David Thorpe article on the redraft

[ctrey]

Yet more disappointing news from our season:


No. 8 pick: The Pistons select MarShon Brooks
No. 8 pick in actual 2011 NBA draft: Brandon Knight
With Rodney Stuckey and Ben Gordon on Detroit's roster, any rookie guard would have to share time. I like Knight a lot, but Brooks fills a bigger need and has just as much upside (more downside, too, though).

Brooks has the look of someone who can be a top-two scorer for his team, and he's also a willing rebounder and defender. He'd be a nice fit next to Stuckey.

Did we get anything right this year? Neither of our picks cracked the "Redo" top 20. I still like JaJuan but be honest folks, we could have used Brooks for the desperately needed bench scoring we never got at the 2 guard slot.

[Fafnir]

Yet more disappointing news from our season:

You have a different definition of news than I do I guess. A David Thorpe "redraft" puff piece doesn't strike me as news.

Danny picked Johnson, and would have picked him if the Nets hadn't offered a pick to move up just two spots. Brooks might be a better player for his entire career, he has been this year, but right now we just don't know.

[BballTim]

Yet more disappointing news from our season:


No. 8 pick: The Pistons select MarShon Brooks
No. 8 pick in actual 2011 NBA draft: Brandon Knight
With Rodney Stuckey and Ben Gordon on Detroit's roster, any rookie guard would have to share time. I like Knight a lot, but Brooks fills a bigger need and has just as much upside (more downside, too, though).

Brooks has the look of someone who can be a top-two scorer for his team, and he's also a willing rebounder and defender. He'd be a nice fit next to Stuckey.

  I don't watch a ton of NJ games but Marshon's numbers have been somewhat declining since the season began (not what you like to see from a rookie). His per36 numbers are a notch below Gerald Green's.

[Fafnir]

  I don't watch a ton of NJ games but Marshon's numbers have been somewhat declining since the season began (not what you like to see from a rookie). His per36 numbers are a notch below Gerald Green's.

A rookie hitting the wall isn't the most unusual thing to see.

Gerald Green's athleticism is still a site to behold, how I wish he wasn't just bad at all the mental aspects of NBA level basketball.

[MBunge]

Did we get anything right this year? Neither of our picks cracked the "Redo" top 20.

How could they, considering they've barely gotten a chance to play this season?  In the games where JJJ has gotten to play at least 15 minutes, he's averaged 9.2 points and 4 boards.  Not rookie of the year numbers, to be sure, but not bad.

Mike

[BballTim]

  I don't watch a ton of NJ games but Marshon's numbers have been somewhat declining since the season began (not what you like to see from a rookie). His per36 numbers are a notch below Gerald Green's.

A rookie hitting the wall isn't the most unusual thing to see.

Gerald Green's athleticism is still a site to behold, how I wish he wasn't just bad at all the mental aspects of NBA level basketball.

  I don't know that month to month drops really qualify as hitting the wall, unless he hit the wall about 15 games into the season. He scored 15 or more in 10 of his first 17 games and 5 of his last 20.

[bdm860]

The thing is, if this was done for the 2010 draft 6 weeks ago, Jeremy Lin would still go undrafted.  If this was done 3-4 weeks ago, Jeremy Lin would have been the #1 draft pick.  If this was done now, Lin would have dropped to a top 5 pick.

If you redid the '96 draft 2-3 months into the '96-'97 season, Steve Nash still wouldn't be a lottery pick, Ben Wallace still wouldn't have been drafted, Kerry Kittles would still be picked ahead of Kobe Bryant, and Lorenzen Wright, Samakia Walker, Todd Fuller, Eric Dampier, Vitaly Potapenko would all still probably be drafted ahead of Kobe, Nash, Ben Wallace, as well as Jermaine O'Neal, Peja Stojaković, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

You can look back once all the careers are over with, but you can't look back a few months or even a few seasons into their careers.

