Yes or No? McHale better than Garnett?

[CelticG1]

At his peak, McHale had the "misfortune" of playing next to a top-5 player all-time.  If KG played next to Bird, he never would have won an MVP, either.

If KG played next to Bird with both at their peaks, I could see Bird being seen as better because of the Yay Points! theory, but KG actually having the better season.

By some measures, KG at his peak was at least as good as Bird at his peak.   If you like Win Shares as one of the better single-number stats, KG has two seasons with more win shares than Bird's best and three seasons with a higher WS48 than Bird's best.  I think PER is inferior to win shares, but Garnett has two seasons with a PER higher than Bird's best.

I think Garnett at his peak is a heck of a lot closer to peak Bird than peak McHale in terms of value.

it's not too often I read something on the forums that makes me go "what's he smoking?" but this is one of those comments.

Just curious, did you ever actually see Bird play?  At Larry's peak, the question wasn't whether he was the best in the league but whether he was the best of all time.  KG, despite a HOF-quality career, doesn't even get into that level of discussion.  seriously.

Look who KG beat out for his MVP.  His stiffest competition was Tim Duncan, Kobe and Shaq.  all-time great players to be sure but Larry was winning his MVPs against Magic in his prime, Jordan when he was starting out and already carrying the Bulls on his back, Moses Malone, Bernard King, Sidney Moncrief (a great yet unsung player in those days), Dominique, etc...   All players that were great talents and far superior to what passed for the "cream of the crop" in KG's MVP year.

Yes, I did see Bird play (on TV), but I also know that sometimes your eyes deceive you.

I can't believe we are having a discussion about KG vs McHale.  People are either underrating Garnett or overrating McHale, probably the latter because they are massively overvaluing post scoring.  An aging Garnett in decline was still performing at a HOF level last season.  Garnett has a longer, better peak and has a significantly longer career.  McHale's main advantage is in having better teammates during his peak.

If we were ranking all-time power forwards, I think I would put Garnett ahead of not just McHale but also Karl Malone and Charles Barkley.

  Garnett is a better player than McHale was but he's closer to a McHale level player than a Bird level player. As someone mentioned, people spent much of Larry's career talking about whether he was the best player of all time. KG's rarely if ever mentioned in those terms.

Yeah at the time, but Larrys career was 20-25 years ago. Since then you've had Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron among others. I think besides Jordan (who is on his own level) KG has always been in the same breath as those other guys.

[Moranis]

At his peak, McHale had the "misfortune" of playing next to a top-5 player all-time.  If KG played next to Bird, he never would have won an MVP, either.

If KG played next to Bird with both at their peaks, I could see Bird being seen as better because of the Yay Points! theory, but KG actually having the better season.

By some measures, KG at his peak was at least as good as Bird at his peak.   If you like Win Shares as one of the better single-number stats, KG has two seasons with more win shares than Bird's best and three seasons with a higher WS48 than Bird's best.  I think PER is inferior to win shares, but Garnett has two seasons with a PER higher than Bird's best.

I think Garnett at his peak is a heck of a lot closer to peak Bird than peak McHale in terms of value.

it's not too often I read something on the forums that makes me go "what's he smoking?" but this is one of those comments.

Just curious, did you ever actually see Bird play?  At Larry's peak, the question wasn't whether he was the best in the league but whether he was the best of all time.  KG, despite a HOF-quality career, doesn't even get into that level of discussion.  seriously.

Look who KG beat out for his MVP.  His stiffest competition was Tim Duncan, Kobe and Shaq.  all-time great players to be sure but Larry was winning his MVPs against Magic in his prime, Jordan when he was starting out and already carrying the Bulls on his back, Moses Malone, Bernard King, Sidney Moncrief (a great yet unsung player in those days), Dominique, etc...   All players that were great talents and far superior to what passed for the "cream of the crop" in KG's MVP year.

Yes, I did see Bird play (on TV), but I also know that sometimes your eyes deceive you.

I can't believe we are having a discussion about KG vs McHale.  People are either underrating Garnett or overrating McHale, probably the latter because they are massively overvaluing post scoring.  An aging Garnett in decline was still performing at a HOF level last season.  Garnett has a longer, better peak and has a significantly longer career.  McHale's main advantage is in having better teammates during his peak.

If we were ranking all-time power forwards, I think I would put Garnett ahead of not just McHale but also Karl Malone and Charles Barkley.

  Garnett is a better player than McHale was but he's closer to a McHale level player than a Bird level player. As someone mentioned, people spent much of Larry's career talking about whether he was the best player of all time. KG's rarely if ever mentioned in those terms.

Yeah at the time, but Larrys career was 20-25 years ago. Since then you've had Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron among others. I think besides Jordan (who is on his own level) KG has always been in the same breath as those other guys.

Bird is still mentioned as one of the greatest players of all time though.  Garnett is not. 

The five greatest PF's in league history are Duncan, Malone, McHale, Garnett, and Barkley.  You could argue the order of those five, but that is them.  None of those guys aside from maybe Duncan are considered top ten players of all time. 

[2short]

I'd say, overall, no.  KG is better overall.

I'll give the standard answer, McHale had the better post moves and overall offensive game.  But it's close.

McHale was a good defender, but KG is in my book the 2nd best defender all-time.  Only Russell is ahead.

I've been a huge, huge McHale fan since I can remember.  He's pretty high on my all-time fav Celtics.  He was amazing with the ball, an underrated and quick passer, and an excellent defender, too. 

They're both great in the locker room, though completely opposite.  [imagine a practical joke by KG...]

But KG is truly an all-time defender, and that distinction makes the difference.  There are many ways to score, but to play near-flawless defense...priceless.

But it hurts me to not vote for McHale!

Love Michael and agree with your comments but I have to point out something.  Mchales nickname was the black hole, he was not a good passer he only passed if his man stripped him and the ball went to a teammate 
The one skill that blew me away on kg was his passing, that and I always knew he was a great defender but he adds SO MUCH to team defense it is something that doesn't show up in a stat.  Much like Akeem kg should be in defensive player of the year EVERY year.
I love Kevin Mchale a top tier all time pf, Garnett is the best or second best pf ever, depending on what you like between he and Duncan

[Fafnir]

The five greatest PF's in league history are Duncan, Malone, McHale, Garnett, and Barkley.  You could argue the order of those five, but that is them.  None of those guys aside from maybe Duncan are considered top ten players of all time.

Ring counting > all when it comes to "top ten" lists.

[LooseCannon]

The five greatest PF's in league history are Duncan, Malone, McHale, Garnett, and Barkley.  You could argue the order of those five, but that is them.  None of those guys aside from maybe Duncan are considered top ten players of all time.

I'll just point out that Dirk Nowitzki, Bob Pettit, and Elvin Hayes are guys I have seen discussed as being in the top five power forwards of all-time.

Currently, the Elo player ratings at basketball-reference.com have:

6. Tim Duncan
9. Karl Malone
13. Kevin Garnett
16. Charles Barkley
23. Bob Pettit
26. Elvin Hayes
30. Kevin McHale
47. Dirk Nowitzki

So, I think Garnett is close enough that there are at least some people who consider him a top ten player of all time and more people will if Garnett closes his career out with a few more productive seasons.

[RAcker]

The simple answer for me is "Yes" but not by much.  McHale certainly had the more creative and at times ridiculous offensive game.  However, McHale's team defense was never as sharp as KG.  Bird was always known as the great team defender while McHale took the tough 1 on 1 assignments.  I just think McHale's inside moves offensively slide him by KG just a hair overall.

[celticmania]

no, Garnetts better

[ScoobyDoo]

For me the proposition that Mchale is better than Garnett is like saying Dominique Wilkins put up better numbers than Larry Bird.

Qualification: I'm not saying that McHale was just a Dominique Wilkins level player - he was much more than that. My point is Mchale is to Garnett what Dominique was to Bird. The separation isn't as great but it's a similar separation in my book.     

McHale was unbelievable, probably a top five PF of all time - but if I'm starting a team, I take Garnett every day.

It's like asking do you want Dominique Wilkins or Larry Bird?

Garnett is an engine, like Bird, Magic and Jordan were. McHale is an all time great, top five PF who will play great D and get you sick offensive numbers but he won't change the culture of your team by his presence and he won't make everyone else around him better - sometimes just by sheer force of personality.

Parish / Mchale / Bird / DJ / Ainge
Perkins / Garnett / Pierce / Allen / Rondo

If you could argue that Garnett = Bird, Pierce = Mchale and Ray Allen = DJ or Parish ( as far as impact) and a young Rondo and Perkins vs. Parish and Ainge were a wash ( parish and Rondo with the edges...)

Which of those teams above do you think would have won the most titles if they were put together at the same ages - in other words KG, Pierce and Ray got together younger, as Bird, McHale and Parish did.

I think the KG lead team. KG is the Bird of our current Celtics era. That separates him from McHale to me. 

   

[mmmmm]

Being able to watch McHale in his prime is a major reason why I ended up falling in love with the Cs, but if I had to pick between him and KG, I'd have to go with KG. Reason being that KG is the man on his team, while McHale was arguably viewed as playing on 'Larry's team'.

Horrible question though, it's like being asked to pick between your two flesh and blood children as to which one is your favorite!

Yep.  Can I just have both, please?   That's a hell of a front court!

[mmmmm]

the thing about McHale is that is post moves were so unique and historic....there was no one in the league with those skills until Olajuwon developed....and there is not a single player in the league today with these skills.


KG may have racked up more stats as an indiviual player to give him an overall edge, but there are many other players in his mold (athletic, jumpshooting bigs), so he is not a 'special' a player in my eyes.

Umm.... you must be closing your eyes on the other end of the court, then.

On the defensive side of the court, KG is arguably one of the 2 most 'special' players ever to play the game.  The other being Russell.

[KCattheStripe]

Joel mcHale is a better actor than Kevin Garnett.

[KeepBigAl]

I love KG and he is a special player, but this statement

KG is arguably one of the 2 most 'special' players ever to play the game.  The other being Russell.

makes me hope your eyes are closed..In a 17 year career, he was only the named the best defensive player in the league exactly...ONCE...so second best all time is homer stuff.


Mchale was a very good defender, and a good outside shooter....KG with his back to the basket is awkward and stiff.

[Edgar]

Lets Play KG at center and McHale at PF

[SHAQATTACK]

Oh...I was a big McHale fan .... Just my opinion.. but when KG was in his prime he was better in everyway except inside scoring.

I would take Bird over both.

[celtsfan84]

the thing about McHale is that is post moves were so unique and historic....there was no one in the league with those skills until Olajuwon developed....and there is not a single player in the league today with these skills.


KG may have racked up more stats as an indiviual player to give him an overall edge, but there are many other players in his mold (athletic, jumpshooting bigs), so he is not a 'special' a player in my eyes.

Umm.... you must be closing your eyes on the other end of the court, then.

On the defensive side of the court, KG is arguably one of the 2 most 'special' players ever to play the game.  The other being Russell.

Ever to play the game for the Celtics you must mean.

Unless we are forgetting Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Dwight, Rodman, Hakeem, and potentially some others that aren't coming to mind.