Author Topic: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?  (Read 10789 times)

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Online snively

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After witnessing a grand total of one Celtic offensive rebound in last night's game, I was moved to investigate the C's historical ranking in offensive rebounding.

If Zach Lowe (http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/03/11/value-of-offensive-boards-diminishing/) is to be believed, the worst offensive rebounding rate ever belonged to Golden State in 09/10.  According to basketball-reference.com, Golden State posted a .209 ORB% that year (last year the C's barely ranked above them with .211). 

Right now, we're at .196.  And we're actually trending downward.  The last game we posted an ORB% above that number was the Minny game, with a robust .295.  Since then we've put up .135, .089, .189, .186, and then last night's amazing .033.

In the Lowe article I referenced before (written last year when the C's were near the record), he categorizes the record as "trivial," citing a league-wide de-emphasis on offensive rebounding and name-dropping Doc Rivers, Stan Van Gundy, Tom Thibodeau and Gregg Popovich as respected basketball minds who have openly espoused such a strategy.

I'm not so convinced that it's trivial.  It's our historically awful offensive rebounding that has us deadlocked with the bottom-dwelling Hornets as the 2nd-worst offensive team in basketball, even though we shoot better from the field, turn the ball over less and get to the free throw-line more - just being average on the offensive boards makes the Hornets as prolific offensively. 

But the most frustrating example is Chicago.  If offensive rebounding were trivial (or if Thibs really did de-emphasize it), we would be dead-even offensively (we shoot a little better and get to the line more; they turn it over less).  Yet because Chicago's bigs are monsters on the offensive boards, they are a top 5 offense while we're slumming with the Bobcats, Hornets, Pistons and Wizards in the bottom 5.

While I'm extremely impressed with the way the team has been playing defense, it's hard to take the worst offensive rebounding team in NBA history seriously as a contender.
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Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 03:27:07 PM »

Offline Spoon

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While I'm extremely impressed with the way the team has been playing defense, it's hard to take the worst offensive rebounding team in NBA history seriously as a contender.

Quote
They're a small team that continues to have trouble rebounding -- "our one true weakness," said Paul Pierce after the Sixers outrebounded them 10-1 on the offensive glass -- but lately they've been able to mask that issue by defending on the perimeter, where the most talented opponents (LeBron James and Derrick Rose, to name two) do their best work anyway.

There are many ways to skin a cat. You are stuck evaluating the team based on one criteria. And it is certainly silly to say they cannot contend in the East based on poor ORB. Which as Lowe has proved, is not as important a stat as it once was.

Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 03:38:00 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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The lack of offensive rebounds is less problematic to me than the weakness/inconsistency we have on the defensive glass.  Not getting second-chance points sucks; playing great defense, then having to do it all over again because we've given up an offensive board, is brutal.  Maybe that Game 7 against the Lakers just sticks in my craw a little too much, but I wouldn't complain about the rebounding nearly as much if the team was better about making sure the opposition only got one shot attempt off per possession.

Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 04:05:34 PM »

Offline RyNye

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The problem with offensive rebounding stats is that the sample size is always so small. I mean, the difference between the top and the bottom team in offensive rebounding (Chicago and us, respectively), is 6. The difference between 1st and 20th is 3.

There are just so few offensive rebound opportunities in any basketball game, that a difference of one or two boards makes a huge impact on the percentage/efficiency numbers, that may be out of proportion to its actual impact on the game.

 

Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 04:41:46 PM »

Online snively

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While I'm extremely impressed with the way the team has been playing defense, it's hard to take the worst offensive rebounding team in NBA history seriously as a contender.

Quote
They're a small team that continues to have trouble rebounding -- "our one true weakness," said Paul Pierce after the Sixers outrebounded them 10-1 on the offensive glass -- but lately they've been able to mask that issue by defending on the perimeter, where the most talented opponents (LeBron James and Derrick Rose, to name two) do their best work anyway.

There are many ways to skin a cat. You are stuck evaluating the team based on one criteria. And it is certainly silly to say they cannot contend in the East based on poor ORB. Which as Lowe has proved, is not as important a stat as it once was.

