Hollinger: Boston Celtic Player Profiles

[indeedproceed]

He also beat a steam engine in a competition to see who could lay down rails faster. In OKC when people see him, they say, "there goes a steel drivin man"

[GreenEnvy]

Durant, an elite athlete ? 

I consider strength also to be a part of athleticism, and if a light wind blows Durant will find himself somewhere across on the other side of the city, getting beat up on by 12 year old school girls. 

At least Green has SOME meat on him!

How many 6'9 guys can D up 3's and some 2's?

Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Nic Batum...and I'm outta names.

He's an elite athlete because for his size and length he can still keep up with guys enough to stay in front of them. He's also not the rail thin guy he was as a rookie. He was what, the 3rd, 4th best rebounding 3 in the league? You don't get that without a fair amount of muscle.

Green is a better athlete than all of those guys sans LeBron (obviously). Those guys are just lanky and quick. That doesn't make you athletic. Besides, I think Green can guard bigger 2's anyway.

Green has an elite combination of size, speed, strength and hops. I'd define that as athleticism.


And are you really trying to claim Durant has a fair amount of muscle? The guy is a rail, is underweight, and couldn't bench 185 at the pre-draft combine with basically an identical body.

[indeedproceed]

Durant, an elite athlete ? 

I consider strength also to be a part of athleticism, and if a light wind blows Durant will find himself somewhere across on the other side of the city, getting beat up on by 12 year old school girls. 

At least Green has SOME meat on him!

How many 6'9 guys can D up 3's and some 2's?

Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Nic Batum...and I'm outta names.

He's an elite athlete because for his size and length he can still keep up with guys enough to stay in front of them. He's also not the rail thin guy he was as a rookie. He was what, the 3rd, 4th best rebounding 3 in the league? You don't get that without a fair amount of muscle.

Green is a better athlete than all of those guys sans LeBron (obviously). Those guys are just lanky and quick. That doesn't make you athletic. Besides, I think Green can guard bigger 2's anyway.

Green has an elite combination of size, speed, strength and hops. I'd define that as athleticism.


And are you really trying to claim Durant has a fair amount of muscle? The guy is a rail, is underweight, and couldn't bench 185 at the pre-draft combine with basically an identical body.

Durant had the 4th best rebound percentage among starting SFs. He ably defended the position.

What part of that says 'average athlete'?

[GreenEnvy]

Durant, an elite athlete ? 

I consider strength also to be a part of athleticism, and if a light wind blows Durant will find himself somewhere across on the other side of the city, getting beat up on by 12 year old school girls. 

At least Green has SOME meat on him!

How many 6'9 guys can D up 3's and some 2's?

Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Nic Batum...and I'm outta names.

He's an elite athlete because for his size and length he can still keep up with guys enough to stay in front of them. He's also not the rail thin guy he was as a rookie. He was what, the 3rd, 4th best rebounding 3 in the league? You don't get that without a fair amount of muscle.

Green is a better athlete than all of those guys sans LeBron (obviously). Those guys are just lanky and quick. That doesn't make you athletic. Besides, I think Green can guard bigger 2's anyway.

Green has an elite combination of size, speed, strength and hops. I'd define that as athleticism.


And are you really trying to claim Durant has a fair amount of muscle? The guy is a rail, is underweight, and couldn't bench 185 at the pre-draft combine with basically an identical body.

Durant had the 4th best rebound percentage among starting SFs. He ably defended the position.

What part of that says 'average athlete'?

I never said he was "average," but citing rebound rates for a guy who is probably the tallest at his position doesn't mean that much. I'm sure Pau Gasol has good rebounding rates, and few would consider him strong or athletic.

Rebounding is an art form. Look at Kevin Love. Not overly strong, tall, or athletic, yet he cleans the glass better than anybody.

I fail to see the correlation between rebounding and athleticism. I'm sure I can point to a bunch of "athletes" who have terrible rebounding rates.

[BballTim]

Durant, an elite athlete ? 

I consider strength also to be a part of athleticism, and if a light wind blows Durant will find himself somewhere across on the other side of the city, getting beat up on by 12 year old school girls. 

At least Green has SOME meat on him!

How many 6'9 guys can D up 3's and some 2's?

Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Nic Batum...and I'm outta names.

He's an elite athlete because for his size and length he can still keep up with guys enough to stay in front of them. He's also not the rail thin guy he was as a rookie. He was what, the 3rd, 4th best rebounding 3 in the league? You don't get that without a fair amount of muscle.

Green is a better athlete than all of those guys sans LeBron (obviously). Those guys are just lanky and quick. That doesn't make you athletic. Besides, I think Green can guard bigger 2's anyway.

Green has an elite combination of size, speed, strength and hops. I'd define that as athleticism.