[slamtheking]

The thing is, if this was done for the 2010 draft 6 weeks ago, Jeremy Lin would still go undrafted.  If this was done 3-4 weeks ago, Jeremy Lin would have been the #1 draft pick.  If this was done now, Lin would have dropped to a top 5 pick.

If you redid the '96 draft 2-3 months into the '96-'97 season, Steve Nash still wouldn't be a lottery pick, Ben Wallace still wouldn't have been drafted, Kerry Kittles would still be picked ahead of Kobe Bryant, and Lorenzen Wright, Samakia Walker, Todd Fuller, Eric Dampier, Vitaly Potapenko would all still probably be drafted ahead of Kobe, Nash, Ben Wallace, as well as Jermaine O'Neal, Peja Stojaković, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

You can look back once all the careers are over with, but you can't look back a few months or even a few seasons into their careers.

TP for  well stated response.  I'm in complete agreement.  waaaayyyyy too early to start judging that draft night trade.  I was hoping for either Brooks or JJJ in the draft.  would have been happy with either player.  like the idea of getting one while picking up a second round pick to boot. 

If JJJ doesn't pan out in 3-4 years while Brooks looks like a worldbeater, then the naysayers may have a point on this trade.

[indeedproceed]

The thing is, if this was done for the 2010 draft 6 weeks ago, Jeremy Lin would still go undrafted.  If this was done 3-4 weeks ago, Jeremy Lin would have been the #1 draft pick.  If this was done now, Lin would have dropped to a top 5 pick.

If you redid the '96 draft 2-3 months into the '96-'97 season, Steve Nash still wouldn't be a lottery pick, Ben Wallace still wouldn't have been drafted, Kerry Kittles would still be picked ahead of Kobe Bryant, and Lorenzen Wright, Samakia Walker, Todd Fuller, Eric Dampier, Vitaly Potapenko would all still probably be drafted ahead of Kobe, Nash, Ben Wallace, as well as Jermaine O'Neal, Peja Stojaković, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

You can look back once all the careers are over with, but you can't look back a few months or even a few seasons into their careers.

TP for  well stated response.  I'm in complete agreement.  waaaayyyyy too early to start judging that draft night trade.  I was hoping for either Brooks or JJJ in the draft.  would have been happy with either player.  like the idea of getting one while picking up a second round pick to boot. 

If JJJ doesn't pan out in 3-4 years while Brooks looks like a worldbeater, then the naysayers may have a point on this trade.

The trade was not Marshon Brooks for JJJ, it was Boston's pick (who was going to Johnson anyways) for Brooks (who was NJ's target).

Personally, I don't really see the debate. If anything, lament that Danny whiffed on Chandler Parsons and Isiah Thomas. That'd be just as relevant a discussion as 'Danny whiffed on Brooks', IMO.

[huzy]

Yet more disappointing news from our season:


No. 8 pick: The Pistons select MarShon Brooks
No. 8 pick in actual 2011 NBA draft: Brandon Knight
With Rodney Stuckey and Ben Gordon on Detroit's roster, any rookie guard would have to share time. I like Knight a lot, but Brooks fills a bigger need and has just as much upside (more downside, too, though).
Brooks has the look of someone who can be a top-two scorer for his team, and he's also a willing rebounder and defender. He'd be a nice fit next to Stuckey.

Did we get anything right this year? Neither of our picks cracked the "Redo" top 20. I still like JaJuan but be honest folks, we could have used Brooks for the desperately needed bench scoring we never got at the 2 guard slot.

See bold: This is why the Celtics didn't keep Brooks.

A veteran team that hangs their hat on defense was not going to keep a gunner that makes Ray Allen look like Bruce Bowen on the defensive side of the floor. No chance he averages 30.0 MPG on the Celtics.

Also, JJJ was the Big Ten Player of the Year and Big Ten Defensive Player of the Year. I don't fault Ainge for that pick.

I see more upside in Johnson.

[snively]

JJJ's per 36 stats are about as impressive as Brooks. Both are capable offensive role players, with length enough to project as decent defensive players (though Brooks has the advantage in that his position doesn't require adding much meat). If we were 15-32, he'd probably be seeing the same kind of minutes as well.

