2012 - CB Draft: "How's My Team Look?"

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Could i get some comments on the knicks?

Just me bro.

I love the Rubio pickup, but I still think Melo and Monta cancels each other out. I think Monta is a better fit. He can score in bunches like Melo, and can be effective off ball, offense wise. Melo still is an Iso guy and he will stop ball movement.

I suggest you acquire either a big man or a spot up shooter for either Melo or Monta, to maximize their abilities. I'd keep Monta if I were you.

My only concern is defense. Outside of Ibaka you have no consistent defender. While Rubio and Ellis can creat TO's, they're more of a gambler defenders, where they'd gamble on steals and either get it or give their man an open lane to go to. Melo's defense is okay at best.

Just me.

[indeedproceed]

The problem with David Lee is that he was most productive in D'Antoni's system, while playing the 5, and while being the best player on the court.

When he's asked to play the 4 against other 4s he loses a lot of his advantages against opponents on offense, mainly his speed. He also has trouble defending 4s (and 5s, but that's mitigated on offense).

It's the same issue Gerald Wallace has playing the 3 instead of the 4, or Gallinari playing the 3. It's not that they can't do it, or aren't good at it, it's just that it mitigates some of their advantages.

He didn't seem to have a problem in The Bay player mostly at 4. He still produced at a high level.

He played substantial minutes at the 4, but he also played a lot at the 5, in an uptempo system. He was next to Udoh and Tyler an awful lot.

Unless I'm missing something really critical, I'm not gonna believe he's a elite level 4 until he does it this season insight Bogut. Played better when not next to Biedrins, and Biedrins is a pretty poor rebounder.

[Who]

(Side note:  Carmelo is a much better 3 pt shooter than his career % indicates.  He has either forced up himself or been forced to take a lot of contested shots against opponents' best wing defenders while teammates stand and watch for most of his career.)

Yeah, Melo is a very good spot up shooter. It's a part of his game that really gets overlooked.

It's a shame he ends up taking so many contested jumpers.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

The problem with David Lee is that he was most productive in D'Antoni's system, while playing the 5, and while being the best player on the court.

When he's asked to play the 4 against other 4s he loses a lot of his advantages against opponents on offense, mainly his speed. He also has trouble defending 4s (and 5s, but that's mitigated on offense).

It's the same issue Gerald Wallace has playing the 3 instead of the 4, or Gallinari playing the 3. It's not that they can't do it, or aren't good at it, it's just that it mitigates some of their advantages.

He didn't seem to have a problem in The Bay player mostly at 4. He still produced at a high level.

He played substantial minutes at the 4, but he also played a lot at the 5, in an uptempo system. He was next to Udoh and Tyler an awful lot.

Unless I'm missing something really critical, I'm not gonna believe he's a elite level 4 until he does it this season insight Bogut. Played better when not next to Biedrins, and Biedrins is a pretty poor rebounder.

I'm not saying he's an elite 4. Im disagreeing to Who, when he said he should be a sixth man. He's a starting PF.

Udoh played center in those times BTW. Udoh gets the 5 when he's inside the court.

[indeedproceed]

Udoh might get listed at the 5, but it's Lee who plays it in effect.

[Kane3387]

The problem with David Lee is that he was most productive in D'Antoni's system, while playing the 5, and while being the best player on the court.

When he's asked to play the 4 against other 4s he loses a lot of his advantages against opponents on offense, mainly his speed. He also has trouble defending 4s (and 5s, but that's mitigated on offense).

It's the same issue Gerald Wallace has playing the 3 instead of the 4, or Gallinari playing the 3. It's not that they can't do it, or aren't good at it, it's just that it mitigates some of their advantages.

He didn't seem to have a problem in The Bay player mostly at 4. He still produced at a high level.

He played substantial minutes at the 4, but he also played a lot at the 5, in an uptempo system. He was next to Udoh and Tyler an awful lot.

Unless I'm missing something really critical, I'm not gonna believe he's a elite level 4 until he does it this season insight Bogut. Played better when not next to Biedrins, and Biedrins is a pretty poor rebounder.

