Rivers: We're going to get Jeff, [Ray] will be back.

[ssspence]

Thursday night Doc said 'Kg is coming back. I havent spoken to him but he's coming back.' KG was back on Saturday.

If he says we're likely getting Ray and Green, we're likely getting Ray and Green.

Still wonder if the 'why wouldn't they come back' talk from Doc is designed to make them look a little like chumps if they leave, therefore helping sway them to sign with Boston...

[Celtics18]

I think Ray is staying put, and if the kicker is starting, then I think that's an easy solution.

Ray is a vet, he's earned a starting spot, and you can play Avery (for now) just as many minutes off the bench.

The whole "starting" moniker is just a head thing anyway, and if it keeps Ray here, no biggie.

Minutes are minutes, whether you're on the floor for the tip-off or not ... give your vet the respect, and just adjust the minutes.

As far as Green is concerned, he's still an unproven quantity in Boston ... he was mediocre before the injury at best, and he's got a ways to go before he's got a solid spot, IMHO.

An amazing talent and incredible athlete, but his attitude and work-ethic have yet to reach a similar level ... he's got what it takes physically, but he has not yet made the most of his abilities.

We'll see.

I disagree about Ray.  I think our team is better with Bradley starting and Ray coming off the bench to give the second unit a much needed scoring boost.  

Ray is still an important part of our team, and Danny showed that by offering him a contract worth more than the other top competitors for his services have been willing or able to offer.  

But, we can't afford to make a guarantee of being a starter part of the package.  If Ray can't accept that, I say; "thank you for your service, Ray, but I guess it's time to move on."

Hopefully, he comes to his senses and realizes that this is where he belongs and that while he's here his job will be to do whatever Doc asks him to do, whether that's starting or coming off the bench.  

[Fafnir]

Thursday night Doc said 'Kg is coming back. I havent spoken to him but he's coming back.' KG was back on Saturday.

If he says we're likely getting Ray and Green, we're likely getting Ray and Green.

Still wonder if the 'why wouldn't they come back' talk from Doc is designed to make them look a little like chumps if they leave, therefore helping sway them to sign with Boston...

That's definitely part of it, putting pressure on them to stay with the organization since they're putting it out there their value and that C's are willing to pay.

[Brendan]

Jeff Green and Marvin Williams are the same age, except Marvin has two more years of NBA experience. I would probably trade Jeff Green straight up for Marvin Williams right now.

From a number stand point there are fairly even through their first four years: http://bkref.com/tiny/9xVTA

This is comparing Marvin ages 19 - 22 versus Jeff Green 21 - 24. Comparing just their age 24 seasons doesn't change much: http://bkref.com/tiny/ZvMYQ

Some obvious questions:
1. For Marvin being the guy drafted ahead of Chris Paul and Derron Williams, would he better elsewhere?

2. For Marvin has he reached his full potential as a 7 year guy in NBA? Or is he still getting better as a 25 year old?

3. For Green will he better playing less PF where he started next to Durant?

4. For Green how will he adjust to coming off the bench?

5. For Green how will he return from heart surgery?


In terms of picks, both were high lottery picks and underperformed their selection spot IMO. I'm not a super huge fan of either guy, but I think either guy would be a good swing forward on the C's - I'd even be interested in starting them and moving Pierce to the bench if it keeps Pierce's minutes down and effectiveness up.

I like Green on a one year make good deal, maybe with a player option, not on a four year deal. He's the guy Danny has avoided overpaying for the last 5 years, let's hope that doesn't change now.

[theswitch]

Here's Broussard on Green:

"His agent, David Falk, told me Boston is the first, second and third option for Jeff Green."

Like it or not, Green will be in Green next year. All that remains to be seen is the dollars and years involved, but Danny has been pretty fair about that - to both the team and the player.

[Bahku]

I think Ray is staying put, and if the kicker is starting, then I think that's an easy solution.

