Author Topic: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship  (Read 23641 times)

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Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2012, 11:13:30 AM »

Offline 33_Larry Legend_33

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Yeah, I'm justifying that I'll take that ass of a player who's a top 3 point guard in this league over a guy who's on the tail end of his career.  So I'm going to side with Rondo on this.  He's a pain, yes, but he makes everyone better...  Without Rondo, we don't stand a chance.  Without Ray, we'll survive.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2012, 11:15:18 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Yeah, I'm justifying that I'll take that ass of a player who's a top 3 point guard in this league over a guy who's on the tail end of his career.  So I'm going to side with Rondo on this.  He's a pain, yes, but he makes everyone better...  Without Rondo, we don't stand a chance.  Without Ray, we'll survive.

Other than no one is arguing who they rather have on the team.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2012, 11:21:53 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Yeah, I'm justifying that I'll take that ass of a player who's a top 3 point guard in this league over a guy who's on the tail end of his career.  So I'm going to side with Rondo on this.  He's a pain, yes, but he makes everyone better...  Without Rondo, we don't stand a chance.  Without Ray, we'll survive.
That's fine.  I'd rather have rondo than ray too.  But I'm not going to defend rondo in this case because I think he is a better player because ultimately, this is about rondo AND ray or just rondo.  Not rondo OR ray.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2012, 11:23:20 AM »

Offline RJ87

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I wonder how much of the tension is attributed to Rondo not being shy about his preference of Avery Bradley in the starting lineup? Paul and KG avoided the topic, but Rondo said something along the lines of liking how Avery has the legs to get out and run with him and his cutting to the basket brings a new dimension to the offense. If Rondo was open in public, there's little doubt he open about behind closed doors.

In all honesty though, that's exactly what I want from our key players. If something is helping the team, speak up. I lost some respect for Ray this year, I think he could have handled becoming the 6th man far more gracefully than he did. That's why I like the Jason Terry signing - he fully embraces coming off of the bench and puts the team above his ego.

Find me somewhere that implicates Ray not taking on that role gracefully? Seriously, these are top level competitors, of course there's going to be some discontent at losing a starting job, but at the end of the day Ray took it and played it through without causing trouble.

I have a feeling that people would be content with a roster full of losers.
Has anyone paid attention to rondo off the court (in interviews and other off court instances)?  The  seems like a real pain in the butt to deal with.  If he were my teammate, rondo would drive me nuts too.  I've seen enough to be sure of that.

This is not news.  Everyone on the team has already alluded to it and I believe it is part of the reason he has been on the block.  Looks like the others have learned to deal with it but not ray.

Yes, Rondo is irritating, but Ray seems to take himself way too seriously, with an overblown and fragile ego.  Still, according to the report in the Herald today, it was on-court issues that were the final deal-breaker. 

I can only imagine Rondo tired of having to wait all day for a slower Ray to get free and that Ray blamed Rondo rather than himself for not subsequently getting more shots.
Has anyone ever heard of a teammate not named rondo not get along with Ray?  Not me.  On the other hand, just about every teammate has pointed to how difficult rondo is.  So no, this is more on rondo than ray. 

Budweiser, do you consider Jason Terry a loser because he embraces coming off the bench? In the end Ray came off the bench but not after doing a really bad job of hiding his anger with it. Even Doc admitted at the end of the season that Ray wasn't happy becoming a 6th man.

And yes, we all know Rondo can be prickly. But one thing he's done well over the last 5 yrs is distribute touches to 3 Hall of Famers. We often hear praise about his ability to find the open man, to get guys looks exactly where they're most effective. You can all stay in denial if you want, but over the last season or so Ray has had more issues getting separation coming off screens. Go and watch some game film of Rondo standing at the 3 point line, dribbling out the clock - its always because he's waiting for Ray to come off screens and get open. So of course, when Ray doesn't do that, it hurts the offensive possession.

As Charles Barkley likes to say, "father time is undefeated". Ray HAS lost a step. He's still a great shooter, but he can't create the separation coming off of screens as well as he once did.
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Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2012, 11:40:16 AM »

Offline BballTim

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There's absolutely no honest debating the fact that we struggled OFTEN last year with poor ball movement in the halfcourt sets.

None whatsoever.

