Who is more important to the Celtics RIGHT NOW. Pierce or Rondo?

[wdleehi]

KG >  Pierce  >  Rondo.



Celtics can not afford to lose any of them.

[Celtics18]

KG >  Pierce  >  Rondo.



Celtics can not afford to lose any of them.

KG=Pierce=Rondo.

Celtics can not afford to lose any of them.

[BballTim]

  In the 2012 playoffs we're a +1.5 net (ORtg - DRtg) with PP on the bench, last year we were a +0.9 with him on the bench. With Rondo, in 2012 playoffs we're a -0.9 net when he's on the bench, last year we were a -30 net without him. This year we're a -23.5 with KG on the bench. I think that aside from KG this year we've been worse with Rondo out of the game than we've been with any of the big three out in each of the last 4 playoffs.

[nickagneta]

I'll take him just the way he is....except with a bit more focused defense.

  FWIW, Teague's game 3 highlights were up on youtube. He made 9 shots, Rondo was only guarding him on 2 of them. I still don't see how that amounts to awful defense.

Its the way he plays off his man and allows him to shoot open shots, penetrate and create and get out of position for rotational defense.

Rondo wasn't playing solely on Teague that night and his poor defense wasn't resulting in just Teague scoring. Often his man gets by him leading to a rotation from the big men and leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man. Or because another guy rotates it leads to someone else wide open and Rondo way out of position to help on that player.

Rondo also has left his man wide open for many, many wide open looks which have been missed. If he was guarding a shooter like JJ Reddick or Kobe or Rip Hamilton or Rose, those guys would be constantly scoring big.

Listen, I love the guy but be objective here BBall. He plays way off his guys to play the passing lanes. He leaves his guys wide open for shots and his guy often blows by him leaving the big men to try to pick up his mistake. This often leads to layups or dish offs for layups dish outs for open shots. When he loses the ball offensively the first thing he does is complain to a ref instead of getting back on transition defense. His rotations are the slowest on the team and he's the fastest guy on the team.

I love him but I loved his defense from 3-4 years ago better when he was a more in your face, stuck to your man defender and not this roaming safety type defensive player he has become.

Jeff Teague isn't Reddick or Kobe or Rip Hamilton.  Rondo plays off Teague and Hinrich to help on Joe Johnson and Josh Smith and to disrupt passing lanes. 

When players sag off Rondo, everyone seems to think it's a great defensive strategy, but when we employ that strategy on prove-it-to-me shooters, it's terrible D.

Rondo is one of the best in the league at playing that free safety type defense.  He makes things happen and disrupts flow.  Sure, he gives up a couple of open looks to mediocre shooters during a game, but the pay off in disruptiveness more than makes up for that.   

Also, very infrequently do you see guys break Rondo down off the dribble without the help of picks.  Good high picks will allow guards to get in the lane, though.  When that happens the big and the guard have to be on the same page.  It's difficult to stop, but we have one of the best pick and roll defenses going.  Having Kevin Garnett doesn't hurt in that department.

This just isn't true.

Rondo always plays way of his man. This isn't something that has happened just for this series. He leaves just about every man he guards wide open for outside shots regardless of who he is playing against. If we play Philly next series you can be sure he will be playing way of Holiday, Williams and Meeks even though its not very smart to do that as they are all 36% or higher 3PT shooters. About the only time he plays tight defense is if he is playing a top PG like Williams, Paul or Rose.

Also, we see the "ole, I'm going to attempt to knock the ball out from behind as my man blows by me" move at least 2-3 times per game and we see another 1-2 times where he isn't even trying the "ole" move. This isn't something new. He's been doing it for a couple years.

Players sag off Rondo because he can't shoot very good from three. Hinrich, Pargo and teague are all 34% or higher three point shooters. You don't give those guys three pointers. You shouldn't give the Philly guards that room either.But a guy like Rondo who is a reluctant 3 point shooter that only hits at a 23% rate...you sag off of him.

[makaveli]

This Celtics are the very definition of a basketball team, they are a symbiosis, you take one of them out, you aren't going nowhere...
but if I had do choose, I would say PP is the best and MVP of the Celtics...

[nickagneta]

I'll take him just the way he is....except with a bit more focused defense.

  FWIW, Teague's game 3 highlights were up on youtube. He made 9 shots, Rondo was only guarding him on 2 of them. I still don't see how that amounts to awful defense.

Its the way he plays off his man and allows him to shoot open shots, penetrate and create and get out of position for rotational defense.

Rondo wasn't playing solely on Teague that night and his poor defense wasn't resulting in just Teague scoring. Often his man gets by him leading to a rotation from the big men and leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man. Or because another guy rotates it leads to someone else wide open and Rondo way out of position to help on that player.

