The Horror!! SEA/GBP - NFL Officiating

[Moranis]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

Sure, but you can't let a WR push off like that.  Most clear case of pass interference I think I've ever seen.  Game should have been over by penalty.  Period.

[crownsy]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Tate had no claim on it until they hit the ground, and he repositioned himself on it. Jennings had that ball in the air and when they hit the ground, and all tate got of it was one hand on it on the ground.

[fairweatherfan]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

My immediate thinking when the play happened was "just how many people know what the simultaneous catch rule says, anyway?"  But I looked it up:

Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

...and it seems like they need to both get the ball at the same time, not just both wind up with hands on the ball.  It looked like Jennings had the ball before Tate was able to lock onto it, and Tate initially had Jennings' wrist but shifted to the ball as they fell. 

It's not an open-and-shut case but it looked like it didn't fit with the rule.

[Donoghus]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

My immediate thinking when the play happened was "just how many people know what the simultaneous catch rule says, anyway?"  But I looked it up:

Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

...and it seems like they need to both get the ball at the same time, not just both wind up with hands on the ball.  It looked like Jennings had the ball before Tate was able to lock onto it, and Tate initially had Jennings' wrist but shifted to the ball as they fell. 

It's not an open-and-shut case but it looked like it didn't fit with the rule.

That's how I understand it too.  To my eyes, Jennings had the ball and came down with it.  Tate then wrestled it away in the aftermath but really after the play should've been whistled over.

Jennings caught & came down with it, then the twisting and Tate gained more & more of control.

[Chris]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

My immediate thinking when the play happened was "just how many people know what the simultaneous catch rule says, anyway?"  But I looked it up:

Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

...and it seems like they need to both get the ball at the same time, not just both wind up with hands on the ball.  It looked like Jennings had the ball before Tate was able to lock onto it, and Tate initially had Jennings' wrist but shifted to the ball as they fell. 

It's not an open-and-shut case but it looked like it didn't fit with the rule.

Oh yeah, well thats the other thing.  It wasn't that the call was right.  It was that there was not overwhelming evidence to overturn it. 

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

Sure, but you can't let a WR push off like that.  Most clear case of pass interference I think I've ever seen.  Game should have been over by penalty.  Period.

Oh, absolutely.  But that stuff gets missed all the time (and with the replacement refs, DBs and WRs are fighting non-stop), and is not reviewable.  So I can't get too up in arms over that...although it is an instance of where I think the biggest issue with the replacement refs has shown itself.

I really don't care that much about the blown calls, because I think the regular refs blew nearly as many, it just wasn't under the microscope like it is now...What I care about is that the game has changed.  The players (and coaches) don't respect the refs, and are trying to get away with a lot more, and the games are just getting out of hand.  There are fouls on just about every play, and the refs clearly don't know how to get control.

[crownsy]

interesting read. The ref who called it a pick was the only college experienced ref near the play.

The guy who called it a TD so emphatically is a high school ref.

http://deadspin.com/5946169/the-packers+seahawks-refs-who-are-those-guys

[Moranis]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

My immediate thinking when the play happened was "just how many people know what the simultaneous catch rule says, anyway?"  But I looked it up:

Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

...and it seems like they need to both get the ball at the same time, not just both wind up with hands on the ball.  It looked like Jennings had the ball before Tate was able to lock onto it, and Tate initially had Jennings' wrist but shifted to the ball as they fell. 

It's not an open-and-shut case but it looked like it didn't fit with the rule.

You cannot gain control until you hit the ground though.  By the time they hit the ground, Tate had a lot more possession on the ball and thus it isn't a crazy ruling that it was a simultaneous catch.

[Lucky17]

interesting read. The ref who called it a pick was the only college experienced ref near the play.

The guy who called it a TD so emphatically is a high school ref.

http://deadspin.com/5946169/the-packers+seahawks-refs-who-are-those-guys

Ah, that explains it. In high school, if you catch the guy who catches the ball in the end zone, you get credit for a TD.

