Author Topic: Ray Allen helps our other offensive options score easier, should he start again?  (Read 4404 times)

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Offline Senninsage

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Don't get me wrong, this isn't me suddenly brushing Bradley off. He should continue to be an important contributor to this team, and continue to get major minutes. However, Ray being in there with Bass and all the other offensive weapons, opens them up more because of the attention Ray gets out there.

And I always thought this idea that Ray couldn't play D was an illusion. Bradley is just quicker and naturally has superior on ball pressure d. But Ray plays intelligent defense. Not only that, he's a bigger guy than Bradley, so he can actually prevent certain guys from getting up the kinds of comfortable shots they can get up over a smaller Bradley. Bradley is far more athletic than Ray, and I'm not oblivious to what that brings to this team. However, on those possessions where Bradley has very little time to use that incredible jumping ability to make the shot tougher on the guy he's defending, and the best he can do is just get over to the guy and try to run him off the shot, or get him to think twice, Ray being the bigger guy helps tremendously in that area.

Ray helps our offense, even when he's not shooting the ball or scoring a ton.

Offline Interceptor

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My opinion, one of Bradley's biggest impacts on the D has been to take a load off of Rondo. Rajon doesn't have to burn the candle at both ends anymore when the two of them are on the floor together, and that makes a difference for his aggression on offense.

I think that Ray realizes it as well. He was tenacious on D tonight, and definitely made a difference even though he wasn't scoring. I think part of it is what you said, nobody wants to leave him open on offense, but it's also partly him stepping up on defense.

EDIT: and to answer your question, I actually prefer Ray off the bench (playing starter's minutes, basically), but it goes to show that he still has it in terms of starting.

Offline thestackshow

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Bradley needs to start. End of story.

Bradley is a straight up beast on defense, and is better offensively then the current state Ray Allen is in.
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Offline Senninsage

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Bradley needs to start. End of story.

Bradley is a straight up beast on defense, and is better offensively then the current state Ray Allen is in.

You don't seem to get it. Bradley has his moments. He has not yet developed into a superior offensive weapon than Ray Allen. No, he may not be better offensively than Ray, because he isn't aggressive enough with his offense. He is a weapon for us with regards to sneaking away some easy baskets, I'll give him that. I know he can do other things surprisingly well, but he doesn't do it nearly enough, and maybe, just maybe, his shoulder is preventing him from giving it to us.

He also helps us far more than Ray on fast break opportunities. I'll give him that, too.

Bradley is a better natural one on one defender than Ray, but it's arguable if he's a more overall intelligent defender than Ray. Bradley's defensive timing in a one on one is superior to Ray's. He sticks to guys like glue and denies the ball in a way Ray never could. He has a gift that Ray has never had in that regard. However, Ray's experience and intelligence on how to play defense in big game situations, most importantly on reading what kind of play the offense is trying to make, and not necessarily just what the guy he's guarding is trying to do, even with his limited speed and natural instincts, is superior to Bradley's. Bradley sometimes can be overzealous and overcommit, and there are numerous times when it has costed the Celtics in this postseason. I don't ever blame him for any one particular loss, however. And I never forget that Bradley has saved our rear end on more than one occasion in these playoffs. I'm not suggesting decreasing his minutes. I'm also well aware of the fact that he takes away a number of offensive options for teams in ways that Ray never could, like certain guaranteed fast break baskets.

A good example of where Bradley can be a liability at times, is what happened in game 1 against the Hawks, where they would just shoot over him because he was so small. Bradley is great, but teams have made certain adjustments that I've noticed, and Ray being out there at the same time with guys like KG, Bass, Rondo, Pierce, might help everybody else have greater offense, because of the respect that has to be paid to Ray Allen.

Ray's effectiveness is quadrupled when he's on the floor with other big offensive threats. Bradley is good, but his offensive instincts and ability right now, as incredible as I know his ability to be (and have seen it be this season), this shoulder thing for Bradley is becoming more and more serious, and defenders are mostly respecting Bradley's quick cut to the basket ability, and not necessarily his mid range shot or 3 point shot.