Rondo also has left his man wide open for many, many wide open looks which have been missed. If he was guarding a shooter like JJ Reddick or Kobe or Rip Hamilton or Rose, those guys would be constantly scoring big.

Listen, I love the guy but be objective here BBall. He plays way off his guys to play the passing lanes. He leaves his guys wide open for shots and his guy often blows by him leaving the big men to try to pick up his mistake. This often leads to layups or dish offs for layups dish outs for open shots. When he loses the ball offensively the first thing he does is complain to a ref instead of getting back on transition defense. His rotations are the slowest on the team and he's the fastest guy on the team.

I love him but I loved his defense from 3-4 years ago better when he was a more in your face, stuck to your man defender and not this roaming safety type defensive player he has become.

  First of all, Teague was the only pg that even made a basket in that game. When Rondo was guarding Hinrich or Pargo they did next to nothing, Teague did close to that. Rondo gave up a basket every 12 minutes or so and you're slamming him for that.

  Not only does Teague rarely blow by Rondo, he hardly every tries, generally passing the ball to someone else on the perimeter. Players beat Rondo on occasion, but less than you'll see from any other pg. PGs that play against Rondo only take about a quarter of their shots from the inside, which is a fairly low total. PGs that he plays against get the fewest or close to the fewest assists per48 every year, so there's not a ton of "leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man" going on either.

  I will agree that Rondo frequently leaves his man to play the passing lanes, but that's a good thing as he's one of the best in the league in disrupting opponent's offenses. It's true that he roams at times on defense, but I seriously doubt that he's doing something that Doc doesn't want him to.

Just because the men he was guarding were missing WIDE open shots due to his bad defense, doesn't mean he wasn't playing bad defense. Pargo and Hinrich, who Rondo was responsible for for long periods of time during the first half as well as Teague, were 0 for 7 in that game and 0 for 5 from 3 point land. If those shots were dropping they would have shot more.

Sorry, BBall, a player can play bad defense and still have decent results which, in watching that game, is exactly what happened. Rondo's defense in the late 4th and OT was miles better than earlier in that game but overall he had a bad game defensively.

Or, as someone else suggested, maybe he was just doing what Doc wanted which was to play off his man and play the passing lanes. Knowing Doc and the way he coaches, I seriously doubt that.

[Fafnir]

Also, we see the "ole, I'm going to attempt to knock the ball out from behind as my man blows by me" move at least 2-3 times per game and we see another 1-2 times where he isn't even trying the "ole" move. This isn't something new. He's been doing it for a couple years.

Everyone gets beat on the perimeter, especially when they're worried about the pick the other way or actively picked off.

If you watch carefully even your binkie gets beat off the dribble and has to recover from a trail position. Would you rather Rondo not try and poke the ball loose at that point?

Rondo sags off his man because that's in large part how the C's play defense. They overload the strong side and when they do that the two weakside defenders have to sag down near the paint to be in help position. They have to be ready to rotate to the paint or run out and contest a long jump on any of three players that they have to defend.

Rondo's definitely a ball watcher on D and will gamble, but he certainly didn't play a bad defensive game last night.

[Celtics18]

I'll take him just the way he is....except with a bit more focused defense.

  FWIW, Teague's game 3 highlights were up on youtube. He made 9 shots, Rondo was only guarding him on 2 of them. I still don't see how that amounts to awful defense.

Its the way he plays off his man and allows him to shoot open shots, penetrate and create and get out of position for rotational defense.

Rondo wasn't playing solely on Teague that night and his poor defense wasn't resulting in just Teague scoring. Often his man gets by him leading to a rotation from the big men and leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man. Or because another guy rotates it leads to someone else wide open and Rondo way out of position to help on that player.

Rondo also has left his man wide open for many, many wide open looks which have been missed. If he was guarding a shooter like JJ Reddick or Kobe or Rip Hamilton or Rose, those guys would be constantly scoring big.

Listen, I love the guy but be objective here BBall. He plays way off his guys to play the passing lanes. He leaves his guys wide open for shots and his guy often blows by him leaving the big men to try to pick up his mistake. This often leads to layups or dish offs for layups dish outs for open shots. When he loses the ball offensively the first thing he does is complain to a ref instead of getting back on transition defense. His rotations are the slowest on the team and he's the fastest guy on the team.

I love him but I loved his defense from 3-4 years ago better when he was a more in your face, stuck to your man defender and not this roaming safety type defensive player he has become.

  First of all, Teague was the only pg that even made a basket in that game. When Rondo was guarding Hinrich or Pargo they did next to nothing, Teague did close to that. Rondo gave up a basket every 12 minutes or so and you're slamming him for that.

