If Ray thinks he'll get more touches

[BballTim]

I wouldn't have minded Ray getting more touches myself.  It's not necessarily shots, it's just being a regular guard and being allowed to dribble the ball up the court once in awhile without your point guard running at you with his hands up and shouting for the ball.  That's annoying in rec ball, I can't imagine how grating that must have been to a future HOF NBA guard.  He did as he was told though, as did Paul. 

I just don't understand why Ray or Paul can't dribble the ball up the floor once in a while.  If nothing happens after they probe the defense, they can always give the ball to Rondo and run a play.  By giving up the ball so early, they're giving up potential offense like a Ray pull up three or Paul attacking the basket against an unformed defense with built up speed.  If Rondo was a great transition passer, I could understand but his decisionmaker in transition is as sloppy as any point in the league.

  Ray's just a poor ballhandler/passer at this point in his career. Paul likes to bring the ball up at times (always has) but it's really not the smartest move. The defense sees him coming with the ball and loads up on him. Just the act of someone else bringing the ball up and passing it to PP gives him more room to operate when he starts his move.

[TheReaLPuba]

Ray's role will be diminished even more in Miami.

He's going to be playing with another Big 3...where two guys (LeBron and Wade) need the ball in their hands to be effective.

Ray will not be happy regulated as a pure spot up shooter...he needs to have plays run for him.

Not starting will definitely bug him but I don't see him playing more than 25 minutes a game and finishing the game will be tough unless the Heat go super small with Wade at the 1.

[Galeto]

I wouldn't have minded Ray getting more touches myself.  It's not necessarily shots, it's just being a regular guard and being allowed to dribble the ball up the court once in awhile without your point guard running at you with his hands up and shouting for the ball.  That's annoying in rec ball, I can't imagine how grating that must have been to a future HOF NBA guard.  He did as he was told though, as did Paul. 

I just don't understand why Ray or Paul can't dribble the ball up the floor once in a while.  If nothing happens after they probe the defense, they can always give the ball to Rondo and run a play.  By giving up the ball so early, they're giving up potential offense like a Ray pull up three or Paul attacking the basket against an unformed defense with built up speed.  If Rondo was a great transition passer, I could understand but his decisionmaker in transition is as sloppy as any point in the league.

  Ray's just a poor ballhandler/passer at this point in his career. Paul likes to bring the ball up at times (always has) but it's really not the smartest move. The defense sees him coming with the ball and loads up on him. Just the act of someone else bringing the ball up and passing it to PP gives him more room to operate when he starts his move.

I think both are fine creators of initial offense after bringing up the ball.  Allen hit a walkup three after bringing up the ball in the playoffs and I could only wonder why Doc took that out of his repertoire when it was a big part of his game for most of his career before coming to the Celtics.  And when Rondo was out and Pierce got the majority of the outlets, things were also fine.  Take game 2 of the Atlanta series.  After a hot start, his shot was off for most of the second and third quarters but he got buckets by getting transition, coast to coast layups.  The three that sealed the game was the walkup variety that Pierce absolutely wouldn't have gotten had Rondo been in the game.

Having multiple outlet options is an easy way to distribute touches as well as giving the defense different looks.  It's not the most difficult skill and both Ray and Pierce have been still capable of it.  I just don't understand why Doc would want to limit multidimensional players.  The offensive results of obsessively outletting to Rondo nearly every time hasn't exactly produced great offensive results like it has with someone like Nash for instance.

[KJ33]

I wouldn't have minded Ray getting more touches myself.  It's not necessarily shots, it's just being a regular guard and being allowed to dribble the ball up the court once in awhile without your point guard running at you with his hands up and shouting for the ball.  That's annoying in rec ball, I can't imagine how grating that must have been to a future HOF NBA guard.  He did as he was told though, as did Paul. 

