Author Topic: Life without Paul  (Read 8403 times)

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Life without Paul
« on: May 24, 2012, 11:49:32 AM »

Offline nostar

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I've posted a couple of ideas on here before and the feedback was mixed so I figure I'll try again.

My opinion changes day to day on this and sometimes I don't even believe that I could say or think this but...

a Celtics rebuild cannot include Paul Pierce.

The reasons are both financial and emotional. First and foremost Paul is a $16M contract for the next 2 years. While that would be fine for a team on the rise and certainly reasonable for what Pierce contributes it does not lend itself to any of the goals of a rebuild or a youth movement. If Pierce stays he will start. He'll get slower and he'll be efficient but on the decline. His skills ensure that we won't be a lottery team and his contract ensures that we'll have trouble throwing money at big name FAs. This is Boston and big name FAs aren't exactly beating down our door so we need the cap space.

There is a part of my heart that says Pierce deserves to retire a Celtic and only a Celtic. I think he knows if he doesn't do it this season it's more than likely he won't (see the retirement allusions post-trade deadline). So swallowing the hard pill that Paul won't be part of our team for the first time in 14 years here are the options:

  • Pierce retires
  • Pierce is traded
  • Pierce is amnestied

The best situation for the Celtics is a trade. Paul is obviously still a gifted scorer and has a lot to offer a contending team. He's the youngest of our big-3 and he is still worth a decent amount in trade scenarios.

I have two scenarios for trading Pierce.

UTA: [Pierce/JJJ] for [Harris/Milsap]
LAL: [Pierce] for [Gasol]

The first trade is good because Utah didn't seem to want Harris last season and they are stacked at the PF position. All the while they suffer rookies or Josh Howard at the SF. Additionally this saves them some $. My thinking is that if Garnett comes back at a reasonable salary (8-10M) then we won't need an All-star scoring PF like Gasol and this trade makes our bench a monster. With the intention of signing Jeff Green back to the roster this really helps our depth and Milsap can give KG the 20-25 minutes a night and eat up the other 20-25. Harris is not a great NBA guard anymore but he can run an offense efficiently and he would be the best backup we've had since Cassell.

If Garnett decides to either retire or (less likely) sign elsewhere, we need to replace at least some his skill to remain afloat. Gasol is a costly contract but he has a lot of good basketball left. It makes a ton of sense for the Celtics but the Lakers might not be sold on giving up size for an aging Paul Pierce so here is why it makes sense for them. Trading Gasol for Pierce gives them a legitimate second scoring option on the wing. LA can amnesty RonRon and get a very solid defender to replace him in Pierce as well as increased scoring. LA saves ~4M per year for two years on just the 1-for-1 trade and another 7M per year if they amnesty Artest. Essentially this trade nets the Lakers an amazing player on the tail end of his career and roughly 11M of cap relief pear year (which they desperately need). The problem is that this scenario works with any SF on the market and PP might not be the best option for them.

---

There are a dozen or so other trades I thought up but let's move on to the Pierce retirement option.

It is my opinion that the teams options are the same whether KG re-ups next season or not. If KG comes back for the hometown price of 8M/year for 1-2 years then we have to put someone young and reasonably talented behind him to eat minutes. I hoped we could get a good PF via a Pierce trade but if not I'd probably use the picks we have to get PF/C options. As NBA ready as we can find and BIG. Names that come to mind are:

Jared Sullinger
Meyers Leonard   
Arnett Moultrie
Fab Melo
Festus Ezeli

We'd have to trade up for Sullinger and maybe for Moultrie but the others are slated to go around our picks. Whether KG re-ups or not we still need talented big men to develop and play for us. Our back court looks pretty solid with RR/AB and if we get Jeff Green resigned I think we just need to focus on the low post.