And are you really trying to claim Durant has a fair amount of muscle? The guy is a rail, is underweight, and couldn't bench 185 at the pre-draft combine with basically an identical body.

Durant had the 4th best rebound percentage among starting SFs. He ably defended the position.

What part of that says 'average athlete'?

  Depends on how you define athlete. Bird was a much better rebounder and defender (also a sf) and he's rarely referred to as an elite athlete.

[indeedproceed]

Durant, an elite athlete ? 

I consider strength also to be a part of athleticism, and if a light wind blows Durant will find himself somewhere across on the other side of the city, getting beat up on by 12 year old school girls. 

At least Green has SOME meat on him!

How many 6'9 guys can D up 3's and some 2's?

Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Nic Batum...and I'm outta names.

He's an elite athlete because for his size and length he can still keep up with guys enough to stay in front of them. He's also not the rail thin guy he was as a rookie. He was what, the 3rd, 4th best rebounding 3 in the league? You don't get that without a fair amount of muscle.

Green is a better athlete than all of those guys sans LeBron (obviously). Those guys are just lanky and quick. That doesn't make you athletic. Besides, I think Green can guard bigger 2's anyway.

Green has an elite combination of size, speed, strength and hops. I'd define that as athleticism.


And are you really trying to claim Durant has a fair amount of muscle? The guy is a rail, is underweight, and couldn't bench 185 at the pre-draft combine with basically an identical body.

Durant had the 4th best rebound percentage among starting SFs. He ably defended the position.

What part of that says 'average athlete'?

  Depends on how you define athlete. Bird was a much better rebounder and defender (also a sf) and he's rarely referred to as an elite athlete.

Well, that's not really apples to apples though. As Bill Simmons said, Bird came at the end of an era for the SF position. Athleticism followed and after Rodman, athletic lanky forwards gave him considerable troubles. Was George Mikan athletic?

 

Durant, an elite athlete ? 

I consider strength also to be a part of athleticism, and if a light wind blows Durant will find himself somewhere across on the other side of the city, getting beat up on by 12 year old school girls. 

At least Green has SOME meat on him!

How many 6'9 guys can D up 3's and some 2's?

Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Nic Batum...and I'm outta names.

He's an elite athlete because for his size and length he can still keep up with guys enough to stay in front of them. He's also not the rail thin guy he was as a rookie. He was what, the 3rd, 4th best rebounding 3 in the league? You don't get that without a fair amount of muscle.

Green is a better athlete than all of those guys sans LeBron (obviously). Those guys are just lanky and quick. That doesn't make you athletic. Besides, I think Green can guard bigger 2's anyway.

Green has an elite combination of size, speed, strength and hops. I'd define that as athleticism.


And are you really trying to claim Durant has a fair amount of muscle? The guy is a rail, is underweight, and couldn't bench 185 at the pre-draft combine with basically an identical body.

Durant had the 4th best rebound percentage among starting SFs. He ably defended the position.

What part of that says 'average athlete'?

I never said he was "average," but citing rebound rates for a guy who is probably the tallest at his position doesn't mean that much. I'm sure Pau Gasol has good rebounding rates, and few would consider him strong or athletic.

Rebounding is an art form. Look at Kevin Love. Not overly strong, tall, or athletic, yet he cleans the glass better than anybody.

I fail to see the correlation between rebounding and athleticism. I'm sure I can point to a bunch of "athletes" who have terrible rebounding rates.

Rebounding is one of the biggest indicators to athleticm. There are exceptions to the rule (Love, Reggie Evans) , but the situation is that Durant has athletic markers all over the place. Shaq was athletic, but not because he ran a 4.4 40. Shaq was athletic because he could do things no 7' guy should be able to do. Same with Durant.

[Fafnir]

And Durant isn't 6'9, he's likely closer to 6'11.

I believe he measured out taller than Dwight Howard at some point a little while back. (or at least taller than Howard is listed at)

Made some jokes about it on twitter.

[gar]

Hope he is wrong on Courtney Lee; but other than his outstanding rookie play, he has fallen off since his injury and plays too passive.

He will need to have a resurgence to prove his worth in Boston.

[mmmmm]

Well, that's not really apples to apples though. As Bill Simmons said, Bird came at the end of an era for the SF position. Athleticism followed and after Rodman, athletic lanky forwards gave him considerable troubles. Was George Mikan athletic?

...

Rebounding is one of the biggest indicators to athleticm. There are exceptions to the rule (Love, Reggie Evans) , but the situation is that Durant has athletic markers all over the place. Shaq was athletic, but not because he ran a 4.4 40. Shaq was athletic because he could do things no 7' guy should be able to do. Same with Durant.

I think there are several axis along which one can be considered 'athletic' and I don't think folks will reach consensus on which is most important. 

