rondo 10 pts /20 assist /10rb

[KGs Knee]

I thought it was a rather average game for Rondo.

Only the amazing Rondo can have an average game and still get a triple double (with 20 assists).  The man is the most uniquely talented player I've seen!

[RyNye]

And Rondo's shooting did actively hurt the team. Any time you're scoring around .5 points per shot you take your shooting (.25 TS%) is hurting the team's chances of winning.

Yes, but NOT WHEN YOU ALSO HAVE 10 REBOUNDS AND 20 ASSISTS. The positive value from those far outweighs the negative value of the bad shots. I agree that it was a bad shooting night for him, but it's like earlier in the year when Pierce had his prolonged shooting slump, and his assist/rebound numbers all jumped up.

Scoring is not the end-all be-all of basketball, and the fact that he excelled in literally every other area of the game more than makes up for the fact that a few shots didn't fall.

[Fafnir]

And Rondo's shooting did actively hurt the team. Any time you're scoring around .5 points per shot you take your shooting (.25 TS%) is hurting the team's chances of winning.

Yes, but NOT WHEN YOU ALSO HAVE 10 REBOUNDS AND 20 ASSISTS. The positive value from those far outweighs the negative value of the bad shots.

How many assists and rebounds he had doesn't effect how valuable or hurtful his poor shooting was for the team. If you get 2 assists in OT it doesn't change the possession you used up when you missed 3 shots in the fourth.

I've never said Rondo had an overall negative impact on the C's in last nights game. Instead I've said triple doubles are an artifact of our love of two-digit numbers (fan stat) and that I wouldn't put this game in his top games this year, probably not in the top 20.

Given how much our offense depends on Rondo, even during his worst games he improves the teams chances to win.

[BballTim]

I'd disagree with the claim that Rondo's overall play was actively hurting the Celts chances of winning.

Well thats good we can both disagree with something no one has said in this thread.

  Just following in kind, I suppose. I said:

"Rondo didn't have a good shooting night but he's one of the few players in the game that can be a positive on offense when he shoots 3-16"

  And you said:

"10 points on 18 shots (16 + 4 FTA) isn't valuable, its actively hurting the team's chances of winning."

  I was somehow unable to discern "I agree with you and think that Rondo helped the team's chances of winning" in that response.

This game highlights how when our offense becomes dependent on just Rondo creating that it doesn't work. We need Pierce or Ray to give us something.

Is what I said earlier in the thread, I guess I shouldn't assume you've been reading the entire conversation.

Last night Rondo creating and KG/Bass jump shots was our offense, and it was ugly ugly stuff.

  I didn't read that. OTOH, Ray's offense is as dependent on Rondo's creating as anyone on the team.

And Rondo's shooting did actively hurt the team. Any time you're scoring around .5 points per shot you take your shooting (.25 TS%) is hurting the team's chances of winning.

  I'm not sure what the point of this is. Are you claiming that Rondo's overall play hurt the offense, or are you just trying to avoid giving him any credit when he has a poor shooting night?

[Fafnir]

Ray does depend on Rondo an awful lot to get his shot, but Ray's presence demands a ton of attention that also helps the rest of the team. The spacing and defensive attention his off the ball action generates is very valuable even when he doesn't score on a given sequence. It makes things easier for Rondo too.

And Rondo's shooting did actively hurt the team. Any time you're scoring around .5 points per shot you take your shooting (.25 TS%) is hurting the team's chances of winning.

  I'm not sure what the point of this is. Are you claiming that Rondo's overall play hurt the offense, or are you just trying to avoid giving him any credit when he has a poor shooting night?

Oh my, you really can't say anything about Rondo without stirring up one camp or another.

I'm saying neither of the options you created for a false dichotomy.

Is it really so hard to understand that noting a players awful shooting hurts the team even as other aspects of his game help it? Or that posting a whooping offensive rating of 89 as a team and 82 as an individual player isn't a game I want Rondo to repeat?

I mean heck I only got into this conversation because I think people overate triple doubles massively.

[BballTim]

Ray does depend on Rondo an awful lot to get his shot, but Ray's presence demands a ton of attention that also helps the rest of the team. The spacing and defensive attention his off the ball action generates is very valuable even when he doesn't score on a given sequence. It makes things easier for Rondo too.

And Rondo's shooting did actively hurt the team. Any time you're scoring around .5 points per shot you take your shooting (.25 TS%) is hurting the team's chances of winning.

  I'm not sure what the point of this is. Are you claiming that Rondo's overall play hurt the offense, or are you just trying to avoid giving him any credit when he has a poor shooting night?

