Who is more important to the Celtics RIGHT NOW. Pierce or Rondo?

[nickagneta]

But if you're one of the many posters who think that Rondo plays shoddy defense but inexplicably limits the production of opposing point guards, so be it.

Or, as someone else suggested, maybe he was just doing what Doc wanted which was to play off his man and play the passing lanes. Knowing Doc and the way he coaches, I seriously doubt that.

  So, knowing the way Doc coaches, you're of the opinion that Rondo consistently does the opposite of what Doc wants him to without any repercussions whatsoever, not a mention from Doc and not a minute of lost playing time?

1. I'm actually not one of those posters. I think for the most part Rondo is an excellent defensive player and one of the best defensive PGs if not the best in the game.

By the same token, I'm not so blind or biased to be able to admit when Rondo has a bad defensive game or is not giving it his best defensive effort. That game, for 3.25 quarters his defense was bad and his effort lacking. And again, something you fail to address, just because the guys he leaves open or the guys his man he gets past him and dishes to an open man, don't hit their shots, doesn't mean he is playing good defense.

2. As Faf said, Doc coaches for weak side defenders to sag. Rondo sags all the time and overly so at times, like he did in game 3. In watching the ball on the weakside he loses his man a lot.

Doc does not coach for Rondo to sag strong side or when his man has possession. But Rondo does it anyway. Doc is a player's coach. He lives with his stars bad points even when he knows they are doing it against his coaching on a regular basis. That's what good coaches do with stars. So please don't bring the "then why doesn't Doc sit him if Rondo doesn't listen to him" stuff because you know as well as I that Doc coaches his stars differently than his bench players or rookies.

Has Doc ever benched Pierce for his hero ball stuff that he does all the time?

Did Doc ever bench KG for his taunting and extra curricula antics that he pulls all the time?

Did Doc ever bench Ray for his need to bring the ball up after rebounding it and look for his own shot so often over the last few years?

Sometimes stars do stuff that against the coaches wishes and the coach has to live with it because its just plain stupid to bench the stars that are going to win you the game.

[BballTim]

But if you're one of the many posters who think that Rondo plays shoddy defense but inexplicably limits the production of opposing point guards, so be it.

Or, as someone else suggested, maybe he was just doing what Doc wanted which was to play off his man and play the passing lanes. Knowing Doc and the way he coaches, I seriously doubt that.

  So, knowing the way Doc coaches, you're of the opinion that Rondo consistently does the opposite of what Doc wants him to without any repercussions whatsoever, not a mention from Doc and not a minute of lost playing time?

1. I'm actually not one of those posters. I think for the most part Rondo is an excellent defensive player and one of the best defensive PGs if not the best in the game.

  My mistake. Everything I see you post about Rondo's defense is negative.

By the same token, I'm not so blind or biased to be able to admit when Rondo has a bad defensive game or is not giving it his best defensive effort. That game, for 3.25 quarters his defense was bad and his effort lacking. And again, something you fail to address, just because the guys he leaves open or the guys his man he gets past him and dishes to an open man, don't hit their shots, doesn't mean he is playing good defense.

  I'm not blind or biased, I just don't let what I read here influence my opinions. I saw Rondo get beat by Teague a few times in the 3rd quarter just like you did, but I didn't think that constituted awful defense because I'm aware that everyone gets beat some of the time, and most players get beat more often than Rondo.

  I missed some of the second half, but Rondo was on Teague quite a bit in the first half and I don't think he drove past Rondo at all, and I know that he didn't score in any of those possessions. Most of the time he didn't even try and drive past Rondo, passing the ball to someone else on the perimeter instead. Rondo played 20 minutes in the first half, had a couple of steals, probably created a turnover or two beyond that and gave up a basket and possibly a couple of free throws when he was trying to guard JJ or TMac.