You seem to think that it correlates with what I'd call 'gymnastics' athleticism, which is a reasonable take.   Its hard to argue that gymnasts aren't athletic so it makes for an easy to understand standard.  Leaping, running, strength, agility.  Pretty obvious attributes.

Here is some fodder for thought:

Did you know that Jeff Green measured out with a 33.5" no-step vertical at his draft combine?  That's more than SEVEN INCHES HIGHER than Kevin Durant measured (26.0)!  Green also had a significantly higher 'max vertical':  38.0" to 33.5".

Green's 3/4 sprint was also significantly faster:  3.34s compared to 3.45s.  Green ended up ranked 18th in overall combine marks at that draft while Durant ended up 78th.

This was clearly way back at their combine - so how relevant those numbers are at today is of course arguable.

But at least at that time, its hard to make an argument that Durant was an elite athlete and Green was not - along that particular set of axis.

I think, though, there are really some broader attributes to athleticism than just those.

Speed. Strength. Quickness (different than speed). Body control.  Hand-eye coordination (again, different from body control).  Stamina.  Other things not in my head at the moment.

Someone could be 'elite' at some of these and not others.

Are Olympic archers elite athletes?  Some looked a little soft & pudgy.  But they can do something no other athletes can do because of their skill and precision.

I think George Mikan WAS an elite athlete - he had superior strength, endurance AND body control, to go along with his raw size.

I think Larry Bird WAS an elite athlete - for similar reasons - body control, hand-eye coordination.  He may have lacked speed, but had amazing quickness.

[mmmmm]

And Durant isn't 6'9, he's likely closer to 6'11.

I believe he measured out taller than Dwight Howard at some point a little while back. (or at least taller than Howard is listed at)

Made some jokes about it on twitter.

This is almost true.  Here are some pre-draft measurements:

Player	no shoes	w/shoes	wingspan	standing reach
Howard	6' 9"	6' 10.25"	7' 4.5"	9' 3.5"
Durant	6' 9"	6' 10.25"	7' 4.75"	9" 2"

Howard, of course, out weighs Durant by a significant amount.

[Fafnir]

And Durant isn't 6'9, he's likely closer to 6'11.

I believe he measured out taller than Dwight Howard at some point a little while back. (or at least taller than Howard is listed at)

Made some jokes about it on twitter.

This is almost true.  Here are some pre-draft measurements:

Player	no shoes	w/shoes	wingspan	standing reach
Howard	6' 9"	6' 10.25"	7' 4.5"	9' 3.5"
Durant	6' 9"	6' 10.25"	7' 4.75"	9" 2"

Howard, of course, out weighs Durant by a significant amount.

I think this was after a year or two in the league, Durant has grown some (as has Howard)

[BballTim]

Durant, an elite athlete ? 

I consider strength also to be a part of athleticism, and if a light wind blows Durant will find himself somewhere across on the other side of the city, getting beat up on by 12 year old school girls. 

At least Green has SOME meat on him!

How many 6'9 guys can D up 3's and some 2's?

Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Nic Batum...and I'm outta names.

He's an elite athlete because for his size and length he can still keep up with guys enough to stay in front of them. He's also not the rail thin guy he was as a rookie. He was what, the 3rd, 4th best rebounding 3 in the league? You don't get that without a fair amount of muscle.

Green is a better athlete than all of those guys sans LeBron (obviously). Those guys are just lanky and quick. That doesn't make you athletic. Besides, I think Green can guard bigger 2's anyway.

Green has an elite combination of size, speed, strength and hops. I'd define that as athleticism.


And are you really trying to claim Durant has a fair amount of muscle? The guy is a rail, is underweight, and couldn't bench 185 at the pre-draft combine with basically an identical body.

Durant had the 4th best rebound percentage among starting SFs. He ably defended the position.

What part of that says 'average athlete'?

  Depends on how you define athlete. Bird was a much better rebounder and defender (also a sf) and he's rarely referred to as an elite athlete.

Well, that's not really apples to apples though. As Bill Simmons said, Bird came at the end of an era for the SF position. Athleticism followed and after Rodman, athletic lanky forwards gave him considerable troubles. Was George Mikan athletic?

  There were plenty of good small forwards when Bird played, Rodman didn't spend much time in the league when Bird was healthy and he didn't really give Bird considerable troubles. An aside, but I don't know why people hold Bill Simmons up as some kind of expert. You might as well say "my dad said" or "my uncle who drinks too much said".

[indeedproceed]

Durant, an elite athlete ? 

I consider strength also to be a part of athleticism, and if a light wind blows Durant will find himself somewhere across on the other side of the city, getting beat up on by 12 year old school girls. 

At least Green has SOME meat on him!

How many 6'9 guys can D up 3's and some 2's?

Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Nic Batum...and I'm outta names.

