Jeff Green>Josh Smith

[indeedproceed]

He played SF for the C's, while he did have some success with the C's in transition and posting up, he wasn't overpowering at the position. His rebounding wasn't overpowering for the position and he didn't get to the line anymore than he did in OKC.

I think the bigger question is, 'how would Josh Smith stack up at NOT playing small forward for the Celtics?'..cuz..its clear it is only helping Jeff Green's stock rise. 

[Marcus13]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

You just told me you would rather have an average, second-string SF who hasn't played basketball in two years because of a serious heart condition over a proven All-Star PF???

I love CB, man

[jgod213]

Josh Smith has been on the short list of best help defenders in the nba over the past 5 years and has become a great individual defensive player over the past 2.  Jeff Green will never be the anywhere near the defender Smith has consistently been.  This debate is foolish.

[myteamisbetterthanyours]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

You just told me you would rather have an average, second-string SF who hasn't played basketball in two years because of a serious heart condition over a proven All-Star PF???

I love CB, man

Actually yes.  I also said Avery Bradley was going to be a legitimate NBA player/potential star in this league because of his defense.  

You were probably one of the ones saying he should be cut.  Which makes sense, because people tend to live in the moment instead of evaluating players skill sets/tools and putting into account their current situation (team/system/injuries/their respective roles and room for growth/where they fit best/what they are better at doing/etc.)and thinking beyond a player's current stats.  Having better stats doesn't necesarrily make you a better player than someone else.

Thats why scouting is such a tough job, and yet many of you celticsbloggers think you are experts at it. That is all.

[myteamisbetterthanyours]

Just watch when Jeff Green starts dropping 20 ppg on ppl in the coming years.. Don't say I didn't tell you so.  He is a baller.  He just hasn't been put in a position where he'd be the most successful, which I think is starting at small forward on a championship contender.

[Marcus13]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

You just told me you would rather have an average, second-string SF who hasn't played basketball in two years because of a serious heart condition over a proven All-Star PF???

I love CB, man

Actually yes.  I also said Avery Bradley was going to be a legitimate NBA player/potential star in this league because of his defense.  

Avery Bradley will never be a legit starter in the NBA

[indeedproceed]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

You just told me you would rather have an average, second-string SF who hasn't played basketball in two years because of a serious heart condition over a proven All-Star PF???

I love CB, man

Actually yes.  I also said Avery Bradley was going to be a legitimate NBA player/potential star in this league because of his defense.  

You were probably one of the ones saying he should be cut.  Which makes sense, because people tend to live in the moment instead of evaluating players skill sets/tools and putting into account their current situation (team/system/injuries/their respective roles and room for growth/where they fit best/what they are better at doing/etc.)and thinking beyond a player's current stats.  Having better stats doesn't necesarrily make you a better player than someone else.

Thats why scouting is such a tough job, and yet many of you celticsbloggers think you are experts at it. That is all.

If you called Avery Bradley before he broke out, more power to you. Good call.

But it is completely different apples and oranges here. Bradley is in his sophomore year, he's almost already played in 2x the # of games he played last season, and he's getting 4x the number of minutes. That's royal jelly treatment right there, and seeing a guy with super-high athletic markers start slow his rookie year and take a big step forward his sophomore year (although traditionally guys make the biggest step in the 3rd season) isn't unheard of.

Jeff Green was not a below-average starting quality power-forward in his first 4 years and 300 games in the NBA.

As a small forward he looked a little better during isolated stretches.

There is the argument to be made that Green, at age 25, could still peak as an above-average starting caliber SF, but its a tenuous argument.

There isn't really an argument that Green is better than Smith.  

[Fafnir]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

You just told me you would rather have an average, second-string SF who hasn't played basketball in two years because of a serious heart condition over a proven All-Star PF???

I love CB, man

Actually yes.  I also said Avery Bradley was going to be a legitimate NBA player/potential star in this league because of his defense.  

Avery Bradley will never be a legit starter in the NBA

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201204010BOS.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201204100MIA.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201204070IND.html

[ManUp]

I honestly can't find a way to express my disbelief of this thread. I've been trying to find the words for a while now, but I just can't. It's as IP says, Green is being considered a better player now then when he was actually playing. In the off-season the question was whether he was better than Thaddeus Young or not, all of a sudden it's Josh Smith.

Josh Smith > Thaddeus Young > Jeff Green

[myteamisbetterthanyours]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

You just told me you would rather have an average, second-string SF who hasn't played basketball in two years because of a serious heart condition over a proven All-Star PF???

I love CB, man

Actually yes.  I also said Avery Bradley was going to be a legitimate NBA player/potential star in this league because of his defense.  

You were probably one of the ones saying he should be cut.  Which makes sense, because people tend to live in the moment instead of evaluating players skill sets/tools and putting into account their current situation (team/system/injuries/their respective roles and room for growth/where they fit best/what they are better at doing/etc.)and thinking beyond a player's current stats.  Having better stats doesn't necesarrily make you a better player than someone else.

