#1 Factor Haunting the Celtics over these past 4 seasons?

[Roy H.]

Injuries.

KG's injury cost us a title in 2009, and probably in 2010.  Perk's injury sealed the deal in 2010.

Shaq's injury was huge last year, as was Rondo's injury in the playoffs.

This year, Bradley, JO, Green, and Wilcox were out for the year, and Pierce, Ray, and Stiemer were all banged up.

How can the answer be anything other than injuries?  The only year I really fault Danny for putting together a poor bench is in 2009, when we got worse in the off-season.  Every season since then, he's added strong players with the minimal money we've had available.  I can't fault him for that.

[Chief]

I think father time caused a lot of the injuries. Shaq, KG, Ray, Pierce...

[sofutomygaha]

I agree that with a little more health luck we could have had championships in '09 and '10. That said, we were built to take those gambles with our reliance on older vet bigs, and it's been a really great four seasons. I can't complain that we were unlucky

[ballin]

Injuries. Without injuries, we 3-peat.

[Frontierboy]

without the major injuries, we 5-peat

[ScoobyDoo]

I agree that very bad luck with injuries has played a major part in us not winning more titles these lats five years, for sure.

However, I agree with the Op to an extent here as well because outside of the 2008 bench/team, every year we've put together a hodge podge bench - new players, new guys for our core to adjust to, etc.

I wrote a post after the 2009 bench was put together titled "If you're going to buy a Rolls Royce, don't put bicycle tires on it".

I was disappointed that we had put together a dream team trio with a short window and then had cut them short with the right bench to maximize their talents.

It's true that had KG been 100% healthy in 2009, I think that would have been enough to get us a title in 2009 and also had Perk not gone down in game 6 in 2010 we also would have one a title.

But something can be said for the fact that we've had to "reload" every off season with new players. Continuity is very important for championship teams - most of the teams that go on runs, do it with a roster that's been together for a number of years and that isn't changed up every off season.

I thought it was a mistake to let Posey go - he would have declined in skill but in our system and motivated by our vets I think he probably had another couple good years in him, year three you back him up more with a Marquis Daniels or Pietrus type, year four you can trade his expiring...

I also thought it was a mistake to let Tony Allen go - he provided major toughness and intimidation to this team. I would argue he may have been enough to get us by Miami last year - because Wade had an absolute layup line to the rim with Ray on him.

I also think an argument can be made that were he on this roster this year, we'd also be in the finals, for two reasons:

1. Wade would be in a bruising battle with Tony for 20-25 minutes a night.

2. When Lebron was going off in game 6 - Tony Allen would have been brought in and because he has an absolute pit bull mentality on D - he would have been way, way, way up into James. Would have completely changed that game and LeBron's momentum.

So, for me, the big mistake was not going all in and speniding even more money if you had to to get three long term bench additions for this team:

1. A quality 4/5 (someone like Jason Thompson, Kurt Thomas)
2. A quality SF for Pierce (Posey)  
3. A quality Combo guard or back u[p off guard ( TA would do)

Then let that starting five and those three key guys, play together for 3 to 4 years consecutively - add pieces around them.

I think the lack of continuity in our bench is what hurt us the most - maybe the big three play less minutes with a stronger more consistent bench.

[The One]

The injury to KG is the reason.

Although I'm surprised someone didn't blame the refs.   

[bfrombleacher]

The refs

[pearljammer10]

where is the option for selecting "rebounding"

[tyrone biggums]

09 - KG Blew out his knee
10 - Joey Crawford/Rebounding
11 - Rebounding
12 - Avery Bradley/Rebounding

I would say Rebounding is a pretty big reason

[OsirusCeltics]

No question it is the inadequate bench. Yes injuries are a big part, but that happens to every team. Dallas Mavs won the title when Caron Bulter was injured, who was maybe their 2nd or 3rd best player

The bench is the most underrated reason a team wins a championship
The Celtics since after 2008, have had a horrible bench. Whenever either of the Big 3 were injured, they didn't have enough firepower off the bench to sustain momentum during the season. It's also the reason alot of the star players in the playoffs look so worn out, because the bench only scores like 4 points, which forces the starters to play 40+ min each night

Honestly, it was the Heat bench that beat the Celtics. Celtics starting 5 vs Heat starting 5, Celtics were more balanced and played more like a team. But the Heat bench had James Jones, Haslem, Mike Miller, Battier, who shot lights out when Wade and Lebron weren't on their game

Member it was the bench of James Posey and Eddie House who helped the Celtics get back from that 24 point defecit against the Lakers in Game 4 of the 2008 Finals

Its bad enough that the Celtics are old. But now they have to expend alot of energy because the bench was not producing

[ballin]

I agree that very bad luck with injuries has played a major part in us not winning more titles these lats five years, for sure.

However, I agree with the Op to an extent here as well because outside of the 2008 bench/team, every year we've put together a hodge podge bench - new players, new guys for our core to adjust to, etc.

I wrote a post after the 2009 bench was put together titled "If you're going to buy a Rolls Royce, don't put bicycle tires on it".

I was disappointed that we had put together a dream team trio with a short window and then had cut them short with the right bench to maximize their talents.

It's true that had KG been 100% healthy in 2009, I think that would have been enough to get us a title in 2009 and also had Perk not gone down in game 6 in 2010 we also would have one a title.

But something can be said for the fact that we've had to "reload" every off season with new players. Continuity is very important for championship teams - most of the teams that go on runs, do it with a roster that's been together for a number of years and that isn't changed up every off season.

I thought it was a mistake to let Posey go - he would have declined in skill but in our system and motivated by our vets I think he probably had another couple good years in him, year three you back him up more with a Marquis Daniels or Pietrus type, year four you can trade his expiring...

I also thought it was a mistake to let Tony Allen go - he provided major toughness and intimidation to this team. I would argue he may have been enough to get us by Miami last year - because Wade had an absolute layup line to the rim with Ray on him.

I also think an argument can be made that were he on this roster this year, we'd also be in the finals, for two reasons:

1. Wade would be in a bruising battle with Tony for 20-25 minutes a night.

2. When Lebron was going off in game 6 - Tony Allen would have been brought in and because he has an absolute pit bull mentality on D - he would have been way, way, way up into James. Would have completely changed that game and LeBron's momentum.

So, for me, the big mistake was not going all in and speniding even more money if you had to to get three long term bench additions for this team:

1. A quality 4/5 (someone like Jason Thompson, Kurt Thomas)
2. A quality SF for Pierce (Posey)  
3. A quality Combo guard or back u[p off guard ( TA would do)

Then let that starting five and those three key guys, play together for 3 to 4 years consecutively - add pieces around them.

I think the lack of continuity in our bench is what hurt us the most - maybe the big three play less minutes with a stronger more consistent bench.

Allow me to blow your mind right now:

During the playoffs, your starting 5 accounts for 94% of your wins. Your 6th man accounts for just an additional 5%, and the rest of your team is statistically meaningless (source: wagesofwins.com). So no, our bench had pretty much nothing to do with it; we lost because key parts of our starting 5 got injured (KG, Perk, Shaq).

[ballin]

No question it is the inadequate bench. Yes injuries are a big part, but that happens to every team. Dallas Mavs won the title when Caron Bulter was injured, who was maybe their 2nd or 3rd best player

The bench is the most underrated reason a team wins a championship
The Celtics since after 2008, have had a horrible bench. Whenever either of the Big 3 were injured, they didn't have enough firepower off the bench to sustain momentum during the season. It's also the reason alot of the star players in the playoffs look so worn out, because the bench only scores like 4 points, which forces the starters to play 40+ min each night

Honestly, it was the Heat bench that beat the Celtics. Celtics starting 5 vs Heat starting 5, Celtics were more balanced and played more like a team. But the Heat bench had James Jones, Haslem, Mike Miller, Battier, who shot lights out when Wade and Lebron weren't on their game

Member it was the bench of James Posey and Eddie House who helped the Celtics get back from that 24 point defecit against the Lakers in Game 4 of the 2008 Finals

Its bad enough that the Celtics are old. But now they have to expend alot of energy because the bench was not producing

Again, see what I just posted. Benches are essentially inconsequential during the playoffs, largely because they have their minutes massively reduced to "playoff rotations".

