Author Topic: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?  (Read 9263 times)

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Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2012, 04:21:13 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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When Bradley was drafted I compared his ceiling to being a "Joe Dumars type". If this was something that people started to say... I'd feel pretty good. And i'd be real happy with having Avery Bradley on my Celtics.
I say he's the next Bird.

Bird Averitt, that is.  Another mini shooting guard.  

I doubt Bradley ends up having a career quite as good as Ron Boone, but if we're lucky he could have a John Roche type of career.  I say his ceiling is somewhere in between the two.

If we're talkin modern players... we'll be lucky if he ends up as good as Jason Terry.  About the same size... both from Seattle.  Seems fair. 

How bout that... Rondo is a poor man's Jason Kidd in his prime and Bradley has Jason Terry's ceiling.  Both those guys just so happen to play for the Mavs.  Good comparison.

Rondo to Kidd is a nice comparison, Avery to Terry not so much. Avery's number 1 asset is his on-ball defense then his slashing/cutting ability... is Jason Terry known for either of those?

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2012, 08:11:49 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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When Bradley was drafted I compared his ceiling to being a "Joe Dumars type". If this was something that people started to say... I'd feel pretty good. And i'd be real happy with having Avery Bradley on my Celtics.
I say he's the next Bird.

Bird Averitt, that is.  Another mini shooting guard.  

I doubt Bradley ends up having a career quite as good as Ron Boone, but if we're lucky he could have a John Roche type of career.  I say his ceiling is somewhere in between the two.

If we're talkin modern players... we'll be lucky if he ends up as good as Jason Terry.  About the same size... both from Seattle.  Seems fair.  

How bout that... Rondo is a poor man's Jason Kidd in his prime and Bradley has Jason Terry's ceiling.  Both those guys just so happen to play for the Mavs.  Good comparison.

Rondo to Kidd is a nice comparison, Avery to Terry not so much. Avery's number 1 asset is his on-ball defense then his slashing/cutting ability... is Jason Terry known for either of those?
Eh... it's tough to find 6'2 180 pound shooting guards.  Terry is about the best you'll find.  Bradley's defense is a bit overrated right now.  Joe Johnson destroyed him last night... which is to be expected.  Same issue Terry has had his entire career... too small to deal with bigger shooting guards. He's a pest (I remember when Rondo use to pressure the ball like that as a youngster... Marcus Banks too), but I think Kobe Bryant would eat him alive.

The cutting thing... sure.  Terry has been known as a guy to come off screens, hit shots and use his blazing quickness.  We'll be lucky if Bradley turns out to be half he player of Jason Terry.

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2012, 09:06:01 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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Half the player Terry is? Is this the same guy that was considered a selfish player/borderline cancer in
Atlanta? Bradley will be a superior player to Terry. Terry was never the athlete Bradley is. Never the defensive player Bradley is. Bradley's upside is huge. To say we would be "lucky" if he turned out to be half as good as Terry is really selling him short.

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2012, 09:20:50 AM »

Offline alajet

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Terry is not a selfish player. He is just a shooter, so, there is no point in trying to devalue his shooting or dribbling ability. If he played the PG, that would be mediocre, however. His passing is just not good enough to be called decent.
That said, Joe Dumars comparison is too far-fetched at this point.

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2012, 09:52:43 AM »

Offline cons

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yeah, i think terry is a decent comparison but I think its interesting how bradley really made his mark on defense first -then now becoming a scorer also - rare to see that - usually scorers eventually realize they have to play D too.

overall I just though rr and ab is a pretty small backcourt but seems to be working well. I was trying to remember other small backcourts that have succeeded and isiah/ dumars was i though the best fit. Usually the 2 is obviously bigger.
other ones i could think of don't fit as well - stockton / hornacek? i remember being excited about sherman douglas and dee brown together! Ha! that didn't go to far.
 But i think overall its rare to see a small backcourt really suceed so that's why this is interesting.
I'm sure somebody else can point out some other examples but i couldnt think of any recently.

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2012, 10:16:37 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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Comparing Rondo to Zeke is a huge stretch. Zeke was a scoring machine.

Rondo and Bradley could be - underscore "could" - a nice albeit painfully small backcourt.

The sample size, however, is FAR too small for any hyperbolic contributions such as this one. Get back to me at mid-season next year.
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Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2012, 10:19:42 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I don't really see any good comparisons, but Thomas and Dumars is probably the closest.
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C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2012, 11:22:53 AM »

Offline snively

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How about Gary Payton and Hersey Hawkins?
2025 Draft: Chicago Bulls

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Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2012, 11:30:19 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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How about Gary Payton and Hersey Hawkins?

Stockton and Hornacek?
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2012, 12:25:58 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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When Bradley was drafted I compared his ceiling to being a "Joe Dumars type". If this was something that people started to say... I'd feel pretty good. And i'd be real happy with having Avery Bradley on my Celtics.
I say he's the next Bird.

