doc: "ray wanted the ball more, and wanted more pick+roll plays for him"

[Interceptor]

Sorry your wrong its always been about Docs coaching. Go back and read some of the articles pre 07/08

This is 2012. Doc Rivers has improved rather significantly as a coach in the last four years or so, and he'll be the first to admit it.

[FatjohnReturns]

can

Sorry your wrong its always been about Docs coaching. Go back and read some of the articles pre 07/08

This is 2012. Doc Rivers has improved rather significantly as a coach in the last four years or so, and he'll be the first to admit it.

cant agree with "Doc Rivers has improved rather significantly"

If you read a few articles from pre 07/08 seems to me its the same problems we have had all along stagnant offense, questionable rotations.

I give Doc credit for a nice playoff run last year. I give Doc credit for being a good leader.

[BballTim]

After all the dust settles this season a two issues are going to be obvious. Ray is not washed up. This next season may be his best in a long time. Secondly us watching Ray have a great season for another team is going to bring questions about Docs proficiency executing a offense. Why has our offense has been so bad for so long?

  Ray's getting close to washed up. That doesn't mean that he won't do well in Miami, where he'll have a much smaller and simpler role in the offense. If he has a great season it won't bring into question Doc's coaching, it will demonstrate how much easier it is to get open looks when you're playing with Wade and James.

You have been a long time proponent of Rondo being the top point guard in the league. How do you figure its easier to get open looks playing with James and Wade than playing with Rondo,Pierce,Garnett?

  LeBron commands significantly more attention from a defense than any of our players. In Boston Ray had to work to get open. In Miami he'll stand in a spot and wait for his player to help out on Wade or James. That's not really a function of passing or point guard play.

Sorry your wrong its always been about Docs coaching. Go back and read some of the articles pre 07/08

  You mean when some of his top rotation players were people like West, Gomes and Green? Hint: it wasn't necessarily the coaching. It's also true that he was coach of the year with the Magic.

[Interceptor]

cant agree with "Doc Rivers has improved rather significantly"

If you read a few articles from pre 07/08 seems to me its the same problems we have had all along stagnant offense, questionable rotations.

I give Doc credit for a nice playoff run last year. I give Doc credit for being a good leader.

What happened this past season was nothing short of ninja magic, what Doc was able to do with that injury-depleted roster. I have no idea how you can square 2011-12 with the idea that Doc is some sort of bumbling fool that can't put together a decent offense. Many of our offensive problems were limitations of what was available... I think that we'll benefit greatly from finally having guys like Terry and Green on our bench.

I absolutely remember the old school articles about Doc, most specifically the ones where Simmons was calling for his head. He's since changed his mind, and upgraded him to COY.

[FatjohnReturns]

After all the dust settles this season a two issues are going to be obvious. Ray is not washed up. This next season may be his best in a long time. Secondly us watching Ray have a great season for another team is going to bring questions about Docs proficiency executing a offense. Why has our offense has been so bad for so long?

  Ray's getting close to washed up. That doesn't mean that he won't do well in Miami, where he'll have a much smaller and simpler role in the offense. If he has a great season it won't bring into question Doc's coaching, it will demonstrate how much easier it is to get open looks when you're playing with Wade and James.

You have been a long time proponent of Rondo being the top point guard in the league. How do you figure its easier to get open looks playing with James and Wade than playing with Rondo,Pierce,Garnett?

  LeBron commands significantly more attention from a defense than any of our players. In Boston Ray had to work to get open. In Miami he'll stand in a spot and wait for his player to help out on Wade or James. That's not really a function of passing or point guard play.

Sorry your wrong its always been about Docs coaching. Go back and read some of the articles pre 07/08

  You mean when some of his top rotation players were people like West, Gomes and Green? Hint: it wasn't necessarily the coaching. It's also true that he was coach of the year with the Magic.

Of course Lebron commands significantly more attention. He can score the ball consistently. Now if Rondo could actually shoot or draw fouls of the drive and convert free throws then maybe Ray wouldnt have had to work so hard. He could as you say "stand in a spot a spot and wait for his player to help out on Rondo" After all Rondo is the best point guard in the league 

Its all a function of point guard play because he has the ball on every possession.