[bfrombleacher]

No question it is the inadequate bench. Yes injuries are a big part, but that happens to every team. Dallas Mavs won the title when Caron Bulter was injured, who was maybe their 2nd or 3rd best player

The bench is the most underrated reason a team wins a championship
The Celtics since after 2008, have had a horrible bench. Whenever either of the Big 3 were injured, they didn't have enough firepower off the bench to sustain momentum during the season. It's also the reason alot of the star players in the playoffs look so worn out, because the bench only scores like 4 points, which forces the starters to play 40+ min each night

Honestly, it was the Heat bench that beat the Celtics. Celtics starting 5 vs Heat starting 5, Celtics were more balanced and played more like a team. But the Heat bench had James Jones, Haslem, Mike Miller, Battier, who shot lights out when Wade and Lebron weren't on their game

Member it was the bench of James Posey and Eddie House who helped the Celtics get back from that 24 point defecit against the Lakers in Game 4 of the 2008 Finals

Its bad enough that the Celtics are old. But now they have to expend alot of energy because the bench was not producing

Again, see what I just posted. Benches are essentially inconsequential during the playoffs, largely because they have their minutes massively reduced to "playoff rotations".

Which is a result of...injuries. I don't think we've had a consistent bench for years.

Surprisingly it was all the young guns who got injured. Glen Davis (well, not really surprising but he's young), Delonte...Rondo...

[BballTim]

I agree that very bad luck with injuries has played a major part in us not winning more titles these lats five years, for sure.

However, I agree with the Op to an extent here as well because outside of the 2008 bench/team, every year we've put together a hodge podge bench - new players, new guys for our core to adjust to, etc.

I wrote a post after the 2009 bench was put together titled "If you're going to buy a Rolls Royce, don't put bicycle tires on it".

I was disappointed that we had put together a dream team trio with a short window and then had cut them short with the right bench to maximize their talents.

It's true that had KG been 100% healthy in 2009, I think that would have been enough to get us a title in 2009 and also had Perk not gone down in game 6 in 2010 we also would have one a title.

But something can be said for the fact that we've had to "reload" every off season with new players. Continuity is very important for championship teams - most of the teams that go on runs, do it with a roster that's been together for a number of years and that isn't changed up every off season.

I thought it was a mistake to let Posey go - he would have declined in skill but in our system and motivated by our vets I think he probably had another couple good years in him, year three you back him up more with a Marquis Daniels or Pietrus type, year four you can trade his expiring...

I also thought it was a mistake to let Tony Allen go - he provided major toughness and intimidation to this team. I would argue he may have been enough to get us by Miami last year - because Wade had an absolute layup line to the rim with Ray on him.

I also think an argument can be made that were he on this roster this year, we'd also be in the finals, for two reasons:

1. Wade would be in a bruising battle with Tony for 20-25 minutes a night.

2. When Lebron was going off in game 6 - Tony Allen would have been brought in and because he has an absolute pit bull mentality on D - he would have been way, way, way up into James. Would have completely changed that game and LeBron's momentum.

So, for me, the big mistake was not going all in and speniding even more money if you had to to get three long term bench additions for this team:

1. A quality 4/5 (someone like Jason Thompson, Kurt Thomas)
2. A quality SF for Pierce (Posey)  
3. A quality Combo guard or back u[p off guard ( TA would do)

Then let that starting five and those three key guys, play together for 3 to 4 years consecutively - add pieces around them.

I think the lack of continuity in our bench is what hurt us the most - maybe the big three play less minutes with a stronger more consistent bench.

Allow me to blow your mind right now:

During the playoffs, your starting 5 accounts for 94% of your wins. Your 6th man accounts for just an additional 5%, and the rest of your team is statistically meaningless (source: wagesofwins.com). So no, our bench had pretty much nothing to do with it; we lost because key parts of our starting 5 got injured (KG, Perk, Shaq).

  They aren't meaningless. When you talk about accounting for wins, you're talking about their win share (or whatever they call it) being above a baseline number(like 0.1). The good starters have higher numbers and the bench players generally have lower numbers. Those numbers can go negative, where players increase the likelihood that a team will lose. You don't want big negative numbers from your bench players, so they aren't meaningless.