where you don't even know he's out there playing...Maybe if Danny could land a guy like Varejao, Green could really focus on offense which is his strength, but right now we NEED him to be a better defender and I just don't see how that happens..

[Tr1boy]

The bench isn't giving the type of support needed. I would like to make changes to the bench. 

• Jason Terry clearly isn't working out. He doesn't have the role here that he needs to be the Jason Terry of past years. His impact is too limited now. I think Danny is best off moving him for a different piece.
• They obviously need some rim-protection off the bench. A backup center. If they could find a way to get a high level one like Okafor, that would be great. I am happy enough with just Chris Andersen as an upgrade over their current options.
• Jeff Green is a nice player but not dependable enough. I can't help but wonder if the team would be better off with a less gifted player (like Trevor Ariza or a Jared Dudley) who showed more hustle and effort there. Who gave the team a defensive lift on the perimeter. Especially with Pierce struggling more defensively this year.

you can't trade terry, he has a tattoo of a lep holding the trophy.