Ray is a vet, he's earned a starting spot, and you can play Avery (for now) just as many minutes off the bench.

The whole "starting" moniker is just a head thing anyway, and if it keeps Ray here, no biggie.

Minutes are minutes, whether you're on the floor for the tip-off or not ... give your vet the respect, and just adjust the minutes.

As far as Green is concerned, he's still an unproven quantity in Boston ... he was mediocre before the injury at best, and he's got a ways to go before he's got a solid spot, IMHO.

An amazing talent and incredible athlete, but his attitude and work-ethic have yet to reach a similar level ... he's got what it takes physically, but he has not yet made the most of his abilities.

We'll see.

I disagree about Ray.  I think our team is better with Bradley starting and Ray coming off the bench to give the second unit a much needed scoring boost.  

Ray is still an important part of our team, and Danny showed that by offering him a contract worth more than the other top competitors for his services have been willing or able to offer.  

But, we can't afford to make a guarantee of being a starter part of the package.  If Ray can't accept that, I say; "thank you for your service, Ray, but I guess it's time to move on."

Hopefully, he comes to his senses and realizes that this is where he belongs and that while he's here his job will be to do whatever Doc asks him to do, whether that's starting or coming off the bench.  

Ray's better as a starter, period, and Bradley's numbers are pretty consistent either way, as long as his minutes are production-worthy.

Ray's an intergral part of the team and still has plenty of mileage, (and a better option right now than Terry, IMO), so you cater to what serves the team best.

If Ray's numbers are better as a starter, and Avery's aren't affected by much other than time on the floor, then start Ray and give Bradley the minutes he needs.

"Starter" is just a title, but one that Ray has earned, so if it benefits him to have that title, (and has little effect on AB either way), then it makes no sense not to give it to him.

KG and Paul also prefer Ray starting, and that chemistry issue is a big one, at least until Paul and Kevin retire. Avery will produce well either way, just keep his minutes up.

[MBunge]

I think Ray is staying put, and if the kicker is starting, then I think that's an easy solution.

Ray is a vet, he's earned a starting spot, and you can play Avery (for now) just as many minutes off the bench.

The whole "starting" moniker is just a head thing anyway, and if it keeps Ray here, no biggie.

Minutes are minutes, whether you're on the floor for the tip-off or not ... give your vet the respect, and just adjust the minutes.

As far as Green is concerned, he's still an unproven quantity in Boston ... he was mediocre before the injury at best, and he's got a ways to go before he's got a solid spot, IMHO.

An amazing talent and incredible athlete, but his attitude and work-ethic have yet to reach a similar level ... he's got what it takes physically, but he has not yet made the most of his abilities.

We'll see.

I disagree about Ray.  I think our team is better with Bradley starting and Ray coming off the bench to give the second unit a much needed scoring boost.  

Ray is still an important part of our team, and Danny showed that by offering him a contract worth more than the other top competitors for his services have been willing or able to offer.  

But, we can't afford to make a guarantee of being a starter part of the package.  If Ray can't accept that, I say; "thank you for your service, Ray, but I guess it's time to move on."

Hopefully, he comes to his senses and realizes that this is where he belongs and that while he's here his job will be to do whatever Doc asks him to do, whether that's starting or coming off the bench.  

Ray's better as a starter, period, and Bradley's numbers are pretty consistent either way, as long as his minutes are production-worthy.

Ray's an intergral part of the team and still has plenty of mileage, (and a better option right now than Terry, IMO), so you cater to what serves the team best.

If Ray's numbers are better as a starter, and Avery's aren't affected by much other than time on the floor, then start Ray and give Bradley the minutes he needs.

"Starter" is just a title, but one that Ray has earned, so if it benefits him to have that title, (and has little effect on AB either way), then it makes no sense not to give it to him.

KG and Paul also prefer Ray starting, and that chemistry issue is a big one, at least until Paul and Kevin retire. Avery will produce well either way, just keep his minutes up.

Ray is going to be 37 next season.  No offseason operation is going to change that.