I just don't understand why Ray or Paul can't dribble the ball up the floor once in a while.  If nothing happens after they probe the defense, they can always give the ball to Rondo and run a play.  By giving up the ball so early, they're giving up potential offense like a Ray pull up three or Paul attacking the basket against an unformed defense with built up speed.  If Rondo was a great transition passer, I could understand but his decisionmaker in transition is as sloppy as any point in the league.

  Ray's just a poor ballhandler/passer at this point in his career. Paul likes to bring the ball up at times (always has) but it's really not the smartest move. The defense sees him coming with the ball and loads up on him. Just the act of someone else bringing the ball up and passing it to PP gives him more room to operate when he starts his move.

I think both are fine creators of initial offense after bringing up the ball.  Allen hit a walkup three after bringing up the ball in the playoffs and I could only wonder why Doc took that out of his repertoire when it was a big part of his game for most of his career before coming to the Celtics.  And when Rondo was out and Pierce got the majority of the outlets, things were also fine.  Take game 2 of the Atlanta series.  After a hot start, his shot was off for most of the second and third quarters but he got buckets by getting transition, coast to coast layups.  The three that sealed the game was the walkup variety that Pierce absolutely wouldn't have gotten had Rondo been in the game.

Having multiple outlet options is an easy way to distribute touches as well as giving the defense different looks.  It's not the most difficult skill and both Ray and Pierce have been still capable of it.  I just don't understand why Doc would want to limit multidimensional players.  The offensive results of obsessively outletting to Rondo nearly every time hasn't exactly produced great offensive results like it has with someone like Nash for instance.

I disagree completely. The 2010 playoffs were Rondo's coming out party. The Big 3 universally agreed that it had become Rondo's team. A big reason was the consistency and trust showed to Rondo by outletting it to him nearly every time. Pierce particularly decreased his silly turnovers and became to understand he could conserve energy and be more efficient  by handing the ball over and then just running to his spot. As his ability to make end to end runs diminished and took more out of him as he got older, he gained trust in Rondo and realized it helped him. Ray seemed a bit more resistant, but he too got better looks at 3s when he used his energy to run to his spot rather than fight the defense as he got slower and slower and had to work harder to get the ball up the court.

When Ray came back from his injury and struggled with his shot, I could see that Rondo did not look for Ray as much behind the line but rather looked for driving lanes to get to the hoop. With the way Ray was shooting and the success Rondo was having, like in Game 2 in Miami, it was a sensible decision. So Ray sometimes refused to give the ball up to mostly disastrous results. He labored when trying to beat the defense off the dribble and usually made poor decisions. A classic case of not recognizing decline in one's game.  I think Ray thinks he is better than he is at this point.

[Galeto]

I wouldn't have minded Ray getting more touches myself.  It's not necessarily shots, it's just being a regular guard and being allowed to dribble the ball up the court once in awhile without your point guard running at you with his hands up and shouting for the ball.  That's annoying in rec ball, I can't imagine how grating that must have been to a future HOF NBA guard.  He did as he was told though, as did Paul. 

I just don't understand why Ray or Paul can't dribble the ball up the floor once in a while.  If nothing happens after they probe the defense, they can always give the ball to Rondo and run a play.  By giving up the ball so early, they're giving up potential offense like a Ray pull up three or Paul attacking the basket against an unformed defense with built up speed.  If Rondo was a great transition passer, I could understand but his decisionmaker in transition is as sloppy as any point in the league.

  Ray's just a poor ballhandler/passer at this point in his career. Paul likes to bring the ball up at times (always has) but it's really not the smartest move. The defense sees him coming with the ball and loads up on him. Just the act of someone else bringing the ball up and passing it to PP gives him more room to operate when he starts his move.

I think both are fine creators of initial offense after bringing up the ball.  Allen hit a walkup three after bringing up the ball in the playoffs and I could only wonder why Doc took that out of his repertoire when it was a big part of his game for most of his career before coming to the Celtics.  And when Rondo was out and Pierce got the majority of the outlets, things were also fine.  Take game 2 of the Atlanta series.  After a hot start, his shot was off for most of the second and third quarters but he got buckets by getting transition, coast to coast layups.  The three that sealed the game was the walkup variety that Pierce absolutely wouldn't have gotten had Rondo been in the game.