Sadly, Ray's assumed grievances on and off the court with Rondo are legit. Ball movement aside, I've mentioned quite often how Rondo has a bit of a problem finding guys on the perimeter, particularly with well timed passes. So I can see how it can frustrate someone like Ray who's running around with his old legs trying to get open, and when he does the opportunity is often missed. It happens often in transition too when Ray spots up for an in-rhythm 3 but doesn't get the ball (though it happens with Pierce too albeit less often).


  I think there's a certain amount of friction on the court which might just be the egos of the players. Sometimes Rondo doesn't pass the ball to PP and RA when they want him to, sometimes they're unwilling to pass the ball to Rondo when they should. Some times Rondo and Paul will be on the perimeter and Rondo will get the ball to Paul. Whatever play was drawn up will fail and Rondo will call for the ball back, and Paul will look him off and end up doing something stupid with the ball. Similarly, Ray will try and run a fast break when Rondo wants the ball and more likely than not end up turning the ball over.

  But having said that, Rondo's probably better at finding players on the perimeter with well placed, well timed passes than anyone else in the league. He doesn't hit Ray every time but Ray sometimes looks more open than he is, especially off a screen when his back is to the basket.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2012, 11:45:54 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Woj reports no new news here.

correct. this has been known for a while now.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2012, 11:56:33 AM »

Offline snively

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I'd imagine Ray's desire to win championships (Miami would be the favors), play big minutes and have that ego stroked have a lot more to do with this free agency tour than his rocky relationship with Rondo. 

Let's hope money talks in this case - I'm tired of Miami getting discounts on such good players.
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Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2012, 11:58:57 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I wonder how much of the tension is attributed to Rondo not being shy about his preference of Avery Bradley in the starting lineup? Paul and KG avoided the topic, but Rondo said something along the lines of liking how Avery has the legs to get out and run with him and his cutting to the basket brings a new dimension to the offense. If Rondo was open in public, there's little doubt he open about behind closed doors.

In all honesty though, that's exactly what I want from our key players. If something is helping the team, speak up. I lost some respect for Ray this year, I think he could have handled becoming the 6th man far more gracefully than he did. That's why I like the Jason Terry signing - he fully embraces coming off of the bench and puts the team above his ego.

Find me somewhere that implicates Ray not taking on that role gracefully? Seriously, these are top level competitors, of course there's going to be some discontent at losing a starting job, but at the end of the day Ray took it and played it through without causing trouble.

I have a feeling that people would be content with a roster full of losers.
Has anyone paid attention to rondo off the court (in interviews and other off court instances)?  The  seems like a real pain in the butt to deal with.  If he were my teammate, rondo would drive me nuts too.  I've seen enough to be sure of that.

This is not news.  Everyone on the team has already alluded to it and I believe it is part of the reason he has been on the block.  Looks like the others have learned to deal with it but not ray.

Yes, Rondo is irritating, but Ray seems to take himself way too seriously, with an overblown and fragile ego.  Still, according to the report in the Herald today, it was on-court issues that were the final deal-breaker. 

I can only imagine Rondo tired of having to wait all day for a slower Ray to get free and that Ray blamed Rondo rather than himself for not subsequently getting more shots.
Has anyone ever heard of a teammate not named rondo not get along with Ray?  Not me.  On the other hand, just about every teammate has pointed to how difficult rondo is.  So no, this is more on rondo than ray. 

Budweiser, do you consider Jason Terry a loser because he embraces coming off the bench? In the end Ray came off the bench but not after doing a really bad job of hiding his anger with it. Even Doc admitted at the end of the season that Ray wasn't happy becoming a 6th man.

No, it doesn't mean that. But these guys are competitors, and taking offense to someone from Ray's caliber not embracing a 6th man role is a bit foolish. At times all you can ask is for them to bite the bullet for the sake of the team, but to be "happy" about it, is quite unfair to them. It was that competitive nature that has made these types of players into future hall of famers. That said, while Ray was not happy with the change of roles, he didn't make too much of a fuss about it. He did the sacrifice for the team without causing discord.

There are all sort of players around the league, with different roles, but I'm personally not going to go and look to invest a huge amount of money on a player who's just going to be happy about losing his starting job after 16 years in the league, further more, late in a season which you have been playing well; to a 2nd year player at that who only has a few good games to his name.

