Metta World Peace / Artest Cheap Shot (merged threads)

[hwangjini_1]

7 games is ok, but unfortunately I just don't think that until someone gets punished GOOD will some of these repeat offenders get it in their heads - "Wow. They nailed Metta. I'd better NOT give someone a cheapshot."

Once a player has a psychological fear that they must behave, they will behave.

I actually don't think harsh punishment works as a deterrent like you think it will.

I disagree. Harsh penalties aren't good deterrents only when the offender doesn't think he'll incur the penalty. For example, the death sentence has been proven to be an ineffective deterrent because 1) the murderer thinks he can get away with it, 2) it's a crime of passion and he's not thinking at all, or 3) he's mentally handicapped (mentally handicapped individuals account for a surprisingly high number of violent crimes).

However, punching someone on national television is pretty much the opposite of that. Nobody has the illusion that they're going to get away with it, and while players might get angry during a basketball game almost never do they get angry enough to legitimately lose all self-control. Comically enough, it's the 3rd factor which would probably cause Artest to fail to be deterred. But for 99% of the other players who don't have serious mental issues, yeah, a stiff penalty would be an ineffective deterrent.

To illustrate the point, we can make plenty of comparisons to similar situations. The easiest point to make is to just look at how many fist fights there are in hockey, versus how many fist fights there are in the NBA. Hockey has a TON more, and the reason why is obvious! They don't get in nearly as much trouble for it. They're just responding to the incentives, whether they're conscious of it or not.


Bottom line: it's human nature to respond to incentives and disincentives, and you should never bet against human nature. Harsher penalties would work.

ballin...you presented some nicely reasoned and well supported points. thanks and a tp.

[azzenfrost]

Had he elbowed and concussed Durant, we won't see him until next season or maybe longer. Harden is a part of OKC's success but he's not their biggest star. So while Artest may have felt like he could have gotten away with it, Stern definitely feels he can get away with a 7 game penalty as a response.

[CelticHooligan3]

For IP - my guess is that you take Metta's past good into account for your reasoning (5 games).

Yes - he has done a lot of good.

But - for me - I just think that it was more important for LA to win THAT game - at all..ANY..cost. If OKC had won, it would've been a sweep vs LA - a psychological blow to THEM and a boost for OKC, with their recent struggles and all.

1) I'm not taking into account any charity work or whatever that he's done. I think he did mean to duff Harden, I think it was not premeditated. I put it as a little less severe than Bynum's body check of Barea, again assuming Harden didn't miss any games. Since he's missing some, I have no problem with 7, and if harden missed a playoff game, I'd have less problem with more.

2) Artest is not nearly as devious as you're giving him credit for. What you're talking about is a consciOus decision. It was an idiotic reflex.

So let me get this straight.. You KNOW for a fact IP that this was an "idiotic reflex" by Artest and not intentional. And how may i ask would you know that?

If your gonna defend this guy then you'd have to agree that the goonery that was so prevalent in the 80's should come back. Because this action would be met with an equal or more violent reaction then. Fair?

[indeedproceed]

For IP - my guess is that you take Metta's past good into account for your reasoning (5 games).

Yes - he has done a lot of good.

But - for me - I just think that it was more important for LA to win THAT game - at all..ANY..cost. If OKC had won, it would've been a sweep vs LA - a psychological blow to THEM and a boost for OKC, with their recent struggles and all.

1) I'm not taking into account any charity work or whatever that he's done. I think he did mean to duff Harden, I think it was not premeditated. I put it as a little less severe than Bynum's body check of Barea, again assuming Harden didn't miss any games. Since he's missing some, I have no problem with 7, and if harden missed a playoff game, I'd have less problem with more.

2) Artest is not nearly as devious as you're giving him credit for. What you're talking about is a consciOus decision. It was an idiotic reflex.

So let me get this straight.. You KNOW for a fact IP that this was an "idiotic reflex" by Artest and not intentional. And how may i ask would you know that?

If your gonna defend this guy then you'd have to agree that the goonery that was so prevalent in the 80's should come back. Because this action would be met with an equal or more violent reaction then. Fair?

Well to the first part, do you honestly think Ron Artest thought that action through, and decided that definite suspension and further damage to his reputation, along with possible serious injury to James Harden, was worth the opportunity to assert his physicality, even though he just slammed home a monster momentum changing dunk?

Artest just doesn't work like that.

And you're correct about the 80's goonery. I love that (stuff). Hard fouls, technicals, I love it. And I'd love to see the personal hatred between the teams if the Thunder face the Lakers.

That said, stuff like this should be punished, I just think 5-7 games (again, assuming no real injury to Harden, which I guess is not the case?) is the correct punishment.