Having multiple outlet options is an easy way to distribute touches as well as giving the defense different looks.  It's not the most difficult skill and both Ray and Pierce have been still capable of it.  I just don't understand why Doc would want to limit multidimensional players.  The offensive results of obsessively outletting to Rondo nearly every time hasn't exactly produced great offensive results like it has with someone like Nash for instance.

I disagree completely. The 2010 playoffs were Rondo's coming out party. The Big 3 universally agreed that it had become Rondo's team. A big reason was the consistency and trust showed to Rondo by outletting it to him nearly every time. Pierce particularly decreased his silly turnovers and became to understand he could conserve energy and be more efficient  by handing the ball over and then just running to his spot. As his ability to make end to end runs diminished and took more out of him as he got older, he gained trust in Rondo and realized it helped him. Ray seemed a bit more resistant, but he too got better looks at 3s when he used his energy to run to his spot rather than fight the defense as he got slower and slower and had to work harder to get the ball up the court.

When Ray came back from his injury and struggled with his shot, I could see that Rondo did not look for Ray as much behind the line but rather looked for driving lanes to get to the hoop. With the way Ray was shooting and the success Rondo was having, like in Game 2 in Miami, it was a sensible decision. So Ray sometimes refused to give the ball up to mostly disastrous results. He labored when trying to beat the defense off the dribble and usually made poor decisions. A classic case of not recognizing decline in one's game.  I think Ray thinks he is better than he is at this point.

Who cares whose team it is?  Why can't the objective be to rush the ball up the court as fast as possible, be it by Paul, Ray or Rondo? Or the objective be to easily distribute touches by letting a small other than Rondo bring the ball up once in a while.

There are only two point guards besides Rondo who get nearly ever outlet pass, Chris Paul and Steve Nash.  It changed a bit with Paul after he got to LA because he finally played with some guys who could dribble but in New Orleans, the lack of ballhandlers besides Paul necessitated that setup.  Also because Paul was freaking amazing.  It was sort of the same deal with Nash, along with him being just an amazing decisionmaker with a long history of manning the league's top offense.  The Celtics are the only team who have two wings who have ball skills who outlet the ball, sometimes backwards, to their point nearly 99 percent of the time.  It's just bewildering.  Not even Jason Kidd gets the ball handed to him every time.  It's freaking repetitive and the Celtics have been a bottom third offense the last three seasons.  It doesn't work.

[Celts Fan 92]

I wouldn't have minded Ray getting more touches myself.  It's not necessarily shots, it's just being a regular guard and being allowed to dribble the ball up the court once in awhile without your point guard running at you with his hands up and shouting for the ball.  That's annoying in rec ball, I can't imagine how grating that must have been to a future HOF NBA guard.  He did as he was told though, as did Paul. 

I just don't understand why Ray or Paul can't dribble the ball up the floor once in a while.  If nothing happens after they probe the defense, they can always give the ball to Rondo and run a play.  By giving up the ball so early, they're giving up potential offense like a Ray pull up three or Paul attacking the basket against an unformed defense with built up speed.  If Rondo was a great transition passer, I could understand but his decisionmaker in transition is as sloppy as any point in the league.

Ray Allen should never be allowed to bring the ball up court.  He has become a terrible ball handler in his later years.

I can not even begin to count the number of times I cringed when he had the ball in his hands bringing it up court.  It almost always resulted in a turnover, it seemed.

Pierce, on the other hand, still gets his fair share of opportunities to bring the ball up court.  He is actually still capable of doing so quite well.

co-sign da bolded cant forget da jump passes out of bounds

[wahz]

I have done my share of Allen posts but I promise this is the last one, driven by more comments that he went because he has a better chance at a championship there.