I thought I countered Lowe's argument pretty effectively with the Bulls example.  They are a top 5 offense largely on the strength of their offensive rebounding.  They just beat us largely on the strength of their offensive rebounding. 

Our lack of offensive rebounding makes us a bad offensive team (we score 8 points less per 100 possesions than Chicago almost entirely based on ORB discrepancy): it puts enormous pressure on the team to be near perfect defensively to win games.
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Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 04:49:05 PM »

Offline Greenbean

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I hear ya....

A lot of offensive rebounding is strategy which is what I think the journalist is referring to when he says coaches are de emphasizing.

Do you tell your bigs to get back on defense or do you tell them to crash the glass?

Against Miami, I want everyone retreating since LeBron and Wade are most likely straking down the sidelines looking for an outlet.

Against Chicago however, I wouldnt mind seeing the C's crash the boards a little more. Especially with Bradley in the lineup. You need guys in the backcourt who can rotate back on D quickly if the bigs dont get that board.

Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 04:50:01 PM »

Online snively

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The problem with offensive rebounding stats is that the sample size is always so small. I mean, the difference between the top and the bottom team in offensive rebounding (Chicago and us, respectively), is 6. The difference between 1st and 20th is 3.

There are just so few offensive rebound opportunities in any basketball game, that a difference of one or two boards makes a huge impact on the percentage/efficiency numbers, that may be out of proportion to its actual impact on the game.

 

It's nowhere close to a small sample size.  This is not an individual game stat.  It's an entire season.  Actually, it's multiple entire seasons.  This is our 2nd consecutive season of being historically awful on the offensive glass.  We haven't fielded a top 10 offense since our ORB% fell off the face of the earth post-Powe.

It's just extraordinarily frustrating that a team with tremendous defense and great shooting has been held back by our historic incompetence on the offensive boards.
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Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 05:09:54 PM »

Offline Greenbean

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The problem with offensive rebounding stats is that the sample size is always so small. I mean, the difference between the top and the bottom team in offensive rebounding (Chicago and us, respectively), is 6. The difference between 1st and 20th is 3.

There are just so few offensive rebound opportunities in any basketball game, that a difference of one or two boards makes a huge impact on the percentage/efficiency numbers, that may be out of proportion to its actual impact on the game.

 

It's nowhere close to a small sample size.  This is not an individual game stat.  It's an entire season.  Actually, it's multiple entire seasons.  This is our 2nd consecutive season of being historically awful on the offensive glass.  We haven't fielded a top 10 offense since our ORB% fell off the face of the earth post-Powe.

It's just extraordinarily frustrating that a team with tremendous defense and great shooting has been held back by our historic incompetence on the offensive boards.

I dont get your correlation.

We have great defense, and great shooting.

What holds us back is poor defensive reebounding and turnovers...the same things that have held us back post 07-08.

Maybe offensive rebounding would get us some of the possesions back that we lose to GIVING UP offensive boards and turnovers, but it isnt the root of the issue.


Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 05:38:38 PM »

Online snively

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The problem with offensive rebounding stats is that the sample size is always so small. I mean, the difference between the top and the bottom team in offensive rebounding (Chicago and us, respectively), is 6. The difference between 1st and 20th is 3.

There are just so few offensive rebound opportunities in any basketball game, that a difference of one or two boards makes a huge impact on the percentage/efficiency numbers, that may be out of proportion to its actual impact on the game.

 

It's nowhere close to a small sample size.  This is not an individual game stat.  It's an entire season.  Actually, it's multiple entire seasons.  This is our 2nd consecutive season of being historically awful on the offensive glass.  We haven't fielded a top 10 offense since our ORB% fell off the face of the earth post-Powe.

It's just extraordinarily frustrating that a team with tremendous defense and great shooting has been held back by our historic incompetence on the offensive boards.

I dont get your correlation.

We have great defense, and great shooting.

What holds us back is poor defensive reebounding and turnovers...the same things that have held us back post 07-08.

Maybe offensive rebounding would get us some of the possesions back that we lose to GIVING UP offensive boards and turnovers, but it isnt the root of the issue.