[SHAQATTACK]

WHAT? concussion is a REAL injury , it is strike against your life and it NEVER goes away, the effect is with you the rest of your life.. Its like once a bone goes out of socket , it happens easier the next time, till eventually the damage is critical .   Those hits add up , see boxing,  what ROn did was add a brain injury t to Hardins life that will always be there. Each new one is a sorta mild heart attack that adds up of the course of a players life. They build on each other till, the point of no return . Because you can't see the scar or bouncing of the guys brain inside his head doesn't mean it didn't happen.

In my mind if HArdin had a bloody nose, missing teeth or black eye is visually bad , but its not forever type damage and a 1-3 game suspension would be fine.  What Artist did was a life changing event for Hardin, whether HArdin realizes it or not.  The next time it happens could be his last . So now Artist has screwed with this players life and it may affect Hardins game once what the doctors tell him about future risks and it sinks in. How hard will he play now ?  

Artist should be out of the NBA . Period    What Artist needs is to be taken behind a woodshed and beat with a baseball bat good and see if that sinks into his hard skull of rock .

Maybe I missed it , but did anybody see HARDIN do anything to Artist , hit him , punch him ,trip him .  I didn't.  So the guy just goes POSTAL on the NBA court and gives a guy near him a BRAIN INJURY ...for "NO REASON" other than he felt the need .

Stern....needs to have his head examined ...maybe he has run into too many walls .

[indeedproceed]

WHAT? concussion is a REAL injury , it is strike against your life and it NEVER goes away, the effect is with you the rest of your life.. Its like once a bone goes out of socket , it happens easier the next time, till eventually the damage is critical .   Those hits add up , see boxing,  what ROn did was add a brain injury t to Hardins life that will always be there. Each new one is a sorta mild heart attack that adds up of the course of a players life. They build on each other till, the point of no return . Because you can't see the scar or bouncing of the guys brain inside his head doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Yeah concussions are serious business. I've been blessed in that I've only had one or two in my life, but I've had friends who had to stop playing rugby at age 22, or even highschool football because of fear of getting another.

[CelticHooligan3]

For IP - my guess is that you take Metta's past good into account for your reasoning (5 games).

Yes - he has done a lot of good.

But - for me - I just think that it was more important for LA to win THAT game - at all..ANY..cost. If OKC had won, it would've been a sweep vs LA - a psychological blow to THEM and a boost for OKC, with their recent struggles and all.

1) I'm not taking into account any charity work or whatever that he's done. I think he did mean to duff Harden, I think it was not premeditated. I put it as a little less severe than Bynum's body check of Barea, again assuming Harden didn't miss any games. Since he's missing some, I have no problem with 7, and if harden missed a playoff game, I'd have less problem with more.

2) Artest is not nearly as devious as you're giving him credit for. What you're talking about is a consciOus decision. It was an idiotic reflex.

So let me get this straight.. You KNOW for a fact IP that this was an "idiotic reflex" by Artest and not intentional. And how may i ask would you know that?

If your gonna defend this guy then you'd have to agree that the goonery that was so prevalent in the 80's should come back. Because this action would be met with an equal or more violent reaction then. Fair?

Well to the first part, do you honestly think Ron Artest thought that action through, and decided that definite suspension and further damage to his reputation, along with possible serious injury to James Harden, was worth the opportunity to assert his physicality, even though he just slammed home a monster momentum changing dunk?

Artest just doesn't work like that.

And you're correct about the 80's goonery. I love that (stuff). Hard fouls, technicals, I love it. And I'd love to see the personal hatred between the teams if the Thunder face the Lakers.

That said, stuff like this should be punished, I just think 5-7 games (again, assuming no real injury to Harden, which I guess is not the case?) is the correct punishment.

So your contention is that because he didn't think his actions through he should be punished less severeley? I agree that in the moment he wasn't thinking about the punishment for the crime. But that should have absolutley no bareing on it.

He's a repeat offender one. After he did it he almost started a brawl by squaring off with Ibaka. As the person most responsible for the malice in the palace that fact alone should equal games missed.

Unless you know the guy you have no idea how "he works'. You can assume. Nothing more. The fact is he hit a guy with a dirty cheap elbow. You can tell by his facial reaction and follow through it was on purpose. If you want to contend that fact it would be like saying i didnt punch the guy his face ran into my fist. Its just ridiculous.

All also add that when you have Bill Plaschke the biggest Lakers homer/writer saying that he got off too easily, it should hit home. Im unsure how to add links but the article was in todays herald. There was no reason to take that long to hand down that sentence. The league was gauging the backlash it would incur for going so light. As i said yesterday. If this is not a clear and blatant sign of laker bias i dont know what is. If perk was still on the team and he pulled this stunt can you honestly say he would receive seven games? Didn't think so..