[edwardjkasche]

I still like JaJuan but be honest folks, we could have used Brooks for the desperately needed bench scoring we never got at the 2 guard slot.

DOC DOES NOT PLAY ROOKIES!!!

It doesn't matter who was drafted.  Doc would not be playing them.  And, he certainly wouldn't allow a rookie to go in and play iso ball and take 12 shots per game.  Gaudy stats on crappy teams don't translate to solid contribution on contending teams.

For better or worse, Doc does not trust rookies... especially those who do not play D.  And, D is not a forte of Brooks.  He'd be riding the pine right next to the other rookies.

I love JJJ and Moore and wish they would play more minutes, but for better or worse (I believe worse) Doc won't play them.  I'm excited to see what they can do in the coming seasons.  I believe each of them can contribute to a contending team.  Whoever coaches them simply needs to loosen the reins a bit on offense.  Right now, Doc is making them watch and learn.

[hwangjini_1]

I still like JaJuan but be honest folks, we could have used Brooks for the desperately needed bench scoring we never got at the 2 guard slot.

DOC DOES NOT PLAY ROOKIES!!!

It doesn't matter who was drafted.  Doc would not be playing them.  And, he certainly wouldn't allow a rookie to go in and play iso ball and take 12 shots per game.  Gaudy stats on crappy teams don't translate to solid contribution on contending teams.

For better or worse, Doc does not trust rookies... especially those who do not play D.  And, D is not a forte of Brooks.  He'd be riding the pine right next to the other rookies.

I love JJJ and Moore and wish they would play more minutes, but for better or worse (I believe worse) Doc won't play them.  I'm excited to see what they can do in the coming seasons.  I believe each of them can contribute to a contending team.  Whoever coaches them simply needs to loosen the reins a bit on offense.  Right now, Doc is making them watch and learn.

please fellow posters, stop with the inaccurate and unverified posts concerning doc and rookies.

no coach plays all their rookies all the time. they usually play those rookies who they think will help the team.

if the coach has a deep, talented team, most rookies play less time.

if you view players drafted later than the 14th slot in the first round, fewer rookies would get minutes. the best players are usually gone by then.

to play so-so rookies a lot of minutes over better players is not a sign of a good coach. quite the opposite, it could be seen as bad coaching to insert young players not ready for prime time.

but just to put this in celtics-perspective, here are the rookie minutes for the better group of celtic rookies drafted over the past few years.

al jefferson - 14:48 minutes as a rookie
delonte west - 13:00 minutes as a rookie
tony allen - 16:23 minutes as a rookie
rajon rondo - 23:30 minutes as a rookie
glen davis - 13:35 minutes as a rookie
gerald green - 11:41 minutes as a rookie
ryan gomes - 22:36 minutes as a rookie

just a simple and quick search showed 7 rookies that did indeed play credible minutes for doc. two of them for over 22 minutes a game.

i did not bother to give the minutes of players such as harangody, hudson, giddens, pruitt, greenE, and other rookies who were obviously not nba material and therefore should NOT have gotten minutes.

it seems obvious that doc is NOT genetically wired to oppose giving minutes to rookies. rather, he seems to give more minutes to those rookies who eventually pan out as nba players - that is, those rookies he deems as having actual talent.

please, stop the blanket generalizations about doc and rookies. it greatly oversimplified his decisions and misrepresents his abilities as a coach.

plus it is tiresome to see this stated over and over again as if it is unquestionable truth.

thank you.

[Roy H.]

David Thorpe's analysis means less to me than Skip Bayless'.

[CeltsAcumen]

Hey, I don't want to say "I told you so," but, Purdue is always overrated, as is the Big Ten.  Both kids were good players in college, in the Big Ten, but neither should of been first round picks.

Hopefully, Ainge wont do the same thing and draft another bust by the name of Austin Rivers or Dramond Green.  Both are under sized for the position they will play in the pros, both are gonna be defensive liabilities.