You should check out the data on basketball-reference.  In 07/08, we were the 2nd most turnover-prone offense and the 8th best defensive rebounding team.  Last year we were tied for 3rd most turnover-prone and and the 9th best defensive rebounding team.  Both teams were elite defensively.

The difference is offensive rebounding.  In 07/08 and 08/09 we had top 10 offenses that  could put the hurt on opponents in multiple ways: shooting, slashing and pounding the boards (Powe was great at it, PJ Brown was good at it and Perk/Baby could occasionally help) - we were always turnover-prone.  In the years since, we've still been able to shoot and slash, but we've lost all, and I mean all, ability to crash the offensive boards.

That single factor has played a greater role than any other in reducing this team to offensive mediocrity (and outright ineptitude this year), which in turn has reduced our chances at a title.
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Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 07:54:31 PM »

Offline 317

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it is an issue but its difficult to fix with the current roster. the rebounding that can be fixed and is also an issue is allowing opponents to get offensive boards. if you just box out on defense you can cut the offensive rebounds allowed, on offense you have to give up transition defense to get boards.

Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 08:35:58 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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we don't do offenseive rebounds,  its better to make the shot the first time and get back on D  ASAP.

Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 05:27:08 AM »

Offline BballTim

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The problem with offensive rebounding stats is that the sample size is always so small. I mean, the difference between the top and the bottom team in offensive rebounding (Chicago and us, respectively), is 6. The difference between 1st and 20th is 3.

There are just so few offensive rebound opportunities in any basketball game, that a difference of one or two boards makes a huge impact on the percentage/efficiency numbers, that may be out of proportion to its actual impact on the game.

  The way you have to look at it is each offensive rebound is basically an extra possession, and teams average close to a point per possession. The Knicks are 22nd in offense, another three offensive rebounds and they might be 8th or so in offense.

Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 09:42:30 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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The problem with offensive rebounding stats is that the sample size is always so small. I mean, the difference between the top and the bottom team in offensive rebounding (Chicago and us, respectively), is 6. The difference between 1st and 20th is 3.

There are just so few offensive rebound opportunities in any basketball game, that a difference of one or two boards makes a huge impact on the percentage/efficiency numbers, that may be out of proportion to its actual impact on the game.

  The way you have to look at it is each offensive rebound is basically an extra possession, and teams average close to a point per possession. The Knicks are 22nd in offense, another three offensive rebounds and they might be 8th or so in offense.

No, an ORB is not an 'extra possession'.  It is simply a continuation of the current possession.

This gets to the fundamental game-value difference between offensive rebounds and defensive rebounds.  A DRB is 100% the stoppage of a current possession with zero points.  An ORB is just a continued _chance_ to score on the current possession.

Offensive rebounds are great when you get them.  But their importance to winning the game is overrated by many fans.   The main stat that ORBs correlates with is missed shots.   

Every year, if you look at the rankings for which teams grab a lot of ORBs versus those who don't it is almost a reverse of winning percentage.  Yes there are exceptions.  Some years you do have an a few good teams (like this year's Bulls) that happen to also grab a lot of ORBs.  But more often than not, the majority of top-10 ORB% teams have mediocre-to-poor records.  Conversely, the majority of the bottom-10 ORB% teams each year tend to have winning records.

Doc's strategy is not too different than what most winning Celtic teams have used in the past: 

1) Shoot for a high FG%.
2) Hold your opponent to a low FG%.
3) Rebound on defense.

If you can shoot above ~47% and hold your opponent to below ~43%, and you grab _defensive_ rebounds at above 70%, then you are almost always better off getting back on defense the moment you take your shot, rather than trying to crash the boards on offense.

The best teams at grabbing offensive rebounds only grab them about 30% of the time.  And that is the _best_ at it.  Most of the time teams only get the ORB about 25% of the time.  Crashing the boards also puts you behind on defense, potentially exposing yourself to easy fast-break points.

If you instead get back on transition D, prevent easy layups and hold your opponent to a low FG%, making them miss at least ~57% of their first shots, and grab the defensive board at least 70%, then your chance of getting the ball back before they score is better than ~40%.