  • Pierce retires
  • Allen walks
  • KG signs for 2 years (8M)
  • Green resigns (8M)
  • Bass walks

That makes our team:

PG Rondo
SG Bradley
SF Green
PF Garnett
C  Stiemsma

BENCH = JJJ, 1/2/3 Drafted Rookies

Salary is around ~31M and that leaves ~29M in cap space. If we want to sign FAs that is almost 2 (young) max contracts (Gordon/Hibbert) or we can just fill out the roster with role players and wait for a better FA class. I'd probably prefer to shoot the moon on a big man and a talented wing to pair with Rondo/KG/Green but that is just me. We can sign our rookies over the cap and fill out the bench on vet's min. contracts. I really like Pietrus and would give him a little more than the minimum but that is it for our current roster.

So if we don't gloriously burn our way to banner #18 this season I think a Pierce-less-Celtics is pretty much the best way to brave the new landscape of the NBA. Small market teams have to get better through more so from savvy trading and the draft rather than big splashes in free agency and we need to start now or risk getting stuck in the cellar.

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2012, 11:52:20 AM »

Offline CelticHooligan3

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Little bit wordy. You lost me at Pierce for Gasol.

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2012, 12:32:02 PM »

Offline youcanthandlethetruth113

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Little bit wordy. You lost me at Pierce for Gasol.

Haha...me too!

Seriously though, Pierce for Gasol?
"Perk is not an alley-oop guy" - Tommy Heinson - Feb 27th 2008 vs. Cleveland

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 12:40:33 PM »

Offline mkogav

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IMO, the Captain isn't going anywhere and neither is KG.

Miami may be in shambles by the end of the season. Chicago is a non-contender w/o Rose and his ACL. The C's can compete for a ECF title with Rondo, PP, and KG as it's core.

I am sure Danny sees this to. I expect him to reload the team for another run, although I would not be surprised it Ray isn't around for it.

Ray, Bradley, Bass, Moore, JJJ, the C's 2012 picks are all up for grabs though. I could see Danny trading any or all of those assets for other players that he likes.

Mk

P.S. Although, this is Danny we are talking about, so u never know.


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Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 12:55:38 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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If you can't rebuild with Paul, don't trade him for another 30 years old.




Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 12:56:29 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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What is the point of amnesty for Pierce's last year?  Is there some FA out there I don't know about?   

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 02:48:40 PM »

Offline nostar

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Little bit wordy. You lost me at Pierce for Gasol.

I get that a lot on forums. In fairness...it is an online forum and I am in the trade rumors and ideas section.

As far as Pierce for Gasol, that is a really good trade for the Celtics. It gives us a legit center prospect, 3 years younger than Pierce, a truly gifted big man both shooting and passing as well as a valuable trading asset, objectively more so than Pierce. That is why I said the Lakers would have to be given incentive to do such a trade. They, much as it pains me to say it, have the more valuable player.

Miami may be in shambles by the end of the season.

Miami is in shambles? Last I checked they have the two best wing players in basketball and a very good power forward. Oh, and they are in line to get an aging HoF point guard next year with their MLE. Shambles is right!

I am sure Danny sees this to. I expect him to reload the team for another run, although I would not be surprised it Ray isn't around for it.

I am almost certain that regardless of this season's outcome Ainge has decided to blow up the roster in the off season. From what I read he tried to do it preseason and mid season too.

If you can't rebuild with Paul, don't trade him for another 30 years old.

Pierce is 3 years older than Gasol and has played far more minutes in his career. If you think 3 years doesn't make a boat load of difference just look at KG last season to 3 years prior. 3 years at the end of a career is a lot.

What is the point of amnesty for Pierce's last year?  Is there some FA out there I don't know about?   

Well we have 2 more years on Pierce's contract after this season. For this season the top FAs (one's that could demand a max deal) would be Derron Williams, Eric Gordon and Roy Hibbert. However, next off season will have a lot of restricted and unrestricted FAs that the Celtics could use that cap space on. If I read the amnesty provision correctly we'd have to use it before next season or we lose it. The 2013 Free Agency is going to be crazy. Take a look: http://www.hoopsworld.com/2013-nba-free-agents

-----------------------------------------------------

So far all the comments have been "don't trade pierce" or " Gasol...really?" which is fine but I feel like some of you are not being realistic. The Celtics were in a hole for over a decade. Ainge pulled a miracle and saved us from further mediocrity (and probably losing Paul in FA) but we need to make sure that the same behavior that precipitated the first lull doesn't put us into another one. All indications are that Ainge agrees. We have a moody point guard when we're a top team. Imagine him if we're losing........

