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Quote How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.A very good point! Let's do that. Let's take into account how well they "control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates.Celtics Offensive Efficiency: 99.4 (25th in the league)Nets Offensive Efficiency: 100.1 (21st in the league)So Deron, with far less talent around him, runs an offense that is better than the Celtics - which is actually among the worst in the league.
How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.
We could also look at individual production. Let me know which stats of those you'd like to compare either career or this year, because I know you won't bring up PER, WS/48, assist percentage, FG%, career turnover rate, FT%, points per game, etc etc.
It's true that the Nets are about a point per 100 possessions better than the Celts. But with Williams and Rondo both out of the game the difference is 3 points. Rondo makes a bigger positive impact on the Celts than Williams does on the Nets. He also made a significantly larger impact on the Celts last year than Deron did on the Nets.
Ok, just for kicks, let's bring up PER. Deron's PER is about 2 points higher than opposing PGs when he plays, Rondo's is about 6 points higher. So aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have more of a positive impact on his team than Williams and also outplays his counterpart by a significantly wider margin, your analysis is spot on.
The main reason they are better offensively is that they are a much superior offensive rebounding team.Deron doesn't cause that.
The "price" of landing a max talent: First of all, I believe a "max contract" (not involving a sign-and-trade) would give him a starting salary of 17.4 mil (30% of a 58 mil cap for a 7-9 year vet). In order to offer Deron that max deal, you'd first need to renounce the rights to Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Jeff Green, Brandon Bass, etc (Pietrus, Dooling, Wilcox, JO... ). Once you RENOUNCE those rights, you are left with roughly 28 mil in cap space. You'll need to use some of that money to sign our two 1st rounders... so lets call it 26 mil to be safe. Presuming Deron takes the max offer (17.4 mil), you now only have 8.6 million left in cap space. That may, in fact, price you out of bringing back Kevin Garnett (who most assume will get 10-12 mil next year), but you should have enough to bring back ONE of the following (Ray Allen, Jeff Green or Brandon Bass). Additionally, presumably if you sign Deron Williams, the next move is to offer up Rondo on the open market to the highest bidder. This is a tough one for a lot of Celtic fans to stomach, but it doesn't make much sense to have two dominant point guards. I'm of the belief that the Celtics owners/management would prefer Deron over Rondo, but that's besides the point. Once you sign Deron you can't trade him... so Rondo would have to be the guy you move. Luckily Rondo (as a top 6 PG himself) should have significant value on the open market. Something along the lines of a Josh Smith or a Al Jefferson isn't out of the question.
You can't convince people that Dwill can carry the franchise. He can't even carry the nets out of lottery. Trading Rondo away for a max player that have double the amount of his contract and signing dwill for max will kill our cap flexibility.To tell you, I think even Red wouldn't trade Rondo either if he is the only best player on the team. He traded an all-star in Ed Macauley for Bill Russell but that's because Bob Cousy is still on the team. He traded a valuable piece in Gerald Henderson for a top pick in Len Bias because Larry Bird is still in his prime. Unless this team have another young proven on the team, you don't just trade star players for the sake of trading. Name me players we can get at the expense of Rondo.
Quote It's true that the Nets are about a point per 100 possessions better than the Celts. But with Williams and Rondo both out of the game the difference is 3 points. Rondo makes a bigger positive impact on the Celts than Williams does on the Nets. He also made a significantly larger impact on the Celts last year than Deron did on the Nets.Again, it's a small sample size considering how long the two are on the floor. The stat you're citing is largely irrelevant.
Quote Ok, just for kicks, let's bring up PER. Deron's PER is about 2 points higher than opposing PGs when he plays, Rondo's is about 6 points higher. So aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have more of a positive impact on his team than Williams and also outplays his counterpart by a significantly wider margin, your analysis is spot on. This is...what? So instead of doing a direct head to head comparison of PER, in which Deron steadily outperforms Rondo and has his whole career (which you, by the way, dismiss as a stat that favors scorers...interestingly enough, Deron has averaged more assists in his career than Rondo, but I'm sure you'll find someway to dismiss that)...
You compare the PERs of each point guard to how their counterparts performed in games against them and then take the difference to measure impact of a game. This is a total stretch for a number of reasons...the first of which is that Rondo plays in a much better defensive system and that having one of the best defensive big men in the game behind you is a huge boon which allows him to gamble a lot more.
But you disregard that almost every single individual stat, both in sabremetric and traditional numbers, favor Deron. Williams also happens to run a more efficient offense.
For those of you who don't understand "big picture", let me spell it out for you. We aren't a contender this year. Three of our 4 best players are 35+ years old. Signing Deron Williams (young franchise player) and then moving Rondo to the highest bidder is actually probably our "best case" scenario here.
a hypothetical question: if we do end up getting Deron, how will the guard rotation going to be like?Rondo/BradleyDeron/Ray Allen (if he comes back for cheap again)man that guard lineup would be NASTY
Haha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
my god... the way some of you talk about Rondo, you'd think he was better than Magic Johnson or something. Good lord. He's a top 6 point guard. I love him. He's fantastic. Celtics love him. He's not going anywhere. Rose, Deron and Chris Paul are better. If I could add one of those guys to my team, I'd do it. The Nets gave up a boatload of assets just to rent Deron for a couple seasons and you're telling me you wouldn't be interested in adding him for free? I appreciate the loyalty to the Green, but all my tommy points are going to soap07 for talkin sense.