Note - the real numbers are more in favor of that than the conservative ones I am using here.

So, from the moment the ball leaves your hand on the shot, you have a much higher chance of getting the ball back before they score if you get back on transition D instead of 'crashing the boards'.

Obviously, if a rebound is there to be grabbed, you should go for it.  This math is all about the general strategy, not saying you shouldn't try to grab offensive rebounds when they are there to be grabbed.

And obviously, if you are behind in the closing seconds and need to score on a possession quickly, you need to crash the boards because there may not be enough clock to execute the above strategy.

But the vast majority of the time, transition D should be a much higher priority than crashing the offensive boards.
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Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 10:51:10 AM »

Offline RyNye

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It's nowhere close to a small sample size.  This is not an individual game stat.  It's an entire season.  Actually, it's multiple entire seasons.  This is our 2nd consecutive season of being historically awful on the offensive glass.  We haven't fielded a top 10 offense since our ORB% fell off the face of the earth post-Powe.

You are missing my point. ORB% is a volatile stat, because within a game there are so few opportunities. The league average is somewhere around 10 offensive rebounds per game. That means a fluctuation of one rebound in a game is a fluctuation of 10% for that game's ORB%. That's a LOT of variability, which is why Hollinger and other sports statisticians almost never bring it up as a stat.

Also, for the record, look at the last few champions, and how they ranked in the league for offensive boards per game:

2011 Dallas Mavericks - 28th in league
2010 Los Angeles Lakers - tied for 3rd in league
2009 Los Angeles Lakers - 3rd in league
2008 Boston Celtics - tied for 23rd in league
2007 San Antonio Spurs - 27th in league
2006 Miami Heat - tied for 20th in league
2005 San Antonio Spurs - 15th in league
2004 Detroit Pistons - 12th in league
2003 San Antonio Spurs - tied for 20th in league

Need I go on? For further comparison, the best ORB team in the league those seasons, and their records:

2011 - Minnesota Timbersolves (17-65 .... yeah)
2010 - Memphis Grizzlies (40-42, missed playoffs)
2009- Portland TrailBlazers (54-28, lost to Houston in first round)
2008- Cleveland Cavaliers (45-37, lost to Boston in second round)
2007- Cleveland Cavaliers (50-32, lost to Spurs in Finals)
2006- Utah Jazz (41-41, missed playoffs)
2005- Washington Wizards (45-37, lost to Miami in second round)
2004- Dallas Mavericks (52-30, lost to Sacramento in first round)
2003- Golden State Warriors (38-44, missed playoffs)

Re: Are these Celtics the worst offensive rebounding team in history?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 11:02:00 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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The problem with offensive rebounding stats is that the sample size is always so small. I mean, the difference between the top and the bottom team in offensive rebounding (Chicago and us, respectively), is 6. The difference between 1st and 20th is 3.

There are just so few offensive rebound opportunities in any basketball game, that a difference of one or two boards makes a huge impact on the percentage/efficiency numbers, that may be out of proportion to its actual impact on the game.

  The way you have to look at it is each offensive rebound is basically an extra possession, and teams average close to a point per possession. The Knicks are 22nd in offense, another three offensive rebounds and they might be 8th or so in offense.

No, an ORB is not an 'extra possession'.  It is simply a continuation of the current possession.

This gets to the fundamental game-value difference between offensive rebounds and defensive rebounds.  A DRB is 100% the stoppage of a current possession with zero points.  An ORB is just a continued _chance_ to score on the current possession.
I don't think that differentiation is meaningful. The alternative to getting an offensive rebound after a shot is the defense getting the rebound and having a possession. Getting the offensive rebound keeps them from having that possession. I'm not sure how you are defining a possession, but the value of an offensive rebound is another possession.

Are you requiring a change of possession for an 'extra possession'?

Your differentiation between ORB and DRB are also misleading; the alternative to getting a defensive rebound is giving the other team another _chance_ to score. By getting an ORB, you have 100% stopped the other team from having a possession. You are playing language games.