I'm not saying he's an elite 4. Im disagreeing to Who, when he said he should be a sixth man. He's a starting PF.

Udoh played center in those times BTW. Udoh gets the 5 when he's inside the court.

David lee averaged 20.1 and 9.6 With a PER of 19.81. There are only a handful of guys who can claim that. So what's the issue?

[Who]

The problem with David Lee is that he was most productive in D'Antoni's system, while playing the 5, and while being the best player on the court.

When he's asked to play the 4 against other 4s he loses a lot of his advantages against opponents on offense, mainly his speed. He also has trouble defending 4s (and 5s, but that's mitigated on offense).

It's the same issue Gerald Wallace has playing the 3 instead of the 4, or Gallinari playing the 3. It's not that they can't do it, or aren't good at it, it's just that it mitigates some of their advantages.

He didn't seem to have a problem in The Bay player mostly at 4. He still produced at a high level.

He played substantial minutes at the 4, but he also played a lot at the 5, in an uptempo system. He was next to Udoh and Tyler an awful lot.

Unless I'm missing something really critical, I'm not gonna believe he's a elite level 4 until he does it this season insight Bogut. Played better when not next to Biedrins, and Biedrins is a pretty poor rebounder.

I'm not saying he's an elite 4. Im disagreeing to Who, when he said he should be a sixth man. He's a starting PF.

Udoh played center in those times BTW. Udoh gets the 5 when he's inside the court.

David lee averaged 20.1 and 9.6 With a PER of 19.81. There are only a handful of guys who can claim that. So what's the issue?

He is a stat-padder on lousy teams who doesn't get his team enough wins.

[Lucky17]

I may need to send a list to someone, as I may not be around to make the selection at 4.3. Any takers?

[indeedproceed]

The problem with David Lee is that he was most productive in D'Antoni's system, while playing the 5, and while being the best player on the court.

When he's asked to play the 4 against other 4s he loses a lot of his advantages against opponents on offense, mainly his speed. He also has trouble defending 4s (and 5s, but that's mitigated on offense).

It's the same issue Gerald Wallace has playing the 3 instead of the 4, or Gallinari playing the 3. It's not that they can't do it, or aren't good at it, it's just that it mitigates some of their advantages.

He didn't seem to have a problem in The Bay player mostly at 4. He still produced at a high level.

He played substantial minutes at the 4, but he also played a lot at the 5, in an uptempo system. He was next to Udoh and Tyler an awful lot.

Unless I'm missing something really critical, I'm not gonna believe he's a elite level 4 until he does it this season insight Bogut. Played better when not next to Biedrins, and Biedrins is a pretty poor rebounder.

I'm not saying he's an elite 4. Im disagreeing to Who, when he said he should be a sixth man. He's a starting PF.

Udoh played center in those times BTW. Udoh gets the 5 when he's inside the court.

David lee averaged 20.1 and 9.6 With a PER of 19.81. There are only a handful of guys who can claim that. So what's the issue?

He is a stat-padder on lousy teams who doesn't get his team enough wins.

I have a question then: what makes him different than Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Boogie Cousins, John Wall or Stephen Curry (not that it's the whole list, just my list of 'good players on bad teams')

[indeedproceed]

I may need to send a list to someone, as I may not be around to make the selection at 4.3. Any takers?

I'll take it. I got nothing else to do tommorow than make someone else's picks or destroy my squad with impulse trades.

[Who]

The problem with David Lee is that he was most productive in D'Antoni's system, while playing the 5, and while being the best player on the court.

When he's asked to play the 4 against other 4s he loses a lot of his advantages against opponents on offense, mainly his speed. He also has trouble defending 4s (and 5s, but that's mitigated on offense).

It's the same issue Gerald Wallace has playing the 3 instead of the 4, or Gallinari playing the 3. It's not that they can't do it, or aren't good at it, it's just that it mitigates some of their advantages.

He didn't seem to have a problem in The Bay player mostly at 4. He still produced at a high level.

He played substantial minutes at the 4, but he also played a lot at the 5, in an uptempo system. He was next to Udoh and Tyler an awful lot.