Mike

[TheTruthFot18]

TBH Ray has more to offer to other teams as a gunner off the bench for a decent price. I thought bringing back Green was a bigger priority just to take up Paul and KG minutes and add youth, athleticism, someone who can (kinda at least) create their own shot. I see him back for 5 mil and Ray taking the 2/year 12 mil option. WHile no one can match ray, he is slightly more replaceable skills wise, but coming off an injury plagued late season, i'm confident he'll be worth bringing back

[Bahku]

I think Ray is staying put, and if the kicker is starting, then I think that's an easy solution.

Ray is a vet, he's earned a starting spot, and you can play Avery (for now) just as many minutes off the bench.

The whole "starting" moniker is just a head thing anyway, and if it keeps Ray here, no biggie.

Minutes are minutes, whether you're on the floor for the tip-off or not ... give your vet the respect, and just adjust the minutes.

As far as Green is concerned, he's still an unproven quantity in Boston ... he was mediocre before the injury at best, and he's got a ways to go before he's got a solid spot, IMHO.

An amazing talent and incredible athlete, but his attitude and work-ethic have yet to reach a similar level ... he's got what it takes physically, but he has not yet made the most of his abilities.

We'll see.

I disagree about Ray.  I think our team is better with Bradley starting and Ray coming off the bench to give the second unit a much needed scoring boost. 

Ray is still an important part of our team, and Danny showed that by offering him a contract worth more than the other top competitors for his services have been willing or able to offer. 

But, we can't afford to make a guarantee of being a starter part of the package.  If Ray can't accept that, I say; "thank you for your service, Ray, but I guess it's time to move on."

Hopefully, he comes to his senses and realizes that this is where he belongs and that while he's here his job will be to do whatever Doc asks him to do, whether that's starting or coming off the bench. 

Ray's better as a starter, period, and Bradley's numbers are pretty consistent either way, as long as his minutes are production-worthy.

Ray's an intergral part of the team and still has plenty of mileage, (and a better option right now than Terry, IMO), so you cater to what serves the team best.

If Ray's numbers are better as a starter, and Avery's aren't affected by much other than time on the floor, then start Ray and give Bradley the minutes he needs.

"Starter" is just a title, but one that Ray has earned, so if it benefits him to have that title, (and has little effect on AB either way), then it makes no sense not to give it to him.

KG and Paul also prefer Ray starting, and that chemistry issue is a big one, at least until Paul and Kevin retire. Avery will produce well either way, just keep his minutes up.

Ray is going to be 37 next season.  No offseason operation is going to change that.

Mike

That's absolutely true ... it also has nothing to do with the argument of starting or not starting him.

All I'm saying is that he's better as a starter, and that it may weigh in his decision to stay.

Minutes can be adjusted in any way desired, regardless of who starts and who doesn't.

[Mencius]

That's absolutely true ... it also has nothing to do with the argument of starting or not starting him.

All I'm saying is that he's better as a starter, and that it may weigh in his decision to stay.

Minutes can be adjusted in any way desired, regardless of who starts and who doesn't.

Ray might be better as a starter, but it didn't translate to the C's getting off to better starts.  To my eye, it seemed like we too often got off to slow starts when Ray was still starting.  When we switched over to Avery starting, the team seemed to get off to faster starts (not always playing from behind).  I don't remember the exact timing of KG switching over to starting center, so that undoubtedly factored in as well.  The team's better play certainly had more to do with KG's switching to center, but some of it, imo, had to do with the switch to Avery as starter too.  I think the infusion of speed and defense to start games off really helped, plus, having Ray off the bench really gave us some offensive punch when he came in.

[MBunge]

Ray is going to be 37 next season.  No offseason operation is going to change that.

Mike

That's absolutely true ... it also has nothing to do with the argument of starting or not starting him.

All I'm saying is that he's better as a starter, and that it may weigh in his decision to stay.