Different circumstances and all that. Jason Terry started the season as the 6th man from the start of a season, he had time to prepare for it, and one of the main components of that decision was that they had Barea as the starting PG, and he was very  small which made him playing along side Terry problematic. It wasn't from a perceived deteriorating game, like how it must have felt to Ray.

Quote
And yes, we all know Rondo can be prickly. But one thing he's done well over the last 5 yrs is distribute touches to 3 Hall of Famers. We often hear praise about his ability to find the open man, to get guys looks exactly where they're most effective. You can all stay in denial if you want, but over the last season or so Ray has had more issues getting separation coming off screens. Go and watch some game film of Rondo standing at the 3 point line, dribbling out the clock - its always because he's waiting for Ray to come off screens and get open. So of course, when Ray doesn't do that, it hurts the offensive possession.

I know Rondo has a difficult job to do, but it's his job to do. The thing is though, Rondo standing at the 3 point line dribbling out the clock to wait for Ray to com off screens I find it to be a Rondo problem rather than a Ray problem. Rondo needs to do quicker decisions. If the Ray option is not there, it isn't there so you move to the next target, you don't wait until it's 10 seconds left in the shot clock to do your next move.

Also, the Rondo dribbling in the 3-point line is not a waiting for Ray thing, it occurs in numerous different plays.

The fact still remains, that Ray does get himself open quite frequently without getting the obvious pass, and I don't know why that is. My theory is that when Ray gets open, Rondo likes to have a look-a-round to see what else is there, and when he sees nothing's there and finally gives the ball to Ray, it's a bit too late. Sometimes Rondo  does this and does find a good option to a cutter, but many times he doesn't, which wastes a good opportunity to one of the best 3-point shooters in the game.

It's a tough job, but it's up to Rondo to do it and find the balance. Interesting enough, when Rondo pushes the ball (which sadly is not as often as one would like), the ball movement improves and Ray often gets the touches in the appropriate manner.

Quote
As Charles Barkley likes to say, "father time is undefeated". Ray HAS lost a step. He's still a great shooter, but he can't create the separation coming off of screens as well as he once did.

It's quite easy to say when all the recent evidence is of a Ray who was injured. Ray Allen had a great season last year, one of his best shooting wise while he was healthy. In fact, he was the only one of the big 3 who actually showed up to play at the start of the season, and at a high level at that. Also, the first to be sacrificed. Which is fine by me, as I actually liked him coming of the bench, but I'm not going to hold it against him if he wasn't all jolly about it.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2012, 12:05:58 PM »

Offline wahz

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Woj reports no new news here.

Yep, Jackie M. was among those with credibility who reported this months ago.  However, after Woj's stale reporting yesterday that Ray and Rondo never carried their off-court tensions onto the court, here comes the Boston Herald with new reports that indeed Ray was bothered by it on-court too.  Didn't we just know he didn't like how few shots he got last year?  Although not attributed to Ray's agent, it comes in a story in which the agent is a quoted source.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20220704cs_take_shot_with_terry_but_say_theyre_still_interested_in_allen/srvc=home&position=6

Certainly sounds like Ray is gone.  That could leave more money for Danny to give to Bass, but I'm thinking he'll use the extra to bring Krstic back instead.  Then Wilcox or Stiemer could get the BAE.  I'd think this would increase the chances of Moore being able to stick with a competent showing in summer league.


If Ray leaves Im predicting he is going to soon realize Rondo was getting him the ball exactly where he needed it and his production will drop off dramatically. I hope he stays though.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2012, 12:16:37 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Well, first off, this article isn't even remotely "new" news.  I don't quite get why writers feel compelled to keep rehashing this story.  Is there really nothing else to write about?

As far as the acrimony bewtween Ray and Rondo, I remain confused as to why so many people seem to attribute either all, or at least a majority of, the blame to Rondo.  It "takes two to tango".  We constantly hear about this rocky relationship between Ray and Rondo, but, we don't ever hear about these type of issues with Rondo and KG, Pierce or any other player's of notoriety.  At least not to anywhere near the degree we have between Ray and Rondo.