[crownsy]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

My immediate thinking when the play happened was "just how many people know what the simultaneous catch rule says, anyway?"  But I looked it up:

Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

...and it seems like they need to both get the ball at the same time, not just both wind up with hands on the ball.  It looked like Jennings had the ball before Tate was able to lock onto it, and Tate initially had Jennings' wrist but shifted to the ball as they fell. 

It's not an open-and-shut case but it looked like it didn't fit with the rule.

You cannot gain control until you hit the ground though.  By the time they hit the ground, Tate had a lot more possession on the ball and thus it isn't a crazy ruling that it was a simultaneous catch.

Tate never had more than one hand on it. He never had anything like "more possession of the ball" than Jennings.

[fairweatherfan]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

My immediate thinking when the play happened was "just how many people know what the simultaneous catch rule says, anyway?"  But I looked it up:

Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

...and it seems like they need to both get the ball at the same time, not just both wind up with hands on the ball.  It looked like Jennings had the ball before Tate was able to lock onto it, and Tate initially had Jennings' wrist but shifted to the ball as they fell. 

It's not an open-and-shut case but it looked like it didn't fit with the rule.

You cannot gain control until you hit the ground though.  By the time they hit the ground, Tate had a lot more possession on the ball and thus it isn't a crazy ruling that it was a simultaneous catch.

I'm not an NFL guy but I don't think that's true.  Announcers always talk about "maintaining control" to the ground to complete a catch.  I think "gaining control" just means you're holding the ball so securely that it isn't moving around.  That's not enough to complete a catch but it is how a catch begins, and that seems to be the key factor in the rule.

To put it another way, I've seen lots of cases - both catches and interceptions - where one guy clearly catches it in the air and by the time he's on the ground an opponent also has a grip on the ball.  Those don't get called simultaneous catches that I've seen.

I don't think it's a crazy call by any means though.  Close either way.



EDIT:  Looked up the standard catch rules too.  Here's the part I mean:

A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

I cut the rest but it talks about "maintaining control" as a separate phase, including going to ground.  So gaining and maintaining control are separate aspects, and gaining is the key for simultaneous catches.

[Donoghus]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

My immediate thinking when the play happened was "just how many people know what the simultaneous catch rule says, anyway?"  But I looked it up:

Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

...and it seems like they need to both get the ball at the same time, not just both wind up with hands on the ball.  It looked like Jennings had the ball before Tate was able to lock onto it, and Tate initially had Jennings' wrist but shifted to the ball as they fell. 

It's not an open-and-shut case but it looked like it didn't fit with the rule.

You cannot gain control until you hit the ground though.  By the time they hit the ground, Tate had a lot more possession on the ball and thus it isn't a crazy ruling that it was a simultaneous catch.

Tate never had more than one hand on it. He never had anything like "more possession of the ball" than Jennings.

When Jennings first lands and his back is on top of Tate, it sure as heck looks like Jennings has possession.

[kozlodoev]

interesting read. The ref who called it a pick was the only college experienced ref near the play.

The guy who called it a TD so emphatically is a high school ref.

http://deadspin.com/5946169/the-packers+seahawks-refs-who-are-those-guys

Ah, that explains it. In high school, if you catch the guy who catches the ball in the end zone, you get credit for a TD.

There's nothing like this happening on the play though. The following stuff can be seen:

1. Tate commits PI (pretty blatant, acknowledged by the league, cannot be reviewed).

2. Jennings catches the ball in the air. At this point, Tate only has his left hand on the ball (his arm is between Jennings' forearm and his body; clearly seen on the video replay from the back).

3. Players go to the ground. At this point, Tate is grappling to put his right hand on the ball. Question is, does he manage to do this in time.

After reviewing the replays, I find the call much less controversial than I thought it initially. Especially if by definition control cannot be established until a player has two feet on the ground.

[mmmmm]

I think after looking at this a couple more times, the refs might have made the right call. The more I see it, the more of a simultaneous catch it looks like.

That's how I understand it too.  To my eyes, Jennings had the ball and came down with it.  Tate then wrestled it away in the aftermath but really after the play should've been whistled over.