Minutes can be adjusted in any way desired, regardless of who starts and who doesn't.

Uh, have you seen Doc coach?  He adjusted the Big 3's minutes down when they arrived and then didn't do anything else until this past season when he went to 5 minutes at a stretch with KG.  Ray averaged 34 minutes a game last year, even with Bradley starting for part of the season.  If Ray starts, it's a virtual certainty that Doc will ride him until he stinks so bad that you can smell it from orbit.  If Bradley's going to play serious minutes, he's simply got to start.

Mike

[indeedproceed]

Here's Broussard on Green:

"His agent, David Falk, told me Boston is the first, second and third option for Jeff Green."

Like it or not, Green will be in Green next year. All that remains to be seen is the dollars and years involved, but Danny has been pretty fair about that - to both the team and the player.

I'm cool with Green coming back now that we know KG and likely Ray are as well. He's a huge need (large physical defender at the 3, slasher, athletic forward).

If they weren't coming back, I'd be pretty annoyed at giving him the check for a team in rebuild, but for a win-now team, he's likely going to jsutify the contract.

[Celtics18]

I think Ray is staying put, and if the kicker is starting, then I think that's an easy solution.

Ray is a vet, he's earned a starting spot, and you can play Avery (for now) just as many minutes off the bench.

The whole "starting" moniker is just a head thing anyway, and if it keeps Ray here, no biggie.

Minutes are minutes, whether you're on the floor for the tip-off or not ... give your vet the respect, and just adjust the minutes.

As far as Green is concerned, he's still an unproven quantity in Boston ... he was mediocre before the injury at best, and he's got a ways to go before he's got a solid spot, IMHO.

An amazing talent and incredible athlete, but his attitude and work-ethic have yet to reach a similar level ... he's got what it takes physically, but he has not yet made the most of his abilities.

We'll see.

I disagree about Ray.  I think our team is better with Bradley starting and Ray coming off the bench to give the second unit a much needed scoring boost.  

Ray is still an important part of our team, and Danny showed that by offering him a contract worth more than the other top competitors for his services have been willing or able to offer.  

But, we can't afford to make a guarantee of being a starter part of the package.  If Ray can't accept that, I say; "thank you for your service, Ray, but I guess it's time to move on."

Hopefully, he comes to his senses and realizes that this is where he belongs and that while he's here his job will be to do whatever Doc asks him to do, whether that's starting or coming off the bench.  

Ray's better as a starter, period, and Bradley's numbers are pretty consistent either way, as long as his minutes are production-worthy.

Ray's an intergral part of the team and still has plenty of mileage, (and a better option right now than Terry, IMO), so you cater to what serves the team best.

If Ray's numbers are better as a starter, and Avery's aren't affected by much other than time on the floor, then start Ray and give Bradley the minutes he needs.

"Starter" is just a title, but one that Ray has earned, so if it benefits him to have that title, (and has little effect on AB either way), then it makes no sense not to give it to him.

KG and Paul also prefer Ray starting, and that chemistry issue is a big one, at least until Paul and Kevin retire. Avery will produce well either way, just keep his minutes up.

Ray may play better as a starter, but the team plays better with Bradley as the starter.  I'm not saying that Ray isn't an integral part of the team or that he doesn't have any mileage left.  I want him back.  

If you look at the +/- stats for five man units on 82 games.com, you'll see that the lineup of Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/Bass/Garnett was by far our most productive unit.  

It's also true that our bench often struggled to score points, not having a true scorer out there.  Considering these factors, it seems to make sense to me to start Bradley and bring Ray off the bench.  With Ray on the second unit, you automatically have a guy who can fill it up.  Bradley is an excellent running mate with Rondo who can play great pressure D, fill the lane on the break, and be a superb cutter in the half court.  

Don't look at it as a demotion.  Look at it as the bench needs Ray.  

I love Ray Allen, but I don't think it makes sense to give him a guarantee that he'll be the starter as a carrot to bring him back.  He should want to be back regardless of what role he's asked to fill.  