He's an elite athlete because for his size and length he can still keep up with guys enough to stay in front of them. He's also not the rail thin guy he was as a rookie. He was what, the 3rd, 4th best rebounding 3 in the league? You don't get that without a fair amount of muscle.

Green is a better athlete than all of those guys sans LeBron (obviously). Those guys are just lanky and quick. That doesn't make you athletic. Besides, I think Green can guard bigger 2's anyway.

Green has an elite combination of size, speed, strength and hops. I'd define that as athleticism.


And are you really trying to claim Durant has a fair amount of muscle? The guy is a rail, is underweight, and couldn't bench 185 at the pre-draft combine with basically an identical body.

Durant had the 4th best rebound percentage among starting SFs. He ably defended the position.

What part of that says 'average athlete'?

  Depends on how you define athlete. Bird was a much better rebounder and defender (also a sf) and he's rarely referred to as an elite athlete.

Well, that's not really apples to apples though. As Bill Simmons said, Bird came at the end of an era for the SF position. Athleticism followed and after Rodman, athletic lanky forwards gave him considerable troubles. Was George Mikan athletic?

  There were plenty of good small forwards when Bird played, Rodman didn't spend much time in the league when Bird was healthy and he didn't really give Bird considerable troubles. An aside, but I don't know why people hold Bill Simmons up as some kind of expert. You might as well say "my dad said" or "my uncle who drinks too much said".

It wasn't that there wasn't talent, it was that there wasn't a ton of the modern prototypical SF's.

And as far as Bill Simmons in this context, the man spent years researching and preparing this book, he's more of an authority than your drunk uncle or your dad.

Unless your dad is Bill Walton or something.

[BballTim]

Durant, an elite athlete ? 

I consider strength also to be a part of athleticism, and if a light wind blows Durant will find himself somewhere across on the other side of the city, getting beat up on by 12 year old school girls. 

At least Green has SOME meat on him!

How many 6'9 guys can D up 3's and some 2's?

Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Nic Batum...and I'm outta names.

He's an elite athlete because for his size and length he can still keep up with guys enough to stay in front of them. He's also not the rail thin guy he was as a rookie. He was what, the 3rd, 4th best rebounding 3 in the league? You don't get that without a fair amount of muscle.

Green is a better athlete than all of those guys sans LeBron (obviously). Those guys are just lanky and quick. That doesn't make you athletic. Besides, I think Green can guard bigger 2's anyway.

Green has an elite combination of size, speed, strength and hops. I'd define that as athleticism.


And are you really trying to claim Durant has a fair amount of muscle? The guy is a rail, is underweight, and couldn't bench 185 at the pre-draft combine with basically an identical body.

Durant had the 4th best rebound percentage among starting SFs. He ably defended the position.

What part of that says 'average athlete'?

  Depends on how you define athlete. Bird was a much better rebounder and defender (also a sf) and he's rarely referred to as an elite athlete.

Well, that's not really apples to apples though. As Bill Simmons said, Bird came at the end of an era for the SF position. Athleticism followed and after Rodman, athletic lanky forwards gave him considerable troubles. Was George Mikan athletic?

  There were plenty of good small forwards when Bird played, Rodman didn't spend much time in the league when Bird was healthy and he didn't really give Bird considerable troubles. An aside, but I don't know why people hold Bill Simmons up as some kind of expert. You might as well say "my dad said" or "my uncle who drinks too much said".

It wasn't that there wasn't talent, it was that there wasn't a ton of the modern prototypical SF's.

And as far as Bill Simmons in this context, the man spent years researching and preparing this book, he's more of an authority than your drunk uncle or your dad.

Unless your dad is Bill Walton or something.

  There were plenty of SFs in the 80s that were as athletic as the players that came into the league after Rodman. And I didn't read Bill's book but I've seen enough of his columns on espn to stay with my comment.

[mmmmm]

And Durant isn't 6'9, he's likely closer to 6'11.

I believe he measured out taller than Dwight Howard at some point a little while back. (or at least taller than Howard is listed at)

Made some jokes about it on twitter.

This is almost true.  Here are some pre-draft measurements:

Player	no shoes	w/shoes	wingspan	standing reach
Howard	6' 9"	6' 10.25"	7' 4.5"	9' 3.5"
Durant	6' 9"	6' 10.25"	7' 4.75"	9" 2"

Howard, of course, out weighs Durant by a significant amount.

I think this was after a year or two in the league, Durant has grown some (as has Howard)

  That would be freakish.  Its very rare for a human male to add height past age 17.  Pretty much all male height growth stops by age 19.  Men continue to naturally put on muscle mass into their mid-20s.  But they don't normally grow taller.



I'm not saying I know that neither Durant or Howard may have grown significantly since their draft measurements.   But it is in defiance of norms.  One would expect no more than a millimeter or two.

Not that NBA players are 'normal', of course.