[Smitty77]

Then you IP, of all people, should know how severe concussions are since some of your friends had to give up a game they loved due to concussions.  So, for you to say "assuming no real injury to Harden" is simply incredulous.

Smitty77

[indeedproceed]

Then you IP, of all people, should know how severe concussions are since some of your friends had to give up a game they loved due to concussions.  So, for you to say "assuming no real injury to Harden" is simply incredulous.

Smitty77

Read the statement I made, I said (which i guess is no longer the case?) as in...I didn't know Harden had a diagnosed concussion until I just googled it.

And, if you'll go back to my earlier statements...

.For those who remember the good that Metta has done (which is considerable)...how much punishment do YOU folks think he should receive?       

5 games, outside 7. Maybe more if Harden is hurt

For IP - my guess is that you take Metta's past good into account for your reasoning (5 games).

Yes - he has done a lot of good.

But - for me - I just think that it was more important for LA to win THAT game - at all..ANY..cost. If OKC had won, it would've been a sweep vs LA - a psychological blow to THEM and a boost for OKC, with their recent struggles and all.

1) I'm not taking into account any charity work or whatever that he's done. I think he did mean to duff Harden, I think it was not premeditated. I put it as a little less severe than Bynum's body check of Barea, again assuming Harden didn't miss any games. Since he's missing some, I have no problem with 7, and if harden missed a playoff game, I'd have less problem with more.

We're talking about a career ender if he does this to Marquis or Pietrus. You only get so many concussions you can withstand. Should be 10 games lost at least.

Does Harden have a concussion? If so, that's a game changer.

So actually yeah, if Harden has a concussion that's forcing him to miss games, I think Artest should miss X + 7...as in however many games Harden misses, plus 7.

[indeedproceed]

So your contention is that because he didn't think his actions through he should be punished less severeley? I agree that in the moment he wasn't thinking about the punishment for the crime. But that should have absolutley no bareing on it.

I don't agree. Premeditated violence should be punished harder. 'Crimes of passion', as it were, should be judged more leniently.

He's a repeat offender one. After he did it he almost started a brawl by squaring off with Ibaka. As the person most responsible for the malice in the palace that fact alone should equal games missed.

Disagree with you and agree with JVG. I think what he did to Harden was wrong and merits punishment, but as Ibaka pursued him, he's got a right to get ready to defend himself. He didn't advance on Ibaka, iirc.

Unless you know the guy you have no idea how "he works'. You can assume. Nothing more. The fact is he hit a guy with a dirty cheap elbow. You can tell by his facial reaction and follow through it was on purpose. If you want to contend that fact it would be like saying i didnt punch the guy his face ran into my fist. Its just ridiculous.

You're misconstruing what I'm saying about his intention. And, while techinically you're right, I don't know Artest, but I have seen the guy play, and give interviews, and read analysis of him for what...11 years? 12 years?

And if you think his past history should matter, it should also be noted that if you just look at the guy's career, he's had a careers' worth of poor impulse control, where he is obviously not thinking before he's acting. He's been A LOT better lately, but his worser impulses got the upper hand here. i think that's obvious.

All also add that when you have Bill Plaschke the biggest Lakers homer/writer saying that he got off too easily, it should hit home. Im unsure how to add links but the article was in todays herald. There was no reason to take that long to hand down that sentence. The league was gauging the backlash it would incur for going so light. As i said yesterday. If this is not a clear and blatant sign of laker bias i dont know what is. If perk was still on the team and he pulled this stunt can you honestly say he would receive seven games? Didn't think so..

I think Perkins would also receive 7 games, yes. I think the notion of 'Lakers bias' is silly. I don't know why the league took so long to deliberate, but as I said before, this infraction I saw as about equal to Bynum's body-check of Barea.

I'd say it was not as bad, but Harden is now officially concussed, so its on par.

[SHAQATTACK]

Stern is joke and loser .  A creepy old dude that has only one thing on his mind ''TV RATINGS" ...money. Human decency and logic seems to go out the window with him

[SamuelAdams]

How much money will this actually cast Artest?

[Smitty77]

Repeat offender, yes!!!!  13 suspensions in 13 stinking years.

When he ends the next guy's career, I will come back to you IP and all the others that are defending Ronnie the Psycho.

Smitty77

[indeedproceed]

Repeat offender, yes!!!!  13 suspensions in 13 stinking years.

When he ends the next guy's career, I will come back to you IP and all the others that are defending Ronnie the Psycho.

Smitty77

That's fair.

[indeedproceed]

How much money will this actually cast Artest?

Very little, and I don't remember hearing anything about a fine to go with the suspension.