[Brendan]

I wonder why that unit is better though. AB got a lot of burn towards end of season, when KG really lifted his game. He wasn't so good in the first half. I'd like to see those lineups split by each half of the season to further understand.

Let's assume the wing/guard spots are filled by these guys: Rondo / AB / Allen / Pierce / Green.

Rondo is going to start - he's the best player on the team, and he'll play the most minutes. AB has to play when Rondo is out - he's the only other guy that can man the PG at all. But traditionally if Rondo is out, Pierce is in. Pierce is the only play maker in the half court in that group. Allen's offense comes primarily off set plays and fast breaks where he's out in transition or catch and shoot trailer.

I'd rather see a starting lineup of Rondo / Allen / Green, with Green taking on the role of AB (catch and shoot in the corner, backcuts / flashing to the hoop, running in transition) - I think his height will be an advantage for finishing at the rim.

Pierce can come in at SG, SF, and with Green sliding to PF from SF in a small ball lineup, really he can come off the bench anytime. He also won't have to play as many minutes and less time covering elite SFs. All things pierce needs at this point.

For Ray playing with Rondo helps him - he has less ball handling responsibility, Rondo gets him better looks, and he lacks the positional flexibility of Pierce. Let Ray Allen start, but take his minutes down to 24-30 range.

AB won't be ready for the start of the season anyways, so bring back Dooling or someone similar to backup Rondo until then, once AB has his legs, use him as a change of pace guard off the bench. He'll still get minutes, but he'll also be easier to keep out of matchups where his lack of height causes problems.

[blink]

I would like to see the quote / source or whatever saying that KG and PP prefer RA to be starting?  I assume KG and PP prefer 'winning' and we did a lot more of that after AB was inserted into the starting lineup last year. 

I know there are a lot of things going into that, but just to say that RA is a vet and he has 'earned' it doesn't hold water with me.  You play the players that make the best team. 

I think Ray is staying put, and if the kicker is starting, then I think that's an easy solution.

Ray is a vet, he's earned a starting spot, and you can play Avery (for now) just as many minutes off the bench.

The whole "starting" moniker is just a head thing anyway, and if it keeps Ray here, no biggie.

Minutes are minutes, whether you're on the floor for the tip-off or not ... give your vet the respect, and just adjust the minutes.

As far as Green is concerned, he's still an unproven quantity in Boston ... he was mediocre before the injury at best, and he's got a ways to go before he's got a solid spot, IMHO.

An amazing talent and incredible athlete, but his attitude and work-ethic have yet to reach a similar level ... he's got what it takes physically, but he has not yet made the most of his abilities.

We'll see.

I disagree about Ray.  I think our team is better with Bradley starting and Ray coming off the bench to give the second unit a much needed scoring boost.  

Ray is still an important part of our team, and Danny showed that by offering him a contract worth more than the other top competitors for his services have been willing or able to offer.  

But, we can't afford to make a guarantee of being a starter part of the package.  If Ray can't accept that, I say; "thank you for your service, Ray, but I guess it's time to move on."

Hopefully, he comes to his senses and realizes that this is where he belongs and that while he's here his job will be to do whatever Doc asks him to do, whether that's starting or coming off the bench.  

Ray's better as a starter, period, and Bradley's numbers are pretty consistent either way, as long as his minutes are production-worthy.

Ray's an intergral part of the team and still has plenty of mileage, (and a better option right now than Terry, IMO), so you cater to what serves the team best.

If Ray's numbers are better as a starter, and Avery's aren't affected by much other than time on the floor, then start Ray and give Bradley the minutes he needs.

"Starter" is just a title, but one that Ray has earned, so if it benefits him to have that title, (and has little effect on AB either way), then it makes no sense not to give it to him.

KG and Paul also prefer Ray starting, and that chemistry issue is a big one, at least until Paul and Kevin retire. Avery will produce well either way, just keep his minutes up.