Kg is a once in a lifetime player and Ray and Pierce in their prime were allstars and hall of fame players. Its going to be interesting in the next few years once all are gone many of these delusions about Doc and Rondo are going to be dispelled.

Regarding Doc. Doc is consistant and steadfast. In the years he has been coach there have been very few organizatinal embarrasments. I really cant think of any except the Telfair situations in New York. For the most parts he keeps the players focused and engaged.
Doc is a great leader and a average coach. There is a difference.

[BballTim]

After all the dust settles this season a two issues are going to be obvious. Ray is not washed up. This next season may be his best in a long time. Secondly us watching Ray have a great season for another team is going to bring questions about Docs proficiency executing a offense. Why has our offense has been so bad for so long?

  Ray's getting close to washed up. That doesn't mean that he won't do well in Miami, where he'll have a much smaller and simpler role in the offense. If he has a great season it won't bring into question Doc's coaching, it will demonstrate how much easier it is to get open looks when you're playing with Wade and James.

You have been a long time proponent of Rondo being the top point guard in the league. How do you figure its easier to get open looks playing with James and Wade than playing with Rondo,Pierce,Garnett?

  LeBron commands significantly more attention from a defense than any of our players. In Boston Ray had to work to get open. In Miami he'll stand in a spot and wait for his player to help out on Wade or James. That's not really a function of passing or point guard play.

Sorry your wrong its always been about Docs coaching. Go back and read some of the articles pre 07/08

  You mean when some of his top rotation players were people like West, Gomes and Green? Hint: it wasn't necessarily the coaching. It's also true that he was coach of the year with the Magic.

Of course Lebron commands significantly more attention. He can score the ball consistently. Now if Rondo could actually shoot or draw fouls of the drive and convert free throws then maybe Ray wouldnt have had to work so hard. He could as you say "stand in a spot a spot and wait for his player to help out on Rondo" After all Rondo is the best point guard in the league 

  Because, as far as you know, there are plenty of point guards in the league that command as much attention as LeBron James.

Its all a function of point guard play because he has the ball on every possession.

  Yes, that's why the Celts are among the league leaders in ts% despite not taking a high amount of layups or 3 point shots. They have a point guard that gets them good looks at the basket.

Kg is a once in a lifetime player and Ray and Pierce in their prime were allstars and hall of fame players. Its going to be interesting in the next few years once all are gone many of these delusions about Doc and Rondo are going to be dispelled.

  Doubtful. If you don't understand that Rondo's one of the better players in the league despite his shooting woes now you probably won't understand it then either. Just like you don't seem to see how the fact that PP/KG/RA were HOF players *in their primes* doesn't help out a lot now.

  If you saw the playoffs last year, Paul and Ray and Bradley were hobbled and Ray (who played 34 mpg due to Bradley's injury) was the only bench player to average 4 or more points a game. In spite of that, Rondo was playing like one of the best players in the league against some of the best defenses in the league. That "Rondo won't be any good without great teammates" claim sounds more ridiculous every time you hear it.

Regarding Doc. Doc is consistant and steadfast. In the years he has been coach there have been very few organizatinal embarrasments. I really cant think of any except the Telfair situations in New York. For the most parts he keeps the players focused and engaged.
Doc is a great leader and a average coach. There is a difference.

  The difference is he has more than 1 player better than Ricky Davis or Wally Szerbiak.

[Chris]

Regarding Doc. Doc is consistant and steadfast. In the years he has been coach there have been very few organizatinal embarrasments. I really cant think of any except the Telfair situations in New York. For the most parts he keeps the players focused and engaged.
Doc is a great leader and a average coach. There is a difference.

I would tweak this just a bit (really just semantics...but important ones).  I would say Doc is a great leader and an average technician.  But that does make for a great HEAD coach.

[FatjohnReturns]

After all the dust settles this season a two issues are going to be obvious. Ray is not washed up. This next season may be his best in a long time. Secondly us watching Ray have a great season for another team is going to bring questions about Docs proficiency executing a offense. Why has our offense has been so bad for so long?

  Ray's getting close to washed up. That doesn't mean that he won't do well in Miami, where he'll have a much smaller and simpler role in the offense. If he has a great season it won't bring into question Doc's coaching, it will demonstrate how much easier it is to get open looks when you're playing with Wade and James.

You have been a long time proponent of Rondo being the top point guard in the league. How do you figure its easier to get open looks playing with James and Wade than playing with Rondo,Pierce,Garnett?

  LeBron commands significantly more attention from a defense than any of our players. In Boston Ray had to work to get open. In Miami he'll stand in a spot and wait for his player to help out on Wade or James. That's not really a function of passing or point guard play.

Sorry your wrong its always been about Docs coaching. Go back and read some of the articles pre 07/08

  You mean when some of his top rotation players were people like West, Gomes and Green? Hint: it wasn't necessarily the coaching. It's also true that he was coach of the year with the Magic.

Of course Lebron commands significantly more attention. He can score the ball consistently. Now if Rondo could actually shoot or draw fouls of the drive and convert free throws then maybe Ray wouldnt have had to work so hard. He could as you say "stand in a spot a spot and wait for his player to help out on Rondo" After all Rondo is the best point guard in the league 

  Because, as far as you know, there are plenty of point guards in the league that command as much attention as LeBron James.

Its all a function of point guard play because he has the ball on every possession.

  Yes, that's why the Celts are among the league leaders in ts% despite not taking a high amount of layups or 3 point shots. They have a point guard that gets them good looks at the basket.

Kg is a once in a lifetime player and Ray and Pierce in their prime were allstars and hall of fame players. Its going to be interesting in the next few years once all are gone many of these delusions about Doc and Rondo are going to be dispelled.

  Doubtful. If you don't understand that Rondo's one of the better players in the league despite his shooting woes now you probably won't understand it then either. Just like you don't seem to see how the fact that PP/KG/RA were HOF players *in their primes* doesn't help out a lot now.

  If you saw the playoffs last year, Paul and Ray and Bradley were hobbled and Ray (who played 34 mpg due to Bradley's injury) was the only bench player to average 4 or more points a game. In spite of that, Rondo was playing like one of the best players in the league against some of the best defenses in the league. That "Rondo won't be any good without great teammates" claim sounds more ridiculous every time you hear it.

Regarding Doc. Doc is consistant and steadfast. In the years he has been coach there have been very few organizatinal embarrasments. I really cant think of any except the Telfair situations in New York. For the most parts he keeps the players focused and engaged.
Doc is a great leader and a average coach. There is a difference.

  The difference is he has more than 1 player better than Ricky Davis or Wally Szerbiak.

Oh please Tim. If you broke down amount of clock time Rondo has the ball in a season it would probably be 85% or 90% of the Celtics total possession time.He produces because he has so so many oppurtunities thats it. Players with NBA skill level given so much oppertunity would produce similar results.

Sorry shooting and especially shooting free throws is a necessary skill for a point guard. Its not some magical handicap.Its all practice. He doesnt feel he needs to get better ala Shaq.

[kozlodoev]

Oh please Tim. If you broke down amount of clock time Rondo has the ball in a season it would probably be 85% or 90% of the Celtics total possession time.He produces because he has so so many oppurtunities thats it. Players with NBA skill level given so much oppertunity would produce similar results.

True dat. Perfectly evidenced by the fact that every team has a dude that averages 12 assists per game. Wait, what?!

[BballTim]

After all the dust settles this season a two issues are going to be obvious. Ray is not washed up. This next season may be his best in a long time. Secondly us watching Ray have a great season for another team is going to bring questions about Docs proficiency executing a offense. Why has our offense has been so bad for so long?

  Ray's getting close to washed up. That doesn't mean that he won't do well in Miami, where he'll have a much smaller and simpler role in the offense. If he has a great season it won't bring into question Doc's coaching, it will demonstrate how much easier it is to get open looks when you're playing with Wade and James.

You have been a long time proponent of Rondo being the top point guard in the league. How do you figure its easier to get open looks playing with James and Wade than playing with Rondo,Pierce,Garnett?

  LeBron commands significantly more attention from a defense than any of our players. In Boston Ray had to work to get open. In Miami he'll stand in a spot and wait for his player to help out on Wade or James. That's not really a function of passing or point guard play.

Sorry your wrong its always been about Docs coaching. Go back and read some of the articles pre 07/08

  You mean when some of his top rotation players were people like West, Gomes and Green? Hint: it wasn't necessarily the coaching. It's also true that he was coach of the year with the Magic.

Of course Lebron commands significantly more attention. He can score the ball consistently. Now if Rondo could actually shoot or draw fouls of the drive and convert free throws then maybe Ray wouldnt have had to work so hard. He could as you say "stand in a spot a spot and wait for his player to help out on Rondo" After all Rondo is the best point guard in the league 

  Because, as far as you know, there are plenty of point guards in the league that command as much attention as LeBron James.

Its all a function of point guard play because he has the ball on every possession.

  Yes, that's why the Celts are among the league leaders in ts% despite not taking a high amount of layups or 3 point shots. They have a point guard that gets them good looks at the basket.

Kg is a once in a lifetime player and Ray and Pierce in their prime were allstars and hall of fame players. Its going to be interesting in the next few years once all are gone many of these delusions about Doc and Rondo are going to be dispelled.

  Doubtful. If you don't understand that Rondo's one of the better players in the league despite his shooting woes now you probably won't understand it then either. Just like you don't seem to see how the fact that PP/KG/RA were HOF players *in their primes* doesn't help out a lot now.

  If you saw the playoffs last year, Paul and Ray and Bradley were hobbled and Ray (who played 34 mpg due to Bradley's injury) was the only bench player to average 4 or more points a game. In spite of that, Rondo was playing like one of the best players in the league against some of the best defenses in the league. That "Rondo won't be any good without great teammates" claim sounds more ridiculous every time you hear it.

Regarding Doc. Doc is consistant and steadfast. In the years he has been coach there have been very few organizatinal embarrasments. I really cant think of any except the Telfair situations in New York. For the most parts he keeps the players focused and engaged.
Doc is a great leader and a average coach. There is a difference.

  The difference is he has more than 1 player better than Ricky Davis or Wally Szerbiak.

Oh please Tim. If you broke down amount of clock time Rondo has the ball in a season it would probably be 85% or 90% of the Celtics total possession time.He produces because he has so so many oppurtunities thats it. Players with NBA skill level given so much oppertunity would produce similar results.

  No, you have it backwards. He has the ball so much because he produces. Obviously if you could get that level of production from any pg with nba skill level then half the teams in the league would have point guards that averaged a double-double for $3-4M a year.

Sorry shooting and especially shooting free throws is a necessary skill for a point guard. Its not some magical handicap.Its all practice. He doesnt feel he needs to get better ala Shaq.

  If all you had to do to improve your shooting and free throws was practice you'd never see players do it poorly. But Rondo is one of the best point guards in the league, so saying those skills are necessary is obviously false. Clearly they're very valuable skills, clearly you can get by without them if you're well above average at most other things.

[FatKidsDad]

Sorry shooting and especially shooting free throws is a necessary skill for a point guard. Its not some magical handicap.Its all practice. He doesnt feel he needs to get better ala Shaq.

Necessary skills, indeed.  But the continued assertion that Rondo doesn't possess them is a myth.

According to Rondo's NBA.COM career stats page for playoff ball Rondo:

Ranks #12 in the NBA in Field-Goal Percentage (0.468)

Ranks #45 in the NBA in Free-Throw Percentage (0.696)
 

12th and 45th out of 192 on the playoff rosters may not be great, but it isn't awful by any means.

[More Banners]

Jiri Welch put up some decent numbers around here for a while, too.  Came off screens a lot, if I remember, and tried to copy Pierce's physical play off the bounce in the midrange.  Per 36 of 12/5/3 in his sophomore year, getting 27 minutes with us.

[Galeto]

  The main reason we're a bottom third offense is that we're a historically bad offensive rebounding team. Giving the ball to Ray and Paul more won't help with that.

The historically bad offensive rebounding didn't just happen on its own.  Personnel and perhaps an overzealous focus on getting back on defense contributed but shot selection also played a major part.  Mid-range shots statistically produce the fewest offensive rebounds and wouldn't you know, the Celtics have shot a ton of mid-range shots the past few years.  All the while, they've been near the bottom in three point attempts and attempts near the basket, shots which result in a lot more offensive rebounds than mid-range jumpers. 

My beef with giving the ball to Rondo all the time and Doc not trying to adjust even in the face of terrible, excruciating to watch offense is that it's such an extreme way to play basketball.  Only two other point guards, Nash and Paul, have the ball as much as Rondo but in their case, it's at least understandable why since they've both led top five offenses in the past.  Nash directed Phoenix to the 9th best offense season (which underrates just how great Phoenix's offense was in the second half of the season) and it's hard to believe he had more firepower and skill surrounding him than Rondo. Paul led the Clippers to the 4th best offense and he didn't have much shooting around him after Billups went down.  The Celtics were freaking 27th on offense.  Their extreme style of play didn't work and it hadn't worked for the past few years.  In the face of that, why not try to tweak things?  It's more maddening since they Pierce and Ray had more types of shots and passes to contribute.

[BballTim]

  The main reason we're a bottom third offense is that we're a historically bad offensive rebounding team. Giving the ball to Ray and Paul more won't help with that.

The historically bad offensive rebounding didn't just happen on its own.  Personnel and perhaps an overzealous focus on getting back on defense contributed but shot selection also played a major part.  Mid-range shots statistically produce the fewest offensive rebounds and wouldn't you know, the Celtics have shot a ton of mid-range shots the past few years.  All the while, they've been near the bottom in three point attempts and attempts near the basket, shots which result in a lot more offensive rebounds than mid-range jumpers. 

  This is true, but it's not Rondo's fault and taking the ball out of his hands won't solve the problem.

My beef with giving the ball to Rondo all the time and Doc not trying to adjust even in the face of terrible, excruciating to watch offense is that it's such an extreme way to play basketball.  Only two other point guards, Nash and Paul, have the ball as much as Rondo but in their case, it's at least understandable why since they've both led top five offenses in the past.  Nash directed Phoenix to the 9th best offense season (which underrates just how great Phoenix's offense was in the second half of the season) and it's hard to believe he had more firepower and skill surrounding him than Rondo. Paul led the Clippers to the 4th best offense and he didn't have much shooting around him after Billups went down.  The Celtics were freaking 27th on offense.  Their extreme style of play didn't work and it hadn't worked for the past few years.  In the face of that, why not try to tweak things?  It's more maddening since they Pierce and Ray had more types of shots and passes to contribute.

  If you look at how efficiently the teams score when they shoot, it's a draw. The Clips are 7th in the league in eFG%, the Suns 9th and the Celts 10th. The Suns are 6th in TS%, the Celts 7th and the Clips 10th. So in spite of the Celts being at the lower end of the league in threes and inside attempts and (by all accounts) having a team loaded with players that can't create their own shot they're still one of the most efficient (points per shot) scoring teams in the league. Much of that credit has to go directly to Rondo, as he's responsible for getting the Celts higher-percentage shots to make up for the low efficiency shot selection.

[FatjohnReturns]

Sorry shooting and especially shooting free throws is a necessary skill for a point guard. Its not some magical handicap.Its all practice. He doesnt feel he needs to get better ala Shaq.

Necessary skills, indeed.  But the continued assertion that Rondo doesn't possess them is a myth.

According to Rondo's NBA.COM career stats page for playoff ball Rondo:

Ranks #12 in the NBA in Field-Goal Percentage (0.468)

Ranks #45 in the NBA in Free-Throw Percentage (0.696)
 

12th and 45th out of 192 on the playoff rosters may not be great, but it isn't awful by any means.

Check your facts
No. Rondos career free throw % is .619. and his 3pt shooting is .241. His turnovers totals have climbed every year he has been in the league. Last year 3.64 turnovers a game.

He is the most overated player in the League. There is a reason he has little trade value.