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2012, 06:13:07 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I couldn't stomach Pierce for Gasol.  I would rather blow the team up, commit to not being a contender for two years, and trade Pierce to Orlando for Turkoglu's contract and two first round picks (and possibly some other asset they pick up if thy trade Dwight Howard).
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Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 06:24:09 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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Luol Deng and a pick for Paul Pierce.

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 07:04:07 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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The idea of trading Pierce and building around Rondo blows my mind. Rondo should have more trade value to acquire a nice piece and some picks... plus Paul is STILL the best player on this team.

My team for next year:

PG. __________
SG. Bradley
SF. Pierce
PF. __________
 C. Garnett

PG. Moore
SG. __________
SF. Green
PF. Johnson
 C. Stiemsma/Hollins

Bass is a bench guy, too jump shot reliant to build around. Moore isn't a PG but could definitely be a nice scoring combo guard. Johnson has the potential to grow into a NICE scorer/shot-blocker. Sign KG to a 2 year deal at low money (or let him walk if the price is too high. Ray Allen's time in Boston is done (it was fun).

Then you use 2-3 of this year's picks to fill in holes. Maybe you can package one of the 1st's and a high 2nd to move up a bit... either way Danny needs to have a 2004 type draft this season (he got Jefferson at 15, West at 24, and TA at 25).

IMO this team's future is brighter with Rondo on the outside. Pass first, pass 2nd PG's are great for all-star games and assist records but they don't lead to having Championship teams. Stockton has nothing, Nash has nothing... Isiah has multiple, Tony Parker has multiple.

Assists and ball movement create great teams and rings, but sometimes having one facilitator who dribbles the air out and looks to pass can be almost as bad as a guy who just dribbles out the air and jacks up hail-mary shots. Give me a team with alot of TEAM assists between everyone over a great passing PG any day of the week.

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 07:05:18 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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same as life without John, Ringo and George I guess.? ???

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 07:31:58 PM »

Offline ManUp

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Trading Gasol for Pierce is short sited. Very nice on paper, assuming we resign Green and Garnett, but it doesn't make us any better than LA was this year. It also puts a lot of money into an older guy who has been underachieving for a couple seasons now. If Gasol is actually in decline we end up giving LA cap relief while compromising our own cap situation.

Trading Pierce to Utah for Harris/Milsap doesn't really make sense. We don't need Harris at all and Milsap doesn't make us a contender if we take Pierce out of the equation. These trades don't make us contenders now and just lock up cap space long term. We are better off keeping Pierce and our other guys on one year contracts to preserve the cap another year. This team is not a quick fix away from being a perennial contender.

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 07:36:51 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I'd bet money Gasol would love to be off that Laker team if truth be known...he gets beat down like a red headed step child all the time... he has put up with all that BLANK - BLANK stuff from that whole organization so long , and been Kobes whipping boy way too much.... that man surely is tired of that ZOO of clowns called the lakers.

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 07:42:56 PM »

Offline bostonfan23

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You compared KG of three years ago to present KG to show how much a player can decline...which confuses me, because KG is playing his best basketball since 2008.

Part of me thinks that KG as a Celtic is tied to Pierce as a Celtic. There is no chance that the Celtics get him for $16m over two years if Pierce is dealt...I just don't buy it. And Stiemsma starting? He sometimes struggles playing against the opposing teams' backups. He's not a starter.

Your plan isn't a blowup, and it's not a win-now move...if we want to blow it up, let's move past the Big Three and deal Rondo. If we want to win now, why don't we hold on to the one guy on the team who can consistently create his own shot and just put up 20/5/5.

Re: Life without Paul
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 07:46:48 PM »

Offline thestackshow

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Paul and KG are retiring after the season.

Book it.

Allen should follow.
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