OUTCOACHED versus the Lakers today....?

[Celtics4ever]

Mike Brown did not beat us.  We could not make shots down the stretch.

[CelticG1]

Why wasn't avery bradley in the game!!!! 

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Pietrus was hurt and Bass was hot. Doc tends not to play matchups. Ray stunk it up at the end is true; but is tough to sit any of the big three. Could see defense/offense substitution using Stiemsma/Bass so yes Doc was being Doc.

peitrus was GREAT in the last few minutes he was in..did you miss that put back dunk...the kobe block....where was the hurt...he was on...Bass was cold the last part of the game, and you don't trade hoops with the lakers, bass should have been out because he couldn't stop bynum at all. Bass missed everything and did nothing in the last 5 minutes, to make my point.

In the last 6 minutes, Bass had 4 points and 3 rebounds, that's terrific production. He made both of his shots between minutes 5 and 6 - you're asking Doc to yank a guy who had just scored 4 straight points for you and had the hot hand all game. Bass wasn't even guarding Bynum, I don't know where you're getting that from. KG was guarding him almost the entire game, and exclusively at the end.

no one but steamer really guarded bynum...enough of this same thing over and over....bynum scored when he wanted too, EXCEPT when steamer was on him...he scored only once....bynum backed kg down too easily...and drop that bass score in those minutes, because he didn't.....bass was covering bynum and kg had gasol...steam would have stopped this, and most here saw it.....

[Meadowlark_Scal]

We were leadin, it was the easy ones we have away...bynum tipping that one alley oop in..he was just standing there..uncovered.....I cannot teach you guys basketball here..sorry.

[theswitch]

In what world did Steamer contain Bynum and the Lakers did not have an answer for Pietrus?  The same Pietrus that went 2-7 could not be contained? Come on, now.

You'd rather put in Steamer over KG or Bass? The KG who went 7-11 for 14/11/5? The Bass who really kept us in the game by going basket for basket with Kobe down the stretch?

Pietrus over who? Ray Allen or Paul Pierce?

Nobody is happy about the way the game ended, but let's not put this on Doc. The guy has no legitimate center on the roster and only two legitimate guys who can be called "bigs." Just look at the box score and tell me that the starters didn't completely outplay the bench, he had no choice but to keep those guys in.

Doc is in a terrible situation - you can't put anybody from the bench into the game without cringing. Avery is probably the best of the bunch but he's playing behind Rajon. Dooling has been atrocious. Pietrus has been solid defensively but we need more offensive output from the guy. The Steamer just isn't ready for prime time.

I am sorry you missed the game. It was a good one..! Bynum scored 1 hoop on steamer...1....that is 1 made hoop. He was contained, no free rebounds, put backs, open dunks or layups....BUT.it is not your fault, you missed the game...unless you watched it and missed all of this.....well, what can i say then.....uhm...watch more...LOL...!

In the 1st quarter, Pau Gasol had 6 rebounds once Steamer came in for KG and they matched up on each other in a 6 minute span.

Then, Bynum came in for Pau and in the 48 seconds they were both in the game, Bynum had 2 points and 2 rebounds. In the 2nd, they were matched up for 3 and a half minutes and Bynum had 2 rebounds, no points. So, in total, that's just over 4 minutes matched up and Bynum had 2 points and 4 rebounds.

Steamer came in the 3rd as well. It went something like this:
6:03 - He checks in
5:56 - He sets an illegal screen and gets called for an offensive foul
5:31 - Bad pass, Artest breakaway dunk
In the meantime before he checks out - Steamer has two nice blocks, Bynum has 1 rebound, 2 points


So, here's what we've discovered if we count Bynum and Gasol as the same person (whoever Greg was guarding):
4 points, 11 rebounds in 13 minutes. If we extrapolate that over 39 minutes like KG/Bass have been playing in these games, then the opposing center will have 33 rebounds and 12 points. I guess that's not fair, because he'd foul out way before making it there. Yeah, let's play him against two All-Star centers over KG or Bass. 

[Chief]

You'd rather put in Steamer over KG or Bass? The KG who went 7-11 for 14/11/5? The Bass who really kept us in the game by going basket for basket with Kobe down the stretch?

Pietrus over who? Ray Allen or Paul Pierce?

It's too bad that basketball is not all about scoring. If so, Don Nelson would have 10 NBA titles as a head coach. Unfortunately, as Run TMC learned, there are other aspects to basketball than scoring. Somebody has to do the dirty work. Rebounding, shot blocking, post defense, and perimeter defense are needed to win games too. Doc had options, he chose not to use them.

[BASS_THUMPER]

all i seen mike brown doin all game was sit there with his mouth wide open..


lisa salters is my new crush..omg

[theswitch]

You'd rather put in Steamer over KG or Bass? The KG who went 7-11 for 14/11/5? The Bass who really kept us in the game by going basket for basket with Kobe down the stretch?

Pietrus over who? Ray Allen or Paul Pierce?

