Size is fool's gold

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

It's interesting that so many people are attributing this loss to the Lakers' size advantage. Yes, Bynum and Gasol are quite a pair, and Cs fans are glad to not have to face many tandems like that ... so what's Boston's excuse for getting so badly outrebounded against frontlines that pale in comparison to Bynum-Gasol? Why is Boston routinely getting shellacked on the boards by teams that DON'T have a clear size advantage?

I think a lot of it has to do with excuse making. One night the Cs are too short, the next night they're not athletic enough, the next game they're too tired, the next game they're too injured, blah blah blah.

Do they not realize that rebounding isn't all about height? Simple boxouts would go a long way toward helping this team rebound better, as would hustle and desire. Some fans are acting like the lack of JO and Wilcox is what cost us this game, and maybe they would've helped, but this is after so many on here have spent all season dumping on those two guys constantly. Make up your minds: do we need them or not? Yes, we could use some more size, but we've gotta have the right mindset in order for that size to do us any good.

[StarzNBarz]

Size is not fools gold. Size is not only helpful for rebounding as the Lakers were also able to play in the post ALOT more. If we had some bigs that could push them out of the post that would've be helpful.

[Celtics4ever]

Size helps a lot in basketball.  Sure some smaller guys with toughness or will break through but the majority of good bigs have good length or size.

This is not grade school.   No one boxes out that much anymore.   I agree that Wilcox and JO would not have made a difference.   The reason we lost is we did not score for a long drought.  Our system foregoes rebounding for transition defense, since Doc was the coach.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Size helps a lot in basketball.  Sure some smaller guys with toughness or will break through but the majority of good bigs have good length or size.

This is not grade school.   No one boxes out that much anymore.   I agree that Wilcox and JO would not have made a difference.   The reason we lost is we did not score for a long drought.  Our system foregoes rebounding for transition defense, since Doc was the coach.

It seems that some people are missing my point, which is this: Yes, size definitely helps, of course it does; and Boston definitely needs some, but Boston still struggles even when it plays teams that DON'T have a size advantage. Why? Because of its lack of mental toughness and fundamentals. I completely disagree with your grade school comment. So are you saying that NBA players are too cool for boxing out? There's a reason boxing out is taught at the lower levels of the sport: it works. It can even help negate a size disadvantage. I think you'd be amazed at how much this team would improve if it simply boxed out and got good rebounding position.

[Celtics18]

Size helps a lot in basketball.  Sure some smaller guys with toughness or will break through but the majority of good bigs have good length or size.

This is not grade school.   No one boxes out that much anymore.   I agree that Wilcox and JO would not have made a difference.   The reason we lost is we did not score for a long drought.  Our system foregoes rebounding for transition defense, since Doc was the coach.

It seems that some people are missing my point, which is this: Yes, size definitely helps, of course it does; and Boston definitely needs some, but Boston still struggles even when it plays teams that DON'T have a size advantage. Why? Because of its lack of mental toughness and fundamentals. I completely disagree with your grade school comment. So are you saying that NBA players are too cool for boxing out? There's a reason boxing out is taught at the lower levels of the sport: it works. It can even help negate a size disadvantage. I think you'd be amazed at how much this team would improve if it simply boxed out and got good rebounding position.

I know that you'll say that I'm just making excuses, but I don't think it's as simple as "just boxing out."  I believe that our defensive helping philosophies often put our bigs in a position where it's not that easy to simply find the nearest body and put your butt on him. 

As with most things, there are pros and cons to the Celtics system.  Despite being below average on the defensive glass, they are still a top defensive team.  I wouldn't trade all the effective switching, hedging, covering and recovering that our bigs do for a slight upgrade in defensive rebounding percentage. 

I think that the guards also need to do a better job of getting in the paint and helping on the defensive glass.  Of course, when Rondo has his big defensive rebounding games, gobbling up every long rebound, people complain that he's just trying to pad stats.

[pearljammer10]

The "excuse" for being outrebounded by other non bynum and gasol tandems is that their bigger than us most of the time anyway. A mix of small and weak at the center spot without a true center, and not being a team that crashes the boards is why other teams outrebound us consistently.

[mmmmm]

'Disagree strongly.  Size is definitely NOT fool's gold.

The most consistent trait across almost all the championship teams over the history of the NBA is having a dominant front line.

As to whether JO or Wilcox would have helped:   In our last game against the Lakers, the 5-man unit of RR+RA+PP+KG+JO was on the floor for 20.6 minutes (mostly against the Laker's starters).  During that time they were a net +7 for a net overall rating of +20 pp100.