Unless I'm missing something really critical, I'm not gonna believe he's a elite level 4 until he does it this season insight Bogut. Played better when not next to Biedrins, and Biedrins is a pretty poor rebounder.

I'm not saying he's an elite 4. Im disagreeing to Who, when he said he should be a sixth man. He's a starting PF.

Udoh played center in those times BTW. Udoh gets the 5 when he's inside the court.

David lee averaged 20.1 and 9.6 With a PER of 19.81. There are only a handful of guys who can claim that. So what's the issue?

He is a stat-padder on lousy teams who doesn't get his team enough wins.

I have a question then: what makes him different than Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Boogie Cousins, John Wall or Stephen Curry (not that it's the whole list, just my list of 'good players on bad teams')

Essentially -- the ability to be effective in terms of offense, defense and rebounding against high quality opposition.

[indeedproceed]

Good point.

[Who]

I have a question then: what makes him different than Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Boogie Cousins, John Wall or Stephen Curry (not that it's the whole list, just my list of 'good players on bad teams')

For the record - here is how I would rate each of those players

• Cousins is a stat padder too. Terrific prospect. I take nothing away from him in terms of potential. But current ability? His impact in the W-L column right now? It's minimal. Too many wasted possessions offensively and failed assignments defensively.
• I rate Irving as a slightly above average starting PG. Irving is a very strong scorer but his non-scoring contributions are too weak and hold him back.
• John Wall's entire game needs work. Below average starter.
• Steph Curry - one of the most effective offensive PGs in the league and capable of being an average defender/rebounder in the right environment with some work. I have #8 amongst PGs.
• Kevin Love - has improved his offensive game considerably since entering the league. Made some inroads defensively too last season. A terrific rebounder. Still a weak defender. One of the more talented offensive PFs in the league. I still view him more as a 2nd option than a franchise star though

David Lee - as a slightly below average starting PF.

A limited defender. A good but unexceptional rebounder who pads his stats on lousy rebounding teams + never boxes out and gives up way too many rebounds due to his lax attitude. A good but unexceptional offensive player. Not quick enough to beat his man off the dribble regularly enough. Not strong enough or skilled enough to beat his man in the post. A solid but unexceptional jump-shot. So a solid but limited shot-creator who is ill-equipped to be a top two offensive option on a title contender. A 15-16ppg scorer on mediocre scoring efficiency (as a PF) on a good team caliber offensive player. 

Was more effective (as a game-changer) back in NY under Isiah Thomas when he came off the bench. A much more aggressive rebounder. Wasn't so focused on his own scoring and making sure "he got his". If you could get him back in that role (with his improved offense) and have him accept being a 13-14ppg and 11rpg guy in 34mpg, he'd be a more positive contributor to his team than the way he is playing currently. Heck, even if you failed to convince him to do that ... he'd still be better able to take advantage of his offensive skill-set because he'd be playing against lesser defensive players more often + you can spot and choose his minutes at PF and C easier to find the more effective matchup for him. He'll give you more effective scoring + better defense/rebounding contributions due to more time spent against lesser quality players.

It's not that David Lee cannot start. He is a good starter.

It is that he offers your team more as a 6th man. Limits his weaknesses, maximizes his strengths. Larger net-positive.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

@Who

David Lee did not pad his stats against lower level competition. He can rebound with the best of them. He gives a lot on the offense, he can post, shoot midrange, pick and roll/pop, crash the boards that other starting PF don't do.

I agree, defense is a concern, which is why he has Bogut (here and in real life) to help him out. But to say that what he can do on offense will limited if he's a starter is (with all due respect Who) is absurd. These stats, he had while starting, against low and high level competition. He's been consistent.

David Lee is not a below average PF. He can do more than Blake Grifin and Serge Ibaka could (yeah I said it) and some consider them top 10 fowards.

For what he produces, if it's better for him to be off the bench then there better be someone who produces more to start over him.

[The Walker Wiggle]

The Dubs

Anthony Davis
Andre Iguodala
Manu Ginobili

Okay, Who just CLOSED THE BOOK on David Lee. (Wow.) And since I spent a half hour updating the trade board instead of picking fights, I expect a couple of responses. Unless we're planning on getting real serious about Jarrett Jack next?