To me, this says as much about Ray's personality as it does Rondo's.  Why is Ray not able to get along with Rondo, but others' are?  Maybe Ray rubs Rondo the wrong way, and should be the one to make a better effort to repair the relationship.  I suspect this is an entirely two-way street, where both players could be doing more to breach the disconnect.

Or, maybe this is just being completely over-blown by the media for sensationalist headlines.  It's not as if the media wouldn't stoop to such depths, all for the sake of a headline.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2012, 12:21:56 PM »

Offline snively

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I wonder how much of the tension is attributed to Rondo not being shy about his preference of Avery Bradley in the starting lineup? Paul and KG avoided the topic, but Rondo said something along the lines of liking how Avery has the legs to get out and run with him and his cutting to the basket brings a new dimension to the offense. If Rondo was open in public, there's little doubt he open about behind closed doors.

In all honesty though, that's exactly what I want from our key players. If something is helping the team, speak up. I lost some respect for Ray this year, I think he could have handled becoming the 6th man far more gracefully than he did. That's why I like the Jason Terry signing - he fully embraces coming off of the bench and puts the team above his ego.

Find me somewhere that implicates Ray not taking on that role gracefully? Seriously, these are top level competitors, of course there's going to be some discontent at losing a starting job, but at the end of the day Ray took it and played it through without causing trouble.

I have a feeling that people would be content with a roster full of losers.
Has anyone paid attention to rondo off the court (in interviews and other off court instances)?  The  seems like a real pain in the butt to deal with.  If he were my teammate, rondo would drive me nuts too.  I've seen enough to be sure of that.

This is not news.  Everyone on the team has already alluded to it and I believe it is part of the reason he has been on the block.  Looks like the others have learned to deal with it but not ray.

Yes, Rondo is irritating, but Ray seems to take himself way too seriously, with an overblown and fragile ego.  Still, according to the report in the Herald today, it was on-court issues that were the final deal-breaker. 

I can only imagine Rondo tired of having to wait all day for a slower Ray to get free and that Ray blamed Rondo rather than himself for not subsequently getting more shots.
Has anyone ever heard of a teammate not named rondo not get along with Ray?  Not me.  On the other hand, just about every teammate has pointed to how difficult rondo is.  So no, this is more on rondo than ray. 

Budweiser, do you consider Jason Terry a loser because he embraces coming off the bench? In the end Ray came off the bench but not after doing a really bad job of hiding his anger with it. Even Doc admitted at the end of the season that Ray wasn't happy becoming a 6th man.

No, it doesn't mean that. But these guys are competitors, and taking offense to someone from Ray's caliber not embracing a 6th man role is a bit foolish. At times all you can ask is for them to bite the bullet for the sake of the team, but to be "happy" about it, is quite unfair to them. It was that competitive nature that has made these types of players into future hall of famers. That said, while Ray was not happy with the change of roles, he didn't make too much of a fuss about it. He did the sacrifice for the team without causing discord.

There are all sort of players around the league, with different roles, but I'm personally not going to go and look to invest a huge amount of money on a player who's just going to be happy about losing his starting job after 16 years in the league, further more, late in a season which you have been playing well; to a 2nd year player at that who only has a few good games to his name.

Different circumstances and all that. Jason Terry started the season as the 6th man from the start of a season, he had time to prepare for it, and one of the main components of that decision was that they had Barea as the starting PG, and he was very  small which made him playing along side Terry problematic. It wasn't from a perceived deteriorating game, like how it must have felt to Ray.

Quote
And yes, we all know Rondo can be prickly. But one thing he's done well over the last 5 yrs is distribute touches to 3 Hall of Famers. We often hear praise about his ability to find the open man, to get guys looks exactly where they're most effective. You can all stay in denial if you want, but over the last season or so Ray has had more issues getting separation coming off screens. Go and watch some game film of Rondo standing at the 3 point line, dribbling out the clock - its always because he's waiting for Ray to come off screens and get open. So of course, when Ray doesn't do that, it hurts the offensive possession.

I know Rondo has a difficult job to do, but it's his job to do. The thing is though, Rondo standing at the 3 point line dribbling out the clock to wait for Ray to com off screens I find it to be a Rondo problem rather than a Ray problem. Rondo needs to do quicker decisions. If the Ray option is not there, it isn't there so you move to the next target, you don't wait until it's 10 seconds left in the shot clock to do your next move.