Thats why scouting is such a tough job, and yet many of you celticsbloggers think you are experts at it. That is all.

If you called Avery Bradley before he broke out, more power to you. Good call.

But it is completely different apples and oranges here. Bradley is in his sophomore year, he's almost already played in 2x the # of games he played last season, and he's getting 4x the number of minutes. That's royal jelly treatment right there, and seeing a guy with super-high athletic markers start slow his rookie year and take a big step forward his sophomore year (although traditionally guys make the biggest step in the 3rd season) isn't unheard of.

Jeff Green was not a below-average starting quality power-forward in his first 4 years and 300 games in the NBA.

As a small forward he looked a little better during isolated stretches.

There is the argument to be made that Green, at age 25, could still peak as an above-average starting caliber SF, but its a tenuous argument.

There isn't really an argument that Green is better than Smith.  

I never actually said Green was better than Smith.  I think at this point, Smith is the better player.  BUT only because I feel Smith has been given more freedom in that he's the number 1 or 2 guy on his team every night because of necessity.

Green was always the third option (not because he isnt good enough to be the number one or two option, but because he's played with some great players in Durant and Westbrook) and now the case can be made that hes actually a 5th or 6th option on this team.  Green has ALL the NBA tools to be GREAT.  He's strong, he's quick enough to play the 3, he's got good stroke and he has a really high bball IQ, just ask his teammates.  Not too sold on J-Smoove's IQ and decision making.  Either way, down the road I feel Green will end up being the better player.  Hopefully Pierce retires soon enough so Green can start and drop 20 ppg on peoples heads.

[alajet]

I can't exactly call it that way, but looking at some other posts, I can say Green is well above average in terms of potential for his position, which is primarily the SF spot.
He can play PF when he is demanded to do so, but won't blossom in that position. He is young, he is athletic(you don't have to be blocking shots to be called that way), he is quick enough to defend many of other forwards, and from what I saw in his OKC days, he doesn't think he needs to continuously shoot the ball for success.
I have monitored him beginning with his rookie season and at first, couldn't really understand why he was the center piece Seattle was getting back for Ray. He looked lost. Then again, even Durant looked miles away from being efficient, often struggling with his shooting. Green looked even worse.
But as years went by, I changed my opinion about him as his on-court awareness improved, and he began to utilize in his role as an NBA player.
Ibaka > Green isn't the main reason OKC traded him. It's because they got someone to start in the center spot (Perk) with trade. They may be forced to give up on Harden in the near future, as well, while trying to lock up other spots in the team.

As I have already stated in the other thread, I'm not that much into bringing Josh to this team. Hats off to him for his excellent season, but it's fair to say this is the only season he really gave his head to the basketball, primarily because he became his team's first option, with JJ struggling.
I think we should add Jeff if he's willing to come and we have the financial flexibility to do so.

[KCattheStripe]

He played SF for the C's, while he did have some success with the C's in transition and posting up, he wasn't overpowering at the position. His rebounding wasn't overpowering for the position and he didn't get to the line anymore than he did in OKC.

According to Hollinger-- I think-- his defense was also pretty good at the SF.

[mmmmm]

Josh Smith is a significantly better player than Jeff Green was and that was before Jeff Green missed an entire season with a heart related medical condition.  And Smith is only a year older so age isn't a factor, where it is in other situations.

Co-sign.  It's good to see fans overrating our players (or at least players we have Bird rights to), but Smith is significantly better.  Green may have a slight edge in outside shooting, but Smith is much, much, much better on defense, he's a better rebounder, he's a better passer, and he's less passive.

I wouldn't call him a much much much better defensive player. Smith is better, but Green has all the physical tools to become a defensive force too.  Green has what it takes but circumstances/lack of a true roll/bad luck have plagued Green so far in his career.  I really think at the end of the day, when they both finish off their careers, Green will be considered a better player.

I said similar things about Bradley when 75% of you wanted him out of here.  (Check my posts history).  I'm like a soothsayer, you just needa believe me. 

Problem is, we have the evidence of Green's defensive ability as a starting PF when he was with the Thunder.  We saw what he was last year off the bench. 


He is not as good as Smith. 

That's because the Thunder misused Green primarily as a PF (they had this fella name of Durant they liked at SF).  He's far, far better as an SF.  His splits are very telling.  On offense, its about a wash - he's above average offensively at either the 3 or 4 (speed advantage over most 4s, size advantage over most 3s).  But defensively he's been much, much more effective at shutting down SFs over his career than PFs.

If you isolate Green's numbers purely as an SF, he suddenly looks way better.

Here is a link to his splits while with Boston last year:

http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS12.HTM#bypos

The net net of it can be summed up as, in 48 minutes of play, he's +5.7 at SF, -2.3 at PF.   That's a pretty compelling difference.  The first is near all-star level.  The latter is bench player.

Those numbers are reflective of what he's shown in previous years and of what a lot of us have been saying about Green for years.  He belongs at the 3, not the 4.