  I don't think that, along with a couple of missed threes by players he was guarding when he was helping off of them constitutes god awful defense. I'd think that, for god awful defense, people would have to either score more than a handful of points or get more than a handful of assists against him in 49 minutes of play, but that's just me.

2. As Faf said, Doc coaches for weak side defenders to sag. Rondo sags all the time and overly so at times, like he did in game 3. In watching the ball on the weakside he loses his man a lot.

Doc does not coach for Rondo to sag strong side or when his man has possession. But Rondo does it anyway. Doc is a player's coach. He lives with his stars bad points even when he knows they are doing it against his coaching on a regular basis. That's what good coaches do with stars. So please don't bring the "then why doesn't Doc sit him if Rondo doesn't listen to him" stuff because you know as well as I that Doc coaches his stars differently than his bench players or rookies.

Has Doc ever benched Pierce for his hero ball stuff that he does all the time?

Did Doc ever bench KG for his taunting and extra curricula antics that he pulls all the time?

Did Doc ever bench Ray for his need to bring the ball up after rebounding it and look for his own shot so often over the last few years?

Sometimes stars do stuff that against the coaches wishes and the coach has to live with it because its just plain stupid to bench the stars that are going to win you the game.

  I've seen Doc bench PP before, I've heard him complain about KG many times before and I've heard him criticize Rondo before, even Rondo's defense.

[nickagneta]

  I'm not biased,

My mistake. I have never seen you do anything except argue with people until they give up as you go on and on in Rondo's defense about any part of his game without ever admitting Rondo might have flaws.

That kind of makes me think people aren't being objective and have a clear bias. My bad.

[BballTim]

  I'm not biased,

My mistake. I have never seen you do anything except argue with people until they give up as you go on and on in Rondo's defense about any part of his game without ever admitting Rondo might have flaws.

That kind of makes me think people aren't being objective and have a clear bias. My bad.

  I'll stay with my statement. I say things like "Rondo gets beat on defense at times, but not as often as most point guards" or "Rondo's lack of a jumper has a negative effect on our offense, but his passing, vision and ability to run the offense more than make up for it and he has a net positive impact on our offense". Clearly that's not objective and shows that I don't think Rondo has any flaws. Forgive me for not agreeing that Rondo playing a half where he doesn't get beat off the dribble and forces more turnovers than the total points that are scored against him constitutes god awful defense.

[nickagneta]

  I'm not biased,

My mistake. I have never seen you do anything except argue with people until they give up as you go on and on in Rondo's defense about any part of his game without ever admitting Rondo might have flaws.

That kind of makes me think people aren't being objective and have a clear bias. My bad.

  I'll stay with my statement. I say things like "Rondo gets beat on defense at times, but not as often as most point guards" or "Rondo's lack of a jumper has a negative effect on our offense, but his passing, vision and ability to run the offense more than make up for it and he has a net positive impact on our offense". Clearly that's not objective and shows that I don't think Rondo has any flaws. Forgive me for not agreeing that Rondo playing a half where he doesn't get beat off the dribble and forces more turnovers than the total points that are scored against him constitutes god awful defense.

You're forgiven.

TP for the debate.

[BballTim]

  I'm not biased,

My mistake. I have never seen you do anything except argue with people until they give up as you go on and on in Rondo's defense about any part of his game without ever admitting Rondo might have flaws.

That kind of makes me think people aren't being objective and have a clear bias. My bad.

  I'll stay with my statement. I say things like "Rondo gets beat on defense at times, but not as often as most point guards" or "Rondo's lack of a jumper has a negative effect on our offense, but his passing, vision and ability to run the offense more than make up for it and he has a net positive impact on our offense". Clearly that's not objective and shows that I don't think Rondo has any flaws. Forgive me for not agreeing that Rondo playing a half where he doesn't get beat off the dribble and forces more turnovers than the total points that are scored against him constitutes god awful defense.

You're forgiven.

TP for the debate.

  Haha. That's very big of you, TP.