We lost by one game against this team he went to and if you factor in game 2 being stolen, well thats a different story. We beat them six out of ten  after April 1. To our playoff group we have added Bradley, Green, Wilcox, Sullinger, Terry, Melo and lost Ray. We may yet add more.  If we get Lee and add one more big there is no way Miami should be favored over us. So no he does not have a clear advantage going to Mia.

[KJ33]

I wouldn't have minded Ray getting more touches myself.  It's not necessarily shots, it's just being a regular guard and being allowed to dribble the ball up the court once in awhile without your point guard running at you with his hands up and shouting for the ball.  That's annoying in rec ball, I can't imagine how grating that must have been to a future HOF NBA guard.  He did as he was told though, as did Paul. 

I just don't understand why Ray or Paul can't dribble the ball up the floor once in a while.  If nothing happens after they probe the defense, they can always give the ball to Rondo and run a play.  By giving up the ball so early, they're giving up potential offense like a Ray pull up three or Paul attacking the basket against an unformed defense with built up speed.  If Rondo was a great transition passer, I could understand but his decisionmaker in transition is as sloppy as any point in the league.

  Ray's just a poor ballhandler/passer at this point in his career. Paul likes to bring the ball up at times (always has) but it's really not the smartest move. The defense sees him coming with the ball and loads up on him. Just the act of someone else bringing the ball up and passing it to PP gives him more room to operate when he starts his move.

I think both are fine creators of initial offense after bringing up the ball.  Allen hit a walkup three after bringing up the ball in the playoffs and I could only wonder why Doc took that out of his repertoire when it was a big part of his game for most of his career before coming to the Celtics.  And when Rondo was out and Pierce got the majority of the outlets, things were also fine.  Take game 2 of the Atlanta series.  After a hot start, his shot was off for most of the second and third quarters but he got buckets by getting transition, coast to coast layups.  The three that sealed the game was the walkup variety that Pierce absolutely wouldn't have gotten had Rondo been in the game.

Having multiple outlet options is an easy way to distribute touches as well as giving the defense different looks.  It's not the most difficult skill and both Ray and Pierce have been still capable of it.  I just don't understand why Doc would want to limit multidimensional players.  The offensive results of obsessively outletting to Rondo nearly every time hasn't exactly produced great offensive results like it has with someone like Nash for instance.

I disagree completely. The 2010 playoffs were Rondo's coming out party. The Big 3 universally agreed that it had become Rondo's team. A big reason was the consistency and trust showed to Rondo by outletting it to him nearly every time. Pierce particularly decreased his silly turnovers and became to understand he could conserve energy and be more efficient  by handing the ball over and then just running to his spot. As his ability to make end to end runs diminished and took more out of him as he got older, he gained trust in Rondo and realized it helped him. Ray seemed a bit more resistant, but he too got better looks at 3s when he used his energy to run to his spot rather than fight the defense as he got slower and slower and had to work harder to get the ball up the court.

When Ray came back from his injury and struggled with his shot, I could see that Rondo did not look for Ray as much behind the line but rather looked for driving lanes to get to the hoop. With the way Ray was shooting and the success Rondo was having, like in Game 2 in Miami, it was a sensible decision. So Ray sometimes refused to give the ball up to mostly disastrous results. He labored when trying to beat the defense off the dribble and usually made poor decisions. A classic case of not recognizing decline in one's game.  I think Ray thinks he is better than he is at this point.

Who cares whose team it is?  Why can't the objective be to rush the ball up the court as fast as possible, be it by Paul, Ray or Rondo? Or the objective be to easily distribute touches by letting a small other than Rondo bring the ball up once in a while.

