Big Hands = Bad Shooters Theory

[ACF]

I've got big hands (and feet - size 11) for my height, 5'11. I am a pretty good shooter in spite of that. So, not true. There are many other factors that matter, as others have pointed out.

[Chris]

I am not saying its just Big Hands = Bad Shooting.  No doubt there have been players with large hands who have been decent shooters, even great shooters.  No doubt there have been players who can palm the ball very easily and still hit jumpshots (see Jordan, Michael).

But I support the idea that Big Hands can lead to Bad Shooting because large hands and being able to the palm the ball easily, like right off the catch or dribble, gives the player a unique advantage that a majority of players, particularly at young ages, do not have.  This is where bad habits - or just habits - are formed.

Maybe it is more palming and the bad habits formed by this than it is large hands in general - and of course you need large hands to palm the ball.  But I agree with Reggie that Rondo's hand size does not HELP his jumpshot percentage.

Now, this I can see a little bit.  Although, I actually think it would be more his freakish athleticism.  He didn't have to learn to be a good shooter when he was younger, because he could just get to the rim whenever he wanted. 

I don't think it is a coincidence that there are so many great shooters who are not elite athletes.  That is because they were forced to dedicate themselves to that shot, in order to be better than the guys who had more natural gifts.

Guys like Ray, who have the athleticism and the shot are incredibly rare.  It is tough to get a 15 year old to put up 500 shots a day and work on his form, when he is already dominating games against Seniors, even without a good outside shot.

[Celtics18]

I'm in the minority here, but I do buy the "large hands" theory.  It's harder to get that ball resting perfectly on your finger tips when you have large hands.  Players with very big hands can overcome that and become good shooters, but they rarely do it with that textbook Ray Allen or Steve Nash form. 

Think Magic Johnson for a good example of this.  He became a decent shooter over his career, but his form was never pretty. 

[guava_wrench]

Yeah I agree with the big hand theory. Makes perfect sense. Have you ever tried to shoot a tennis ball into a basketball hoop? its [dang] hard.

Why should that comparison be relevant? How much have you practiced shooting a tennis ball? And why would you use the same form? These 'common sense' analogies don't hold water.

What Miller discussed is completely overcome-able through repetitions.

Further, guys have shot well with all sorts of shooting forms. It is a bit ridiculous to compare Rondo with just Ray or Reggie. Compare him with guys who are average shooters. Look at their shooting forms. That is all we need from him.

Also, Rondo has improved a lot from early on. It may be that his hands did in fact lead him to sloppy form, but this may have mostly just made him a late bloomer. His affinity for passing may be a bigger culprit by limiting the in-game attempts that would make him more comfortable and confident. Stubbornness may also play a role if he doesn't take well to coaching on his shooting form.

[CelticG1]

Are his hands that much bigger than KG, Aldridge, Dirk, Barjani, Amare.

Also its a little different than just picking up a small ball and trying to shoot free throws. It would be like if I used that small ball my entire life and still couldn't shoot well with it.

and yet you can dribble well and pass well with it

Yeah exactly.

We can easily say how incredibly hard it is to dribble a tennis ball as well

[indeedproceed]

Yeah I agree with the big hand theory. Makes perfect sense. Have you ever tried to shoot a tennis ball into a basketball hoop? its [dang] hard.

Why should that comparison be relevant? How much have you practiced shooting a tennis ball? And why would you use the same form? These 'common sense' analogies don't hold water.

What Miller discussed is completely overcome-able through repetitions.

Further, guys have shot well with all sorts of shooting forms. It is a bit ridiculous to compare Rondo with just Ray or Reggie. Compare him with guys who are average shooters. Look at their shooting forms. That is all we need from him.

Also, Rondo has improved a lot from early on. It may be that his hands did in fact lead him to sloppy form, but this may have mostly just made him a late bloomer. His affinity for passing may be a bigger culprit by limiting the in-game attempts that would make him more comfortable and confident. Stubbornness may also play a role if he doesn't take well to coaching on his shooting form.

Maybe part of the problem is that there is a certain point afterwhich the conventional shooting motion is counter-productive to accuracy.

[Celtics4ever]

Dirk Nowitzki can shoot.   Jordan had big hands and can shoot.   My hands are like 11 inches long from palm to finger tip by 13 wide from thumb to pinkie and I shot over 50% from three point land   31 for 60 for a season.

What do hands have to do with form?   Very little.  Form is about lining up the elbow.   Sometimes big hands guys will palm the ball unintentionally and shoot a stinker.   But it is just as easy to the L with my hand as with my elbow.  I then line up my elbow to the rim and with my right foot and viola text book form.

Although, I actually think it would be more his freakish athleticism.  He didn't have to learn to be a good shooter when he was younger, because he could just get to the rim whenever he wanted.  

This is correct.

[guava_wrench]

I am not saying its just Big Hands = Bad Shooting.  No doubt there have been players with large hands who have been decent shooters, even great shooters.  No doubt there have been players who can palm the ball very easily and still hit jumpshots (see Jordan, Michael).

But I support the idea that Big Hands can lead to Bad Shooting because large hands and being able to the palm the ball easily, like right off the catch or dribble, gives the player a unique advantage that a majority of players, particularly at young ages, do not have.  This is where bad habits - or just habits - are formed.

Maybe it is more palming and the bad habits formed by this than it is large hands in general - and of course you need large hands to palm the ball.  But I agree with Reggie that Rondo's hand size does not HELP his jumpshot percentage.