The 5-man unit of RR+RA+PP+KG+CW was only on the floor for 2.05 minutes, but was +2.

All in all, the various units that had pairings of any 2 of KG, JO & CW were on the floor in that game for 28.71 minutes and were +5 against the Lakers.

Unfortunately,  we played another 24.29 minutes of that game with various 'small' configurations and we were -6 in those minutes.  So we lost.  By 1 point.

We played tonight's entire game without CW or JO.  We lost by 3 points.

Size matters.

[Who]

Given the team's performances, I am not convinced Doc is spending enough time drilling team defensive rebounding in the limited practices time and shootaround time Doc has.

22nd in defensive rebounding rate. That's really poor. I don't think a team with this personnel should rank so poorly on the defensive glass.

I think part of it is a lack of preparation and emphasis. Not with words (lack of words) but with practice time (lack of practice time). 

[pearljammer10]

Given the team's performances, I am not convinced Doc is spending enough time drilling team defensive rebounding in the limited practices time and shootaround time Doc has.

22nd in defensive rebounding rate. That's really poor. I don't think a team with this personnel should rank so poorly on the defensive glass.

I think part of it is a lack of preparation and emphasis. Not with words (lack of words) but with practice time (lack of practice time). 

Im gonna slightly disagree here. Doc has said in interviews with the media in the past that he doesnt care about rebounds (especially offensive rebounds, and would rather get back on defense rather than get second chance points). I f we had a legit 7 footer in the middle, rebounding numbers would go up. Since we dont we are terrible. I mean garnett is frail and cant use his height to get boards anymore, he cant box anyone out. Pierce is probably our best player.

[Celtics4ever]

I completely disagree with your grade school comment. So are you saying that NBA players are too cool for boxing out?

Name some NBA ballers who box out all the time.  Most of them rely on their athletic ability and size.   A lot of college guys do not even box out these days.  Sure some times they do it but I don't see Dwight Howard boxing out that much even.  Bynum and he both rely on their size.

For the record, it probably would help us but good luck getting guys to do it.  It is a lost skill/art.  It would not work as well as it does at the lower levels because these guys can jump and have long arms.  Each level you go up in sports there are less advantages.   A kid can play good because he is tall or athletic in grade school.  But in college a lot of the kids are tall and athletic.  It is even more so at the NBA level.

[OhioGreen]

I completely disagree with your grade school comment. So are you saying that NBA players are too cool for boxing out?

Name some NBA ballers who box out all the time.  Most of them rely on their athletic ability and size.   A lot of college guys do not even box out these days.  Sure some times they do it but I don't see Dwight Howard boxing out that much even.  Bynum and he both rely on their size.

For the record, it probably would help us but good luck getting guys to do it.  It is a lost skill/art.  It would not work as well as it does at the lower levels because these guys can jump and have long arms.  Each level you go up in sports there are less advantages.   A kid can play good because he is tall or athletic in grade school.  But in college a lot of the kids are tall and athletic.  It is even more so at the NBA level.

I'll name you three in three different generations----Kevin Love, Larry Bird and Paul Silas. No seven footers, no great athleticism, but three great rebounders!

[LooseCannon]

Clearly, this means Ainge should try to build a Nellyball-style team around Rondo with less emphasis on defense.

[Bankshot]

Start Stiesma.  We don't need a great center.

[BASS_THUMPER]

Stiesma needs to start grabbin the rock and stop playin volleyball with it

[Moranis]

I completely disagree with your grade school comment. So are you saying that NBA players are too cool for boxing out?

Name some NBA ballers who box out all the time.  Most of them rely on their athletic ability and size.   A lot of college guys do not even box out these days.  Sure some times they do it but I don't see Dwight Howard boxing out that much even.  Bynum and he both rely on their size.

For the record, it probably would help us but good luck getting guys to do it.  It is a lost skill/art.  It would not work as well as it does at the lower levels because these guys can jump and have long arms.  Each level you go up in sports there are less advantages.   A kid can play good because he is tall or athletic in grade school.  But in college a lot of the kids are tall and athletic.  It is even more so at the NBA level.

I'll name you three in three different generations----Kevin Love, Larry Bird and Paul Silas. No seven footers, no great athleticism, but three great rebounders!

the greatest rebounder in NBA history was 6'7" and a meager 210 pounds because he just plain out worked everyone and boxed out like a fiend (and yes Rodman is the greatest rebounder in NBA history when pace is factored in).