FWIW - in Josh Smith's splits, he's usually been positive at both PF & SF, but generally much better at PF.  And not at strong at either as Green has shown at SF.   This season, Smith has played almost exclusively at PF and is having a one of his best years for it (he's netting +4.5 per 48 at PF).

This illustrates the point that the comparison of Jeff Green and Josh Smith is a little bit of apples v oranges.  Both players do cross over between the 3 & the 4, but they are very different players and each is better off at the other position.

[mmmmm]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

You just told me you would rather have an average, second-string SF who hasn't played basketball in two years because of a serious heart condition over a proven All-Star PF???

I love CB, man

Actually yes.  I also said Avery Bradley was going to be a legitimate NBA player/potential star in this league because of his defense.  

You were probably one of the ones saying he should be cut.  Which makes sense, because people tend to live in the moment instead of evaluating players skill sets/tools and putting into account their current situation (team/system/injuries/their respective roles and room for growth/where they fit best/what they are better at doing/etc.)and thinking beyond a player's current stats.  Having better stats doesn't necesarrily make you a better player than someone else.

Thats why scouting is such a tough job, and yet many of you celticsbloggers think you are experts at it. That is all.

If you called Avery Bradley before he broke out, more power to you. Good call.

But it is completely different apples and oranges here. Bradley is in his sophomore year, he's almost already played in 2x the # of games he played last season, and he's getting 4x the number of minutes. That's royal jelly treatment right there, and seeing a guy with super-high athletic markers start slow his rookie year and take a big step forward his sophomore year (although traditionally guys make the biggest step in the 3rd season) isn't unheard of.

Jeff Green was not a below-average starting quality power-forward in his first 4 years and 300 games in the NBA.

As a small forward he looked a little better during isolated stretches.

There is the argument to be made that Green, at age 25, could still peak as an above-average starting caliber SF, but its a tenuous argument.

...

Wouldn't this argument also apply to Brandon Bass going into this year?  He'd been around for several years and a lot of folks had him 'all figured out' as 'no pass Bass' who had a great jump shot but was weak on defense.  And indeed, that's how he started the season as with the Cs.  But he's become a much more complete player, especially improving on defense, while in this system.

I think that players do indeed respond to the situations they are placed in.

I have been following Jeff Green's career for years and I've always felt he was cursed the moment he ended up on the same team as Kevin Durant because he has been forced to spend most of his career at the wrong position on defense and who's main role on offense was to stretch the paint with outside shots and set screens.  Wasted talent, imho.

[myteamisbetterthanyours]

Josh Smith is a significantly better player than Jeff Green was and that was before Jeff Green missed an entire season with a heart related medical condition.  And Smith is only a year older so age isn't a factor, where it is in other situations.

Co-sign.  It's good to see fans overrating our players (or at least players we have Bird rights to), but Smith is significantly better.  Green may have a slight edge in outside shooting, but Smith is much, much, much better on defense, he's a better rebounder, he's a better passer, and he's less passive.

I wouldn't call him a much much much better defensive player. Smith is better, but Green has all the physical tools to become a defensive force too.  Green has what it takes but circumstances/lack of a true roll/bad luck have plagued Green so far in his career.  I really think at the end of the day, when they both finish off their careers, Green will be considered a better player.

I said similar things about Bradley when 75% of you wanted him out of here.  (Check my posts history).  I'm like a soothsayer, you just needa believe me. 

Problem is, we have the evidence of Green's defensive ability as a starting PF when he was with the Thunder.  We saw what he was last year off the bench. 


He is not as good as Smith. 

That's because the Thunder misused Green primarily as a PF (they had this fella name of Durant they liked at SF).  He's far, far better as an SF.  His splits are very telling.  On offense, its about a wash - he's above average offensively at either the 3 or 4 (speed advantage over most 4s, size advantage over most 3s).  But defensively he's been much, much more effective at shutting down SFs over his career than PFs.

If you isolate Green's numbers purely as an SF, he suddenly looks way better.

Here is a link to his splits while with Boston last year:

http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS12.HTM#bypos

The net net of it can be summed up as, in 48 minutes of play, he's +5.7 at SF, -2.3 at PF.   That's a pretty compelling difference.  The first is near all-star level.  The latter is bench player.

Those numbers are reflective of what he's shown in previous years and of what a lot of us have been saying about Green for years.  He belongs at the 3, not the 4.

FWIW - in Josh Smith's splits, he's usually been positive at both PF & SF, but generally much better at PF.  And not at strong at either as Green has shown at SF.   This season, Smith has played almost exclusively at PF and is having a one of his best years for it (he's netting +4.5 per 48 at PF).

This illustrates the point that the comparison of Jeff Green and Josh Smith is a little bit of apples v oranges.  Both players do cross over between the 3 & the 4, but they are very different players and each is better off at the other position.

What he said... Once Green becomes a starting SF on a good team, you'll see his numbers sky rocket, I'm almost 100% sure of it.  I was right about Avery.. (and not completely wrong about Gerald Green) If I'm right about Jeff Green.. I'm submitting my resume to the Celtics and joining their Scout team.