Jennings caught & came down with it, then the twisting and Tate gained more & more of control.
Yeah, I agree.  I think by the letter of the law, it is a simultaneous catch.  There is nothing in the rule about who has a better claim on the ball.  It is just a matter of whether both players had "possession", which really just means they have their hands on the ball, their feet (or body) on the ground, and the ball isn't moving within their hands.

My immediate thinking when the play happened was "just how many people know what the simultaneous catch rule says, anyway?"  But I looked it up:

Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control

...and it seems like they need to both get the ball at the same time, not just both wind up with hands on the ball.  It looked like Jennings had the ball before Tate was able to lock onto it, and Tate initially had Jennings' wrist but shifted to the ball as they fell. 

It's not an open-and-shut case but it looked like it didn't fit with the rule.

Jennings may have got initial control first, but its not clear that he retained control by the time they came down.

If a reciever gets control in the air, but loses control before he lands, it is not a catch.   For example, it slips from his hands or a defender knocks it free before he lands.

So the fact that Jennings was the first to get control isn't enough to establish the INT for him.

Jennings touches it first.  But while Jennings was still in the air, Tate got his arm in between Jennings and the ball and also grabbed it tight.  Here is a vid of the play.  The 0:47 and 1:04 marks show this clearly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6hTFMD5NX1Q

By the time they hit the ground, both players have pretty much equal 'control' of the ball.  Certainly within the bounds of a reasonable judgement call.  At game speed (or even in slow-motion) there's no way that you could assertively say that Jennings definitively had exclusive control because Tate's arm is in their immediately.   

And from the perspective of the ref who ran up from the near-side cone, he sees the ball inside of Tate's arms and against HIS chest.  Look at the exact moment they land, at 1:07.

Periero - the former NFL ref that ESPN brought out (who is hardly without agenda here) - kept asserting that Jennings must have control because he pulled it into his chest.  But at the same time, Tate's arm is between the ball and Jenning's chest and Tate pulls just as tightly to it - and eventually pulls the ball free, indicating how strong of a purchase Tate must have had.  He's not exactly a big brute of a guy.

Thus, all things considered, a 'tie catch' is probably the correct call.

Mind you, I do not plan on trying to make this argument when visiting Wisconsin.      'Might as well bring up the 'Tuck Rule' in Oakland!   This will be argued for years.

The refs totally botched many, many other things in that game, of course.  The DPI on Shields earlier in that drive should have been either a no-call or at worst offsetting.  The game should never have come down to the endzone catch.  I believe that the Packers definitely got robbed.

Bizarre.   Much more entertaining when it wasn't the Patriots getting screwed.  It sure wasn't funny on Sunday.

[kozlodoev]

Tate never had more than one hand on it. He never had anything like "more possession of the ball" than Jennings.

This is not true at all. If you look at about 1:00 of the video below, you'll see that Tate:

(1) hits the ground first
(2) appears to place his right hand on the ball before he does

Happens right in front of the official who called the TD. Also, the one who called the touchback doesn't have a good view of Tate's feet and likely is only able to see what's going on after Jennings has hit the ground.

http://player.ooyala.com/player.js?deepLinkEmbedCode=k0cXJ5NTrlv-7BFGgBCSgTq1qG2ExnQ1&width=100height%3D100

edit: Video doesn't seem to embed well. This is the video from the article I linked to earlier in the thread.

[kozlodoev]

The refs totally botched many, many other things in that game, of course.  The DPI on Shields earlier in that drive should have been either a no-call or at worst offsetting.  The game should never have come down to the endzone catch.  I believe that the Packers definitely got robbed.

I saw a clear tug of the shirt by Shields. Not sure why the media largely seem to ignore this. Am I missing a rule where you're allowed to hold a player by the jersey when he's tryign to make a catch?

Also, the last GB run was kept alive by a considerably more ridiculous PI call, on which the defensive back appeared to stick his arm and disrupt the pass while making minimal, if any, contact.

As for the rest of the post: you beat me to it.