  Not only does Teague rarely blow by Rondo, he hardly every tries, generally passing the ball to someone else on the perimeter. Players beat Rondo on occasion, but less than you'll see from any other pg. PGs that play against Rondo only take about a quarter of their shots from the inside, which is a fairly low total. PGs that he plays against get the fewest or close to the fewest assists per48 every year, so there's not a ton of "leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man" going on either.

  I will agree that Rondo frequently leaves his man to play the passing lanes, but that's a good thing as he's one of the best in the league in disrupting opponent's offenses. It's true that he roams at times on defense, but I seriously doubt that he's doing something that Doc doesn't want him to.

Just because the men he was guarding were missing WIDE open shots due to his bad defense, doesn't mean he wasn't playing bad defense. Pargo and Hinrich, who Rondo was responsible for for long periods of time during the first half as well as Teague, were 0 for 7 in that game and 0 for 5 from 3 point land. If those shots were dropping they would have shot more.

Sorry, BBall, a player can play bad defense and still have decent results which, in watching that game, is exactly what happened. Rondo's defense in the late 4th and OT was miles better than earlier in that game but overall he had a bad game defensively.

Or, as someone else suggested, maybe he was just doing what Doc wanted which was to play off his man and play the passing lanes. Knowing Doc and the way he coaches, I seriously doubt that.

Actually, I believe that Doc does want Rondo playing the passing lanes at times.  I think he gets a certain amount of freedom to roam because Doc knows how disruptive he can be to the opposition.  It's a gamble worth taking.

If the opposition's guards are consistently missing open jumpers, I think you let them keep shooting them, no?  How is that bad defense?  

[Fafnir]

Actually, I believe that Doc does want Rondo playing the passing lanes at times.  I think he gets a certain amount of freedom to roam because Doc knows how disruptive he can be to the opposition.  It's a gamble worth taking.

I think Doc is all for it when done smartly, he definitely doesn't like how often Rondo takes chances. (when he's getting overly "helpful" on D)

Most of all Doc lives with it, he knows how Rondo plays and has adjusted things accordingly. That's why Avery Bradley has standing orders to sprint back on D every possession to balance the floor, Doc knows Rondo will freelance for offensive boards frequently enough to make it a necessity for the off guard to run back.

[Fafnir]

Hmm, I just realized you two were refering to Game 3. I don't recall thinking Rondo played good defense that game, but I didn't recall it being bad either. Overall Teague was just getting to the paint too much. Last night I was very happy with how he played on that end of the court.

[BballTim]

I'll take him just the way he is....except with a bit more focused defense.

  FWIW, Teague's game 3 highlights were up on youtube. He made 9 shots, Rondo was only guarding him on 2 of them. I still don't see how that amounts to awful defense.

Its the way he plays off his man and allows him to shoot open shots, penetrate and create and get out of position for rotational defense.

Rondo wasn't playing solely on Teague that night and his poor defense wasn't resulting in just Teague scoring. Often his man gets by him leading to a rotation from the big men and leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man. Or because another guy rotates it leads to someone else wide open and Rondo way out of position to help on that player.

Rondo also has left his man wide open for many, many wide open looks which have been missed. If he was guarding a shooter like JJ Reddick or Kobe or Rip Hamilton or Rose, those guys would be constantly scoring big.

Listen, I love the guy but be objective here BBall. He plays way off his guys to play the passing lanes. He leaves his guys wide open for shots and his guy often blows by him leaving the big men to try to pick up his mistake. This often leads to layups or dish offs for layups dish outs for open shots. When he loses the ball offensively the first thing he does is complain to a ref instead of getting back on transition defense. His rotations are the slowest on the team and he's the fastest guy on the team.

I love him but I loved his defense from 3-4 years ago better when he was a more in your face, stuck to your man defender and not this roaming safety type defensive player he has become.

  First of all, Teague was the only pg that even made a basket in that game. When Rondo was guarding Hinrich or Pargo they did next to nothing, Teague did close to that. Rondo gave up a basket every 12 minutes or so and you're slamming him for that.

  Not only does Teague rarely blow by Rondo, he hardly every tries, generally passing the ball to someone else on the perimeter. Players beat Rondo on occasion, but less than you'll see from any other pg. PGs that play against Rondo only take about a quarter of their shots from the inside, which is a fairly low total. PGs that he plays against get the fewest or close to the fewest assists per48 every year, so there's not a ton of "leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man" going on either.

  I will agree that Rondo frequently leaves his man to play the passing lanes, but that's a good thing as he's one of the best in the league in disrupting opponent's offenses. It's true that he roams at times on defense, but I seriously doubt that he's doing something that Doc doesn't want him to.