There are only two point guards besides Rondo who get nearly ever outlet pass, Chris Paul and Steve Nash.  It changed a bit with Paul after he got to LA because he finally played with some guys who could dribble but in New Orleans, the lack of ballhandlers besides Paul necessitated that setup.  Also because Paul was freaking amazing.  It was sort of the same deal with Nash, along with him being just an amazing decisionmaker with a long history of manning the league's top offense.  The Celtics are the only team who have two wings who have ball skills who outlet the ball, sometimes backwards, to their point nearly 99 percent of the time.  It's just bewildering.  Not even Jason Kidd gets the ball handed to him every time.  It's freaking repetitive and the Celtics have been a bottom third offense the last three seasons.  It doesn't work.

What doesn't work is asking 2 old players, especially one who is 37, to bring the ball up the court against younger quicker defenders

If you watched Ray try to do this at all, this is an inescapable conclusion. Besides not being quick enough to do it, Ray made horrible decisions when he tried.

I would also argue thay Rondo is in the class of Steve Nash and Chris Paul in terms of making good decisions with the basketball. Having Rondo initiate the offense has worked well enough to get to Game 7 of the Finals and within 1 game of another.

[BballTim]

I wouldn't have minded Ray getting more touches myself.  It's not necessarily shots, it's just being a regular guard and being allowed to dribble the ball up the court once in awhile without your point guard running at you with his hands up and shouting for the ball.  That's annoying in rec ball, I can't imagine how grating that must have been to a future HOF NBA guard.  He did as he was told though, as did Paul. 

I just don't understand why Ray or Paul can't dribble the ball up the floor once in a while.  If nothing happens after they probe the defense, they can always give the ball to Rondo and run a play.  By giving up the ball so early, they're giving up potential offense like a Ray pull up three or Paul attacking the basket against an unformed defense with built up speed.  If Rondo was a great transition passer, I could understand but his decisionmaker in transition is as sloppy as any point in the league.

  Ray's just a poor ballhandler/passer at this point in his career. Paul likes to bring the ball up at times (always has) but it's really not the smartest move. The defense sees him coming with the ball and loads up on him. Just the act of someone else bringing the ball up and passing it to PP gives him more room to operate when he starts his move.

I think both are fine creators of initial offense after bringing up the ball.  Allen hit a walkup three after bringing up the ball in the playoffs and I could only wonder why Doc took that out of his repertoire when it was a big part of his game for most of his career before coming to the Celtics.  And when Rondo was out and Pierce got the majority of the outlets, things were also fine.  Take game 2 of the Atlanta series.  After a hot start, his shot was off for most of the second and third quarters but he got buckets by getting transition, coast to coast layups.  The three that sealed the game was the walkup variety that Pierce absolutely wouldn't have gotten had Rondo been in the game.

Having multiple outlet options is an easy way to distribute touches as well as giving the defense different looks.  It's not the most difficult skill and both Ray and Pierce have been still capable of it.  I just don't understand why Doc would want to limit multidimensional players.  The offensive results of obsessively outletting to Rondo nearly every time hasn't exactly produced great offensive results like it has with someone like Nash for instance.

  You remember Ray hitting a three when he walked the ball up court, fine. I wonder whether you missed the plays where Ray turned it over trying to run the break.

[TheReaLPuba]

A healthy Ray Allen is still to be feared.

The problem is he's getting older and coming off surgery so his health is always going to be questioned.

Him joining the Heat is easily a hired-gun type of move.

Sure he'll have a possible better chance at winning more titles but he won't ever have the same impact as winning one as he had when he won it in 2008.

[rayallen1934]

I wouldn't have minded Ray getting more touches myself.  It's not necessarily shots, it's just being a regular guard and being allowed to dribble the ball up the court once in awhile without your point guard running at you with his hands up and shouting for the ball.  That's annoying in rec ball, I can't imagine how grating that must have been to a future HOF NBA guard.  He did as he was told though, as did Paul. 

I just don't understand why Ray or Paul can't dribble the ball up the floor once in a while.  If nothing happens after they probe the defense, they can always give the ball to Rondo and run a play.  By giving up the ball so early, they're giving up potential offense like a Ray pull up three or Paul attacking the basket against an unformed defense with built up speed.  If Rondo was a great transition passer, I could understand but his decisionmaker in transition is as sloppy as any point in the league.