Oh my, you really can't say anything about Rondo without stirring up one camp or another.

I'm saying neither of the options you created for a false dichotomy.

Is it really so hard to understand that noting a players awful shooting hurts the team even as other aspects of his game help it? Or that posting a whooping offensive rating of 89 as a team and 82 as an individual player isn't a game I want Rondo to repeat?

  The fact that Rondo had a poor shooting night and the fact that missing shots hurts the offense isn't really in dispute, is it?

[Fafnir]

Ray does depend on Rondo an awful lot to get his shot, but Ray's presence demands a ton of attention that also helps the rest of the team. The spacing and defensive attention his off the ball action generates is very valuable even when he doesn't score on a given sequence. It makes things easier for Rondo too.

And Rondo's shooting did actively hurt the team. Any time you're scoring around .5 points per shot you take your shooting (.25 TS%) is hurting the team's chances of winning.

  I'm not sure what the point of this is. Are you claiming that Rondo's overall play hurt the offense, or are you just trying to avoid giving him any credit when he has a poor shooting night?

Oh my, you really can't say anything about Rondo without stirring up one camp or another.

I'm saying neither of the options you created for a false dichotomy.

Is it really so hard to understand that noting a players awful shooting hurts the team even as other aspects of his game help it? Or that posting a whooping offensive rating of 89 as a team and 82 as an individual player isn't a game I want Rondo to repeat?

  The fact that Rondo had a poor shooting night and the fact that missing shots hurts the offense isn't really in dispute, is it?

You were the one who responded to that exact comment that started this conversation. So yes, it was certainly in dispute, especially when that simple fact was taken to mean Rondo played like garbage somehow.

Always fun when you mention Rondo!

[alajet]

Well, the point is his shooting hurt the team's offense and his assists catalyzed it.
The statement that is tried to be made here by Fafnir here is Rondo had a mixed night and his up and down performance was shaded a whole lot just because he put out a triple-double.
There is no need for a player to play downright awful or awesome in a game. Generally it's all about giving the team a hand by some way or not.
I can only see it this way. Am I really getting something wrong?

[snively]

Aesthetically, it wasn't much of a game for Rondo - some ugly turnovers and misses and most of the assists were of the generic variety. 

Still, he was the most important factor in the win (KG was a bigger deal per minute, but played 15 less minutes).  Sustained a great defensive effort level for the entire 2nd half and OT despite going without a break and willed the team through its offensive fatigue.  He's been a huge asset to Doc Rivers during this streak; acting like a coach on the floor, getting the team to execute, working the hot hand, and exploiting match-ups.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Crazy talk of this as always "not good enough" really....his game, his floor leadership, steals, defense, rebounding....REBOUNDING.....passes, floor vision, the passes HE invented...his shooting improvement....and what 3 for 16....so what...compaered to who again...some mythical pg you keep dreaming up...pp, kg, ray, all have off shooting nights..i swear, the micro-analysis is ridiculous....man, compared to WHO....ugh...now rondo is compared to John Stockton, one of the most solid, dependable pg's ever....and you still aren't happy.....Rondo is doing GREAT, in my book. Maybe some just post this stuff to "get it going"..?

[jambr380]

Very peculiar night by Rondo. I love the 20 assists and 10 rebounds, but the shooting was brutal...overall, a great win by the Celtics - the defense was especially impressive.

Rondo's stats kind of bring to mind this song/video by BR...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzpImg4X_Mw

[biggbird]

so i was a bit bored, had been reading a few articles on advanced stats and wanted to give it a try... so i attempted to calculate the wins produced per 48, WP48, for rondo, to check out how this game actually compares.

i used this article and the formulas found within to do the calculations.

according to what i came up with (and i'm no maths whizz, so it may well be i misunderstood something and am completely wrong ), rondo's wp48 for this game were 0.113. his average for the season (calculated in exactly the same manner)is 0.192. so, if you take it by this calculation, rondo actually had a significantly below average game, despite dropping a 20 assist trip dub!

just for a bit of a reference, the guys who created this stat generally tend to say that an average bench player will produce around a 0.100 wp48, your average starter will produce around 0.150, a star will produce 0.200+ and a superstar will be 0.300+.

as an interesting comparison, KGs wp48 for this game was 0.327, and he's at 0.236 for the season. rondo was actually also behind both bass and pietrus in this one too, in terms of wp48.

as with all stats, this doesn't necessarily capture everything that goes on in a game, but just another way of looking at it! (plus it gave me something to do...)