Bird Averitt, that is.  Another mini shooting guard.  

I doubt Bradley ends up having a career quite as good as Ron Boone, but if we're lucky he could have a John Roche type of career.  I say his ceiling is somewhere in between the two.

If we're talkin modern players... we'll be lucky if he ends up as good as Jason Terry.  About the same size... both from Seattle.  Seems fair.  

How bout that... Rondo is a poor man's Jason Kidd in his prime and Bradley has Jason Terry's ceiling.  Both those guys just so happen to play for the Mavs.  Good comparison.

Rondo to Kidd is a nice comparison, Avery to Terry not so much. Avery's number 1 asset is his on-ball defense then his slashing/cutting ability... is Jason Terry known for either of those?
 Bradley's defense is a bit overrated right now.  Joe Johnson destroyed him last night... which is to be expected.

You do realize Joe Johnson is 6' 7" and 240 right?

So by comparison that would be like complaining about Joe Johnson's D on Andrew Bynum.

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2012, 01:05:24 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Joe Johnson destroyed him last night... which is to be expected.
This is the second time you have said this in 2 threads.

You are also the guy that admits to not watching the Celtics.

Did you watch last night's game.

I watched the second half and it was either Teague or Hinrich guarding Bradley and vice versa at all times. In the fourth they attempted to trap and double Bradley when he touched the ball to get others to beat them.

Did Bradley even guard Johnson in the first half? Because if he did then Bradley torched Johnson as bad as Johnson torched Bradley, which at this point, unless I'm am told differently from someone else, I'm not even willing to concede.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 01:31:41 PM by nickagneta »

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2012, 01:10:04 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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 Joe Johnson destroyed him last night... which is to be expected.
This is the second time you have said this in 2 threads.

You are also the guy that admits to not watching the Celtics.

Did you watch last night's game.

I watched the second half and it was either Teague or Hinrich guarding Bradley at all times. In the fourth they attempted to trap and double Bradley when he touched the ball to get others to beat them.

Did Johnson even guard Bradley in the first half? Because if he did then Bradley torched Johnson as bad as Johnson torched Bradley, which at this point, unless I'm am told differently from someone else, I'm not even willing to concede.

Yup.

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2012, 01:27:37 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Bradley was every bit as good as Joe Johnson last night and he has alot less playing time under his belt and HAD ALOT LESS TALENT to help him out...for pEte sake ::).  Johnson impresses me once in a while ...but not the day in day out play Bradley has shown or defense effort that Bradley gives.

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2012, 05:50:30 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Joe Johnson destroyed him last night... which is to be expected.
This is the second time you have said this in 2 threads.

You are also the guy that admits to not watching the Celtics.

Did you watch last night's game.

I watched the second half and it was either Teague or Hinrich guarding Bradley and vice versa at all times. In the fourth they attempted to trap and double Bradley when he touched the ball to get others to beat them.

Did Bradley even guard Johnson in the first half? Because if he did then Bradley torched Johnson as bad as Johnson torched Bradley, which at this point, unless I'm am told differently from someone else, I'm not even willing to concede.
Of course i watched it.  When Bradley got stuck guarding Joe JOhsnon (who is a shooting guard), Johnson just backed him down and shot over him.  Get use to it.  That's what happens when your starting shooting guard is 6'2 and 180 pounds.

How about Gary Payton and Hersey Hawkins?

That's inspired, because Hawkins was small.  A bit bigger than Bradley, though.   And Rondo is nowhere near as good as Gary Payton.  Payton was 6'4, could back most point guards down and post up on them.  He could hit shots, post up, drive at will (the best finisher ive ever seen in my life), knock down threes, was a far superior defender and managed to average 9 assists despite averaging 24 points a game... while being the best player on the team.  I'd also give the edge to Gary on rebounding (he averaged 6.5 one season).  There was a 6 year stretch where he lead them to 55-64 wins... probably would have won a title had it not been for Jordan.   Payton was painfully underrated nationally.  I'm slightly bias, because I watched him play in Seattle numerous times... but I'm serious when I say Payton was the best all-around point guard of his generation.  Anyone who watched him closely in his prime would agree.  He was better than Jason Kidd.   Surely you could make the case that Stockton was better, but Gary Payton consistently destroyed him in matchups.  Ultimately you have to rank Stockton higher due to the assist numbers and longevity.  Bill SImmons agreed with me in his book of basketball:  "I watched Kidd, Stockton and GP in their absolute primes and thought GP was the most talented all-around player of the three"... and later backs me up on the Stockton thing:  "So yeah, GP was more talented than someone like Stockton, as we witnessed in the '96 Conference Finals when Payton did everything but stick a red ball in Stockton's mouth, duct-tape him to a chair and introduce him to the Gimp."   Rondo isn't on that level.  Of all the players in the league right now, the closest I've seen to someone of Payton's skill set is Deron Williams.  I know that sounds ridiculous coming from me, because I have a recent hilarious trend of exclaiming how much better Deron Williams is than Rondo. But really, Deron is the only one I can think of who seems to use his size (Deron is 6'3 200) to back down smaller point guards, post them up, drive to the basket, hit shots, etc.   Payton's a bad example for Rondo.  Rondo's offensive game is almost non-existent beyond driving to the basket.  He's a setup and intangible man.  Stick with poor man's Jason Kidd.  If you want two players to compare Rondo and Bradley with... maybe go with Jason Kidd and Tony Delk.  They played a season together in Phoenix.  Again, it's hard to find 6'2 shooting guards.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 05:58:08 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: bradley and rondo similar to dumars and thomas?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2012, 07:04:14 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Joe Johnson destroyed him last night... which is to be expected.
This is the second time you have said this in 2 threads.