There comes a time when adjustments must be made, and teams that don't adjust accordingly throughout the playoffs lose. Hollins was one such adjustment in key situations that has helped us win games. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Pavlovic inserted into our bench rotations, also. He's another important piece, I feel.

Offline bopna

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Please lets not go back to pre all star break Celtics...we were largely a better basketball team post Bradley era. Today's game was savedby Bass and RR, ray played a brilliant role but seriously...AB with one shoulder is better than Ray at this point.

Offline CelticSooner

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No. If Bradley is able to play there is no reason to mess around with the lineups now. It doesn't matter who starts, it's who finishes.

Offline lightspeed5

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ray allen works.

Offline green7

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Bradley needs to start. End of story.

Bradley is a straight up beast on defense, and is better offensively then the current state Ray Allen is in.


agreed

Offline LooseCannon

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The Celtics offense flows from defense.  Although a healthy Ray Allen is a better offensive weapon than a healthy Avery Bradley, I'd like to see Bradley finish games more often, regardless of who starts.
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Offline guava_wrench

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Is this a single game reaction post? Ray Allen has played plenty of minutes over the playoffs, including in games where our offensive efforts seemed futile. In fact, he usually finishes games with Bridley, so he was on the floor when we lost the ability to score late.

Please no more lineup change suggestions based on the last game played.

Offline Senninsage

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Please lets not go back to pre all star break Celtics...we were largely a better basketball team post Bradley era. Today's game was savedby Bass and RR, ray played a brilliant role but seriously...AB with one shoulder is better than Ray at this point.

How quickly do people forget that Ray was also a significant part of post All-Star Celtics, more so than Bradley. This idea that Ray is some kind of scrub is... wow.

Offline RockinRyA

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Please lets not go back to pre all star break Celtics...we were largely a better basketball team post Bradley era. Today's game was savedby Bass and RR, ray played a brilliant role but seriously...AB with one shoulder is better than Ray at this point.

How quickly do people forget that Ray was also a significant part of post All-Star Celtics, more so than Bradley. This idea that Ray is some kind of scrub is... wow.

what's wow is your blind support over someone who clearly is not playing well. a hundred percent ray is a starter, perhaps borderline all star. an injured ray who couldnt even hit his freethrows is a scrub. sorry but his past accomplishments has nothing to do with how he is playing now. Im calling it what it is.

bass has shown he can play like this without ray allen. The idea that bass is incapable of playing well without ray allen is laughable.

Offline Roy H.

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Bradley is a straight up beast on defense, and is better offensively then the current state Ray Allen is in.

No, he's not.  Bradley is struggling with his own injuries, which have resulted in him being a very poor offensive player this post-season.  He's averaging 6.7 points on 36.8% shooting.  Ray has struggled, but he's still averaging 10 points and has an eFG% of .507. 


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Offline Spilling Green Dye

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This is the first game I've see in awhile where Ray's defense could be considered "good".  That's promising.

Ray definitely helps space the floor, and is a more talented offensive option than Avery, but Avery has a couple of advantages on offense.  To me, Avery is better in the following offensive categories:

-Running baseline routes under the basket, catching it there, and finishing at the hoop.
-Slashing to the hoop.
-Leading a fast break (or at least dribbling on one).


I really hope Avery comes back (healthy) soon because he adds a very unique dimension to this starting lineup.

Offline mctyson

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Bradley needs to start. End of story.

It doesn't matter who starts, it matters who plays more and who finishes the game.  In the playoffs, even with Ray coming off the bench, he has been getting just as many minutes as AB and he has been finishing games in Doc's small lineup.

Bradley is hurt though - much more hurt than Ray.  I have had Bradley's injuries and it sucks.  You think you are fine and they your shoulder just pops out, goes right back in, your arm goes completely numb from pain.  It goes away after 15 min or so, you are fine again, then you go back in and it happens again.

Until Bradley can be more confident in his health, Ray will play and AB will ride.