Just because the men he was guarding were missing WIDE open shots due to his bad defense, doesn't mean he wasn't playing bad defense. Pargo and Hinrich, who Rondo was responsible for for long periods of time during the first half as well as Teague, were 0 for 7 in that game and 0 for 5 from 3 point land. If those shots were dropping they would have shot more.

Sorry, BBall, a player can play bad defense and still have decent results which, in watching that game, is exactly what happened. Rondo's defense in the late 4th and OT was miles better than earlier in that game but overall he had a bad game defensively.

  First of all, I doubt Rondo was covering those two for every one of those threes. Secondly, if they started hitting them he'd stay closer to them. Thirdly, from synergy sports, people that Rondo was guarding hit just over 30% of their threes, I think that we can live with that. Also, while playing the defense that he does, Rondo had 4 steals and forces turnovers/disrupts plays beyond that as well, so when you evaluate his game you have to add in all those plays as well as what his man does. It adds up to quite an impact overall. But if you're one of the many posters who think that Rondo plays shoddy defense but inexplicably limits the production of opposing point guards, so be it.

Or, as someone else suggested, maybe he was just doing what Doc wanted which was to play off his man and play the passing lanes. Knowing Doc and the way he coaches, I seriously doubt that.

  So, knowing the way Doc coaches, you're of the opinion that Rondo consistently does the opposite of what Doc wants him to without any repercussions whatsoever, not a mention from Doc and not a minute of lost playing time?

[BballTim]

Actually, I believe that Doc does want Rondo playing the passing lanes at times.  I think he gets a certain amount of freedom to roam because Doc knows how disruptive he can be to the opposition.  It's a gamble worth taking.

I think Doc is all for it when done smartly, he definitely doesn't like how often Rondo takes chances. (when he's getting overly "helpful" on D)

Most of all Doc lives with it, he knows how Rondo plays and has adjusted things accordingly. That's why Avery Bradley has standing orders to sprint back on D every possession to balance the floor, Doc knows Rondo will freelance for offensive boards frequently enough to make it a necessity for the off guard to run back.

  I'd say that Rondo gets back first at least as often as Bradley, but if you were going to have one of Rondo or Bradley go for offensive boards, which would you choose?

[Fafnir]

Actually, I believe that Doc does want Rondo playing the passing lanes at times.  I think he gets a certain amount of freedom to roam because Doc knows how disruptive he can be to the opposition.  It's a gamble worth taking.

I think Doc is all for it when done smartly, he definitely doesn't like how often Rondo takes chances. (when he's getting overly "helpful" on D)

Most of all Doc lives with it, he knows how Rondo plays and has adjusted things accordingly. That's why Avery Bradley has standing orders to sprint back on D every possession to balance the floor, Doc knows Rondo will freelance for offensive boards frequently enough to make it a necessity for the off guard to run back.

  I'd say that Rondo gets back first at least as often as Bradley, but if you were going to have one of Rondo or Bradley go for offensive boards, which would you choose?

Rondo of course, which is why he has the green light to crash when he sees he has an angle or thinks he can sneak up on whomever got the board and get a steal.

Most of the time he gets back on defense, but he'll go hunting for the ball a lot too. Bradley basically never crashes the offensive glass, because other than Rondo I don't think Doc wants any of our guards to do so.

Obviously floor balance is something that Doc still expects the Celtics players to pay attention too.

[BballTim]

Actually, I believe that Doc does want Rondo playing the passing lanes at times.  I think he gets a certain amount of freedom to roam because Doc knows how disruptive he can be to the opposition.  It's a gamble worth taking.

I think Doc is all for it when done smartly, he definitely doesn't like how often Rondo takes chances. (when he's getting overly "helpful" on D)

Most of all Doc lives with it, he knows how Rondo plays and has adjusted things accordingly. That's why Avery Bradley has standing orders to sprint back on D every possession to balance the floor, Doc knows Rondo will freelance for offensive boards frequently enough to make it a necessity for the off guard to run back.

  I'd say that Rondo gets back first at least as often as Bradley, but if you were going to have one of Rondo or Bradley go for offensive boards, which would you choose?

Rondo of course, which is why he has the green light to crash when he sees he has an angle or thinks he can sneak up on whomever got the board and get a steal.

Most of the time he gets back on defense, but he'll go hunting for the ball a lot too. Bradley basically never crashes the offensive glass, because other than Rondo I don't think Doc wants any of our guards to do so.

Obviously floor balance is something that Doc still expects the Celtics players to pay attention too.

  I think Rondo has the green light because Bradley's in the game with him, when Ray was starting with him he concentrated more on getting back before anyone else did.

[nickagneta]

Rondo's definitely a ball watcher on D and will gamble, but he certainly didn't play a bad defensive game last night.

You are right. last night he didn't. I was talking about the game before.