You are also the guy that admits to not watching the Celtics.

Did you watch last night's game.

I watched the second half and it was either Teague or Hinrich guarding Bradley and vice versa at all times. In the fourth they attempted to trap and double Bradley when he touched the ball to get others to beat them.

Did Bradley even guard Johnson in the first half? Because if he did then Bradley torched Johnson as bad as Johnson torched Bradley, which at this point, unless I'm am told differently from someone else, I'm not even willing to concede.
Of course i watched it.  When Bradley got stuck guarding Joe JOhsnon (who is a shooting guard), Johnson just backed him down and shot over him.  Get use to it.  That's what happens when your starting shooting guard is 6'2 and 180 pounds.

How about Gary Payton and Hersey Hawkins?

That's inspired, because Hawkins was small.  A bit bigger than Bradley, though.   And Rondo is nowhere near as good as Gary Payton.  Payton was 6'4, could back most point guards down and post up on them.  He could hit shots, post up, drive at will (the best finisher ive ever seen in my life), knock down threes, was a far superior defender and managed to average 9 assists despite averaging 24 points a game... while being the best player on the team.  I'd also give the edge to Gary on rebounding (he averaged 6.5 one season).  There was a 6 year stretch where he lead them to 55-64 wins... probably would have won a title had it not been for Jordan.   Payton was painfully underrated nationally.  I'm slightly bias, because I watched him play in Seattle numerous times... but I'm serious when I say Payton was the best all-around point guard of his generation.  Anyone who watched him closely in his prime would agree.  He was better than Jason Kidd.   Surely you could make the case that Stockton was better, but Gary Payton consistently destroyed him in matchups.  Ultimately you have to rank Stockton higher due to the assist numbers and longevity.  Bill SImmons agreed with me in his book of basketball:  "I watched Kidd, Stockton and GP in their absolute primes and thought GP was the most talented all-around player of the three"... and later backs me up on the Stockton thing:  "So yeah, GP was more talented than someone like Stockton, as we witnessed in the '96 Conference Finals when Payton did everything but stick a red ball in Stockton's mouth, duct-tape him to a chair and introduce him to the Gimp."   Rondo isn't on that level.  Of all the players in the league right now, the closest I've seen to someone of Payton's skill set is Deron Williams.  I know that sounds ridiculous coming from me, because I have a recent hilarious trend of exclaiming how much better Deron Williams is than Rondo. But really, Deron is the only one I can think of who seems to use his size (Deron is 6'3 200) to back down smaller point guards, post them up, drive to the basket, hit shots, etc.   Payton's a bad example for Rondo.  Rondo's offensive game is almost non-existent beyond driving to the basket.  He's a setup and intangible man.  Stick with poor man's Jason Kidd.  If you want two players to compare Rondo and Bradley with... maybe go with Jason Kidd and Tony Delk.  They played a season together in Phoenix.  Again, it's hard to find 6'2 shooting guards.

I loved Payton in the '90s, and I tend to agree with you and Simmons.  I always thought he was the best point guard of the era, and he was possibly my favorite player of the decade.  I don't want to take anything away from Stockton.  He was a great player in his own right.  But, I agree that the Glove was better.

I really don't like the D. Williams comparison, though.  Physically, I'll buy it, and Deron Williams has a lot of weapons in his offensive arsenal, but I'm sorry, he doesn't bring anywhere near that defensive intensity that Payton brought to the game.  This was the thing that set Payton apart, and the reason that Gary Payton is actually a better comparison to Rondo than Deron Williams.

I would like to add that Gary Payton was a poor perimeter shooter for the first half of his career.  He improved as his career progressed.  It always looked a little funky--he had that slingshot kind of release--but it became effective for him.



DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson