Who is more important to the Celtics RIGHT NOW. Pierce or Rondo?

[2short]

This thread is the anti Ubuntu.  I abstained from voting as there wasn't a choice for both.

We have three team MVPs and we'll need all three of them to get where we want to go.

Next season will come, and the one after that, and the one after that.  I'm busy enjoying this one.  
Not picking favorites, and trying to pit the hard cores against each other over our Celtics.

tp!

[thirstyboots18]

Here's a good way to think about this question:

It's game 7 of the NBA finals. You need to choose to not have either Pierce or Rondo for this game. Who do you play?

I think, without question, you play Pierce in this game and leave Rondo out. I trust Pierce to carry the team on his back. Rondo is not a go-to guy. I think we need Rondo in the long-run because he gets everyone easy shots and keeps them from getting worn out. But I trust Pierce to get this team a win any day of the week.

I agree 100%.

Rondo had a great game tonight.  His shot was falling which is rare.  And he had his typical 16 assists.  A lot of those assists were due to Paul Pierce.  Not so difficult getting 16 assists when Paul Pierce is going 10-13 in 17 minutes.  I think what it comes down to, in my mind, is who needs who more?  Rondo needs guys like Pierce, Ray, KG and Bass to hit shots in order for him to get his 15 assists.  Pierce doesn't exactly NEED Rondo in order to put points on the board, though. 

  You keep saying that Rondo needs players like PP/RA/KG to get his assists. Why don't you show us that it's true? Ray was out of the lineup for a good long stretch, why not show us how Rondo's assist totals plummeted during that time?

Great point, I believe they said Rondo's assists last night were split among 7 players last night.   BTW, great game ...can't remember the last good blow out by the Celtics, and it was nice to see.

[CelticG1]

Here's a good way to think about this question:

It's game 7 of the NBA finals. You need to choose to not have either Pierce or Rondo for this game. Who do you play?

I think, without question, you play Pierce in this game and leave Rondo out. I trust Pierce to carry the team on his back. Rondo is not a go-to guy. I think we need Rondo in the long-run because he gets everyone easy shots and keeps them from getting worn out. But I trust Pierce to get this team a win any day of the week.

I agree 100%.

Rondo had a great game tonight.  His shot was falling which is rare.  And he had his typical 16 assists.  A lot of those assists were due to Paul Pierce.  Not so difficult getting 16 assists when Paul Pierce is going 10-13 in 17 minutes.  I think what it comes down to, in my mind, is who needs who more?  Rondo needs guys like Pierce, Ray, KG and Bass to hit shots in order for him to get his 15 assists.  Pierce doesn't exactly NEED Rondo in order to put points on the board, though. 

  You keep saying that Rondo needs players like PP/RA/KG to get his assists. Why don't you show us that it's true? Ray was out of the lineup for a good long stretch, why not show us how Rondo's assist totals plummeted during that time?

Great point, I believe they said Rondo's assists last night were split among 7 players last night.   BTW, great game ...can't remember the last good blow out by the Celtics, and it was nice to see.

I don't really get that line of thinking either. Jose Calderon averages a bunch of assists with a crappy team. Same with Steve Nash and Deron this year. Chris Paul did it with crappy players.

Think about how many assists Rondo gets with just Bass and Bradley alone.

[Bankshot]

I'll take Pierce.  I don't think we need "the best pg in the league" to win, just a capable point guard, but we do need someone who can carry the team offensively and take over a game when needed.  That's not Rondo.  That's not a knock on Rondo though.

[Celtics18]

I'll take Pierce.  I don't think we need "the best pg in the league" to win, just a capable point guard, but we do need someone who can carry the team offensively and take over a game when needed.  That's not Rondo.  That's not a knock on Rondo though.

You don't think Rajon Rondo can "take over a game when needed."? 

[CelticG1]

I'll take Pierce.  I don't think we need "the best pg in the league" to win, just a capable point guard, but we do need someone who can carry the team offensively and take over a game when needed.  That's not Rondo.  That's not a knock on Rondo though.

You don't think Rajon Rondo can "take over a game when needed."? 

I think he means scoring wise like in game 2. Pierce can really carry a team by himself. He generate offense single handedly. Rondo generates scoring for others but at the end of the day he has to rely on his teammates to make shots. Pierce just needs to rely on himself.

I think if our team is struggling on offense Pierce can do a better job getting us out of that slump than Rondo.

Like everyone has said both along with KG are extremely important and everyone has different opinions. There's no definitive argument one way or the other. Im sure even Doc would have trouble picking one of those 3

[nickagneta]

I'll take Pierce.  I don't think we need "the best pg in the league" to win, just a capable point guard, but we do need someone who can carry the team offensively and take over a game when needed.  That's not Rondo.  That's not a knock on Rondo though.

You don't think Rajon Rondo can "take over a game when needed."? 

I think the scoring first mentality that Allen Iverson created in this generation of smaller back court players has caused so many people to think that suddenly the PG position needs to be a scoring position.

Historically its never been a scoring position for the best teams in the NBA. Its been the position that runs the offense and gets your other players in the best position to score and be efficient. I don't want a Derrick Rose or Russell Westbrook type PG running this team. Its offense works best when the PG is running the offense and when the PG's offense comes in the normal flow of the game.

I like Rondo just the way he is. His scoring is fine and I think there are very few times a year that a specific player has to suddenly become THE scorer that night. I'll take him just the way he is....except with a bit more focused defense.

[Celtics18]

I'll take Pierce.  I don't think we need "the best pg in the league" to win, just a capable point guard, but we do need someone who can carry the team offensively and take over a game when needed.  That's not Rondo.  That's not a knock on Rondo though.

You don't think Rajon Rondo can "take over a game when needed."? 

I think he means scoring wise like in game 2. Pierce can really carry a team by himself. He generate offense single handedly. Rondo generates scoring for others but at the end of the day he has to rely on his teammates to make shots. Pierce just needs to rely on himself.

I think if our team is struggling on offense Pierce can do a better job getting us out of that slump than Rondo.

Like everyone has said both along with KG are extremely important and everyone has different opinions. There's no definitive argument one way or the other. Im sure even Doc would have trouble picking one of those 3

Don't take this as any kind of disparagement of Paul Pierce, but if we were to rely on our Captain to play the way he did in game two on most nights, we wouldn't get very far.  

I vastly prefer "team ball" to "hero ball."  Not only do I think it's a more aesthetically pleasing brand of basketball, but ultimately, I think it's more effective.  To successfully play the brand of basketball which the Boston Celtics are known for, each of our three top players are of equal importance.  

[BballTim]

I'll take him just the way he is....except with a bit more focused defense.

  FWIW, Teague's game 3 highlights were up on youtube. He made 9 shots, Rondo was only guarding him on 2 of them. I still don't see how that amounts to awful defense.

[Chris]

Pierce is more important.  But we aren't going anywhere without them both healthy and playing well.

[nickagneta]

I'll take him just the way he is....except with a bit more focused defense.

  FWIW, Teague's game 3 highlights were up on youtube. He made 9 shots, Rondo was only guarding him on 2 of them. I still don't see how that amounts to awful defense.

Its the way he plays off his man and allows him to shoot open shots, penetrate and create and get out of position for rotational defense.

Rondo wasn't playing solely on Teague that night and his poor defense wasn't resulting in just Teague scoring. Often his man gets by him leading to a rotation from the big men and leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man. Or because another guy rotates it leads to someone else wide open and Rondo way out of position to help on that player.

Rondo also has left his man wide open for many, many wide open looks which have been missed. If he was guarding a shooter like JJ Reddick or Kobe or Rip Hamilton or Rose, those guys would be constantly scoring big.

Listen, I love the guy but be objective here BBall. He plays way off his guys to play the passing lanes. He leaves his guys wide open for shots and his guy often blows by him leaving the big men to try to pick up his mistake. This often leads to layups or dish offs for layups dish outs for open shots. When he loses the ball offensively the first thing he does is complain to a ref instead of getting back on transition defense. His rotations are the slowest on the team and he's the fastest guy on the team.

I love him but I loved his defense from 3-4 years ago better when he was a more in your face, stuck to your man defender and not this roaming safety type defensive player he has become.

[guava_wrench]

I'll take Pierce.  I don't think we need "the best pg in the league" to win, just a capable point guard, but we do need someone who can carry the team offensively and take over a game when needed.  That's not Rondo.  That's not a knock on Rondo though.

You don't think Rajon Rondo can "take over a game when needed."? 

I think he means scoring wise like in game 2. Pierce can really carry a team by himself. He generate offense single handedly. Rondo generates scoring for others but at the end of the day he has to rely on his teammates to make shots. Pierce just needs to rely on himself.

I think if our team is struggling on offense Pierce can do a better job getting us out of that slump than Rondo.

Like everyone has said both along with KG are extremely important and everyone has different opinions. There's no definitive argument one way or the other. Im sure even Doc would have trouble picking one of those 3

Pierce can also start Heisman trophying people in the chest for offensive fouls, turning over his dribble, or passing the ball into nowhereland in key late game situations.

I seem to remember many games where our loss of effectiveness almost completely coincided with Rondo's sitting on the bench for rest.

I feel they are both so important to the team that this kind of analysis is pointless. Right now we are in the playoffs and we are sunk without either against the top teams.

[Celtics18]

I'll take him just the way he is....except with a bit more focused defense.

  FWIW, Teague's game 3 highlights were up on youtube. He made 9 shots, Rondo was only guarding him on 2 of them. I still don't see how that amounts to awful defense.

Its the way he plays off his man and allows him to shoot open shots, penetrate and create and get out of position for rotational defense.

Rondo wasn't playing solely on Teague that night and his poor defense wasn't resulting in just Teague scoring. Often his man gets by him leading to a rotation from the big men and leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man. Or because another guy rotates it leads to someone else wide open and Rondo way out of position to help on that player.

Rondo also has left his man wide open for many, many wide open looks which have been missed. If he was guarding a shooter like JJ Reddick or Kobe or Rip Hamilton or Rose, those guys would be constantly scoring big.

Listen, I love the guy but be objective here BBall. He plays way off his guys to play the passing lanes. He leaves his guys wide open for shots and his guy often blows by him leaving the big men to try to pick up his mistake. This often leads to layups or dish offs for layups dish outs for open shots. When he loses the ball offensively the first thing he does is complain to a ref instead of getting back on transition defense. His rotations are the slowest on the team and he's the fastest guy on the team.

I love him but I loved his defense from 3-4 years ago better when he was a more in your face, stuck to your man defender and not this roaming safety type defensive player he has become.

Jeff Teague isn't Reddick or Kobe or Rip Hamilton.  Rondo plays off Teague and Hinrich to help on Joe Johnson and Josh Smith and to disrupt passing lanes. 

When players sag off Rondo, everyone seems to think it's a great defensive strategy, but when we employ that strategy on prove-it-to-me shooters, it's terrible D.

Rondo is one of the best in the league at playing that free safety type defense.  He makes things happen and disrupts flow.  Sure, he gives up a couple of open looks to mediocre shooters during a game, but the pay off in disruptiveness more than makes up for that.   

Also, very infrequently do you see guys break Rondo down off the dribble without the help of picks.  Good high picks will allow guards to get in the lane, though.  When that happens the big and the guard have to be on the same page.  It's difficult to stop, but we have one of the best pick and roll defenses going.  Having Kevin Garnett doesn't hurt in that department.

[Donoghus]

Pierce.

But if the Celtics lose either guy, they're screwed.

[BballTim]

I'll take him just the way he is....except with a bit more focused defense.

  FWIW, Teague's game 3 highlights were up on youtube. He made 9 shots, Rondo was only guarding him on 2 of them. I still don't see how that amounts to awful defense.

Its the way he plays off his man and allows him to shoot open shots, penetrate and create and get out of position for rotational defense.

Rondo wasn't playing solely on Teague that night and his poor defense wasn't resulting in just Teague scoring. Often his man gets by him leading to a rotation from the big men and leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man. Or because another guy rotates it leads to someone else wide open and Rondo way out of position to help on that player.

Rondo also has left his man wide open for many, many wide open looks which have been missed. If he was guarding a shooter like JJ Reddick or Kobe or Rip Hamilton or Rose, those guys would be constantly scoring big.

Listen, I love the guy but be objective here BBall. He plays way off his guys to play the passing lanes. He leaves his guys wide open for shots and his guy often blows by him leaving the big men to try to pick up his mistake. This often leads to layups or dish offs for layups dish outs for open shots. When he loses the ball offensively the first thing he does is complain to a ref instead of getting back on transition defense. His rotations are the slowest on the team and he's the fastest guy on the team.

I love him but I loved his defense from 3-4 years ago better when he was a more in your face, stuck to your man defender and not this roaming safety type defensive player he has become.

  First of all, Teague was the only pg that even made a basket in that game. When Rondo was guarding Hinrich or Pargo they did next to nothing, Teague did close to that. Rondo gave up a basket every 12 minutes or so and you're slamming him for that.

  Not only does Teague rarely blow by Rondo, he hardly every tries, generally passing the ball to someone else on the perimeter. Players beat Rondo on occasion, but less than you'll see from any other pg. PGs that play against Rondo only take about a quarter of their shots from the inside, which is a fairly low total. PGs that he plays against get the fewest or close to the fewest assists per48 every year, so there's not a ton of "leaves a man underneath wide open for a pass from Rondo's man" going on either.

  I will agree that Rondo frequently leaves his man to play the passing lanes, but that's a good thing as he's one of the best in the league in disrupting opponent's offenses. It's true that he roams at times on defense, but I seriously doubt that he's doing something that Doc doesn't want him to.