Also, the Rondo dribbling in the 3-point line is not a waiting for Ray thing, it occurs in numerous different plays.

The fact still remains, that Ray does get himself open quite frequently without getting the obvious pass, and I don't know why that is. My theory is that when Ray gets open, Rondo likes to have a look-a-round to see what else is there, and when he sees nothing's there and finally gives the ball to Ray, it's a bit too late. Sometimes Rondo  does this and does find a good option to a cutter, but many times he doesn't, which wastes a good opportunity to one of the best 3-point shooters in the game.

It's a tough job, but it's up to Rondo to do it and find the balance. Interesting enough, when Rondo pushes the ball (which sadly is not as often as one would like), the ball movement improves and Ray often gets the touches in the appropriate manner.

Quote
As Charles Barkley likes to say, "father time is undefeated". Ray HAS lost a step. He's still a great shooter, but he can't create the separation coming off of screens as well as he once did.

It's quite easy to say when all the recent evidence is of a Ray who was injured. Ray Allen had a great season last year, one of his best shooting wise while he was healthy. In fact, he was the only one of the big 3 who actually showed up to play at the start of the season, and at a high level at that. Also, the first to be sacrificed. Which is fine by me, as I actually liked him coming of the bench, but I'm not going to hold it against him if he wasn't all jolly about it.

Your analysis is usually very sound Budweiser, but your standards for Rondo have always been excessively high. 
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Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2012, 12:23:55 PM »

Offline rayallen1934

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All of a sudden Ray Allen has become the angry bad guy


And Rondo is the good guy


Ive seen it all

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2012, 12:26:08 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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All of a sudden Ray Allen has become the angry bad guy


And Rondo is the good guy


Ive seen it all

I'm sure you have " Ray Allen" 1934.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2012, 12:29:02 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote
As Charles Barkley likes to say, "father time is undefeated". Ray HAS lost a step. He's still a great shooter, but he can't create the separation coming off of screens as well as he once did.

It's quite easy to say when all the recent evidence is of a Ray who was injured. Ray Allen had a great season last year, one of his best shooting wise while he was healthy. In fact, he was the only one of the big 3 who actually showed up to play at the start of the season, and at a high level at that. Also, the first to be sacrificed. Which is fine by me, as I actually liked him coming of the bench, but I'm not going to hold it against him if he wasn't all jolly about it.

  It's true Ray was the only member of the big three to show up and play well at the beginning of the season. But Ray having trouble getting seperation has been going on for a while, not just this year. People complain about the "Ray running through multiple screens to get open" play taking too long to run because it actually does take much more time for Ray to run it than it used to.

Re: Wojnarowski: Ray and Rondo don't have a great relationship
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2012, 12:34:16 PM »

Offline rayallen1934

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Quote
As Charles Barkley likes to say, "father time is undefeated". Ray HAS lost a step. He's still a great shooter, but he can't create the separation coming off of screens as well as he once did.

It's quite easy to say when all the recent evidence is of a Ray who was injured. Ray Allen had a great season last year, one of his best shooting wise while he was healthy. In fact, he was the only one of the big 3 who actually showed up to play at the start of the season, and at a high level at that. Also, the first to be sacrificed. Which is fine by me, as I actually liked him coming of the bench, but I'm not going to hold it against him if he wasn't all jolly about it.

  It's true Ray was the only member of the big three to show up and play well at the beginning of the season. But Ray having trouble getting seperation has been going on for a while, not just this year. People complain about the "Ray running through multiple screens to get open" play taking too long to run because it actually does take much more time for Ray to run it than it used to.

WHo every runs those plays will have to take time to get through screeens. Why do people not see that.

Have you guys every played for a team?

The problem is that Ray Allen cannot get by his man like he once did once he gets the ball after the screens , because that is the biggest problem.

That play opens up so much for the Celtics, including a cutting Garnett, the double team is always happenning on those screens and then its a simple bounce pass to Garnett or whoever..


Always people forget how WIDE OPEN Rondo is on those screen plays where Ray recieves the ball and passes it back, but Rondo still has problems wanting to shoot that open shot.


Theres more to those screen plays than Ray Allen's lost step, but nobody wants to go in to it, they just went to say hes SLOW.