Now, this I can see a little bit.  Although, I actually think it would be more his freakish athleticism.  He didn't have to learn to be a good shooter when he was younger, because he could just get to the rim whenever he wanted. 

I don't think it is a coincidence that there are so many great shooters who are not elite athletes.  That is because they were forced to dedicate themselves to that shot, in order to be better than the guys who had more natural gifts.

Guys like Ray, who have the athleticism and the shot are incredibly rare.  It is tough to get a 15 year old to put up 500 shots a day and work on his form, when he is already dominating games against Seniors, even without a good outside shot.

The important point is that there is no significant mechanical barrier to Rondo becoming a good shooter. There are many factors that have led to him being below average from outside for a guard, but this is mostly for the same reason most centers are below average - they didn't have to rely on it in HS and even in college, so they didn't work on it enough to become elite in that skill.

Let's not forget that the average NBA outside shooter is an amazing outlier at shooting. Take away the defense and the fatigue and they are burying jumpers all day.

[footey]

I'd like to see a list of everybody's hand size before buying into this theory. 

There are a lot of tall guys that can shoot extremely well.  Among guards, Michael Jordan had large hands, and was a good shooter.  Terry Porter had very big hands, and was an excellent shooter.  Larry Bird had big hands, too, and he seemed to do okay.

Agreed.

[Chris]

I'm in the minority here, but I do buy the "large hands" theory.  It's harder to get that ball resting perfectly on your finger tips when you have large hands.  Players with very big hands can overcome that and become good shooters, but they rarely do it with that textbook Ray Allen or Steve Nash form. 

Think Magic Johnson for a good example of this.  He became a decent shooter over his career, but his form was never pretty. 

OK, I am confused.  If they have bad form, then why is it their hands that are causing the problem? 

It is like blaming your golf clubs for your slice, when you are pulling away from the ball (or something like that).  Sure, maybe you can get a new, fancier, golf club that will help to straighten it out a little, but you don't really fix things unless you fix your form.

[guava_wrench]

Dirk Nowitzki can shoot.   Jordan had big hands and can shoot.   My hands are like 11 inches long from palm to finger tip by 13 wide from thumb to pinkie and I shot over 50% from three point land   31 for 60 for a season.

What do hands have to do with form?   Very little.  Form is about lining up the elbow.   Sometimes big hands guys will palm the ball unintentionally and shoot a stinker.   But it is just as easy to the L with my hand as with my elbow.  I then line up my elbow to the rim and with my right foot and viola text book form.

Although, I actually think it would be more his freakish athleticism.  He didn't have to learn to be a good shooter when he was younger, because he could just get to the rim whenever he wanted.  

This is correct.

You make an important point. When I take off long periods of time from playing, my form can go to pot where my release changes greatly and I make too much contact with the ball. Sometimes only after a game to I realize what I was doing wrong.

Look at baseball players whose form changes during the course of a season leading to an inability to catch up with pitches. Performing at an elite level in professional sports is not easy, especially if we are talking about a particular aspect of someone's game that is not their specialty.

[Eja117]

I'm pretty sure you could give me snow gloves or possibly even flippers and with enough practice I might be able to hit free throws at a similar rate as Rondo

[guava_wrench]

I'm pretty sure you could give me snow gloves or possibly even flippers and with enough practice I might be able to hit free throws at a similar rate as Rondo

You need to run as hard as him all game and then get hit by an NBA body first to even things up a bit. And you need a large sample size since even Rondo has impressive games from the line.

[Celtics18]

I'm in the minority here, but I do buy the "large hands" theory.  It's harder to get that ball resting perfectly on your finger tips when you have large hands.  Players with very big hands can overcome that and become good shooters, but they rarely do it with that textbook Ray Allen or Steve Nash form. 

Think Magic Johnson for a good example of this.  He became a decent shooter over his career, but his form was never pretty. 

OK, I am confused.  If they have bad form, then why is it their hands that are causing the problem? 

It is like blaming your golf clubs for your slice, when you are pulling away from the ball (or something like that).  Sure, maybe you can get a new, fancier, golf club that will help to straighten it out a little, but you don't really fix things unless you fix your form.

I've never played golf, but I don't think that's a good analogy.  You can change your golf clubs, but you can't change the size of your hands.  

[Chris]

I'm in the minority here, but I do buy the "large hands" theory.  It's harder to get that ball resting perfectly on your finger tips when you have large hands.  Players with very big hands can overcome that and become good shooters, but they rarely do it with that textbook Ray Allen or Steve Nash form. 

Think Magic Johnson for a good example of this.  He became a decent shooter over his career, but his form was never pretty. 

OK, I am confused.  If they have bad form, then why is it their hands that are causing the problem? 

It is like blaming your golf clubs for your slice, when you are pulling away from the ball (or something like that).  Sure, maybe you can get a new, fancier, golf club that will help to straighten it out a little, but you don't really fix things unless you fix your form.

I've never played golf, but I don't think that's a good analogy.  You can change your golf clubs, but you can't change the size of your hands.  

Regardless of the analogy, I am still having trouble grasping how you are arguing that big hands would prevent shooters from having good form. 

Now, I can see an argument where a player could have great form, but does not shoot as well as someone like Ray Allen, because of his hands.  Then it makes sense.  But when someone has bad, or inconsistent form, that is a MAJOR confounding variable for determining whether the size of their hands are a problem.