  Ray's just a poor ballhandler/passer at this point in his career. Paul likes to bring the ball up at times (always has) but it's really not the smartest move. The defense sees him coming with the ball and loads up on him. Just the act of someone else bringing the ball up and passing it to PP gives him more room to operate when he starts his move.

I think both are fine creators of initial offense after bringing up the ball.  Allen hit a walkup three after bringing up the ball in the playoffs and I could only wonder why Doc took that out of his repertoire when it was a big part of his game for most of his career before coming to the Celtics.  And when Rondo was out and Pierce got the majority of the outlets, things were also fine.  Take game 2 of the Atlanta series.  After a hot start, his shot was off for most of the second and third quarters but he got buckets by getting transition, coast to coast layups.  The three that sealed the game was the walkup variety that Pierce absolutely wouldn't have gotten had Rondo been in the game.

Having multiple outlet options is an easy way to distribute touches as well as giving the defense different looks.  It's not the most difficult skill and both Ray and Pierce have been still capable of it.  I just don't understand why Doc would want to limit multidimensional players.  The offensive results of obsessively outletting to Rondo nearly every time hasn't exactly produced great offensive results like it has with someone like Nash for instance.

  You remember Ray hitting a three when he walked the ball up court, fine. I wonder whether you missed the plays where Ray turned it over trying to run the break.

your overexaggerating on Ray's turnovers

Rondo makes way more boneheaded turnovers where you just shake your head


and dont get me started on the missed layups

nobody misses more easy layups then Rondo

[rav123]

...he won't ever have the same impact as winning one as he had when he won it in 2008.

But in Miami in 2012-13, he'll probably have more impact than he would have in Boston this coming season.

Should winning be prized above all else, even if you were not a contributor on the team (as some on this board seem to  suggest - btw, I'm not only referring to you, TheReaLPuba; it's just that your comment was in easy reach)?

Because in that case, shouldn't one maximise his chances of winning by teaming up with other superstars...?

We lost by one game against this team he went to and if you factor in game 2 being stolen, well thats a different story...So no he does not have a clear advantage going to Mia.

They didn't have Bosh, a key player, for most of the series. In games Bosh didn't play, the series was 2-2, with Miami outscoring us 1.5 points each game on average; with Bosh, they won 2-1, taking each game by 9.33 points. Sure, we didn't have Jeff Green or Bradley or Wilcox, and Pierce and Allen were injured. So were Miller, Jones and others (can't remember) on their side.

More importantly, 2 of our 3 best players (Pierce, KG) will very likely decline this year, while 2 of their three best (LeBron, Bosh) should only improve.

[Fleischmann7]

okey-dokey

[HowardAvellino]

...he won't ever have the same impact as winning one as he had when he won it in 2008.

But in Miami in 2012-13, he'll probably have more impact than he would have in Boston this coming season.

You could be right, but I don't see it.  Can you elaborate?

To me, first of all, going to a team which just won a championship, and isn't losing any significant players, is by definition the most low-impact situation there can be, for any player.

It's particularly so in this case.  The Heat are very strong at the 2, 3, and 4.  But Bosh plays the 5 a lot, and LeBron plays 4 and 1.  The only position Dwyane Wade can really play is the 2.  And the same is true for Ray Allen.

Yeah, they've both been used in three-guard sets, and obviously they can be used in three-guard sets together.  You could also use Ray at the 2, with LeBron as pg on offense and sf on defense, and Wade playing the opposite roles.  But that's getting awfully creative, and I'm not sure Eric Spoelstra is going to find Ray awesome enough that he juggles his lineup like that.

I think Ray would have had a much bigger impact on the Celtics this season.

[MBz]

I think he could actually get a lot more touches.  Miami is a much better passing team then us.  If he plays enough minutes to get those touches will be the question.