It's too bad that basketball is not all about scoring. If so, Don Nelson would have 10 NBA titles as a head coach. Unfortunately, as Run TMC learned, there are other aspects to basketball than scoring. Somebody has to do the dirty work. Rebounding, shot blocking, post defense, and perimeter defense are needed to win games too. Doc had options, he chose not to use them.

You're going to sit Ray or Paul in the last five minutes of a tight basketball game with the Lakers? Come on now, not a single NBA-caliber (or college or high school) coach would make that decision in a million years.

And the scoring does, of course, matter. Bass and KG were pivotal parts of keeping us ahead in the meat of the 4th quarter, before quieting down towards the end. But, you have to keep your hot hand in.

As I pointed out in a previous post, Bynum and Gasol, to the best of my knowledge, were never on the court at their same time against Steamer. Yet in those 13 3/4 minutes, they pulled down 11 of their combined 27 rebounds for the game. They combined for somewhere around 78 minutes for the game. They just ate him on the glass, there's no getting around that. Scoring isn't everything, but it's not like Steamer was dominant otherwise.

[CelticG1]

Looks like 2 people are going to be screaming MVP for Stiems at the next garden home game.

I saw Stiemer guarding Gasol a bit more than Bynum actually.

Also if you are claiming that Doc got outcoached aren't you exaggerating a bit much? I mean, if you think Stiems should have payed an extra 2 possesions late in the game is that really being outcoached or was it one mistake (in your opinion) during the game?

And just want to point out something that I've already said. Even if you think Stiems woudl have been better on defense, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have been whistled for fouls left and right everytime the ball was in the post. You guys watch the NBA you can not deny this. KG and Bass have A LOT more leeway when it comes to defense. I mean Bass completely undercut Bynum on that putback and no call was made. Stiesma was actually pretty good as far as foul trouble but he still had 3 in 14 min. Throwing a guy out there while he is cold, who has just come into the d-league, and who is not that great defensively anyway is an EXTREMELY risky move IMO

[theswitch]

I'll actually take a moment to agree with the premise of the thread (Doc), even though I completely disagree with the argument itself (rotation).

More specifically, it kills me that was the last play of the game. Really? All we could muster was two blocked 3s and a prayer from Rondo? This is usually one of Doc's tremendous strengths, but lately I've been a little disappointed with the end-of-game play-calling.

[Chief]

Also if you are claiming that Doc got outcoached aren't you exaggerating a bit much? I mean, if you think Stiems should have payed an extra 2 possesions late in the game is that really being outcoached or was it one mistake (in your opinion) during the game?

 Throwing a guy out there while he is cold, who has just come into the d-league, and who is not that great defensively anyway is an EXTREMELY risky move IMO

Celtics did lose a winnable game. Up 5 with 2:33 left in the game. I think Doc should do more situational substituting. Pietrus is the best wing defender on the team. And right now Steamer is the only true center.

As far as Steamer goes, I like the kid. Seems to have a good basketball big man IQ. I don't know why some people think he is not good at defense. He was defensive MVP in the D-League. That has to make you an ok defender in the NBA. And you are right, on the play he might have gotten called for the foul. But I doubt Bynum makes that hook shot while getting fouled and he might not make the free throws. He is only 64% from the line this year.


So it all goes back to coaching. Doc plays it safe with the undersized lineup and loses. Honestly, I've seen too much of that this season. Why not take the gamble?

[alley oop]

.

[Tgro]

Mike Brown did not beat us.  We could not make shots down the stretch.

True that.

The game was ours to be had. We should have won this game very easily. The Lakers were on life support. The Celtics were 2 baskets in the last 2 minutes away from putting them to rest. Instead, we went dead cold. Apprehensive on Offense and In-aggressive on Defense. We stopped doing what was working and we stopped executing. We let them go on an 8-0 run to end the game. They executed and we didn't.

I don't think this game is on Doc.

I think this game is on the players.

They had the game won and they blew it.

They choked.  

[GreenFaith1819]

Nope.

Doc was fine, as he is 98-99% of the time.

Easily as good a coach as Carlyle, Pop, Spoelstra - you name it.

We were OUTSIZED by the Laker Goons, today.

Decent game, by them.

But Bynum had better shut his mouth...his trash-talking almost came back to bite him. He has nothing to be proud of - he "outplayed" a 6'11" 250 pound KG and a 6'8" 240 pound Bass.

If ANYTHING, Kobe is saying "Man....we were LUCKY to get this game, today. Rajon Rondo, alone, almost kicked our tails. If they would've had JO or Wilcox, this game might've been different."

[theswitch]

Also if you are claiming that Doc got outcoached aren't you exaggerating a bit much? I mean, if you think Stiems should have payed an extra 2 possesions late in the game is that really being outcoached or was it one mistake (in your opinion) during the game?

 Throwing a guy out there while he is cold, who has just come into the d-league, and who is not that great defensively anyway is an EXTREMELY risky move IMO

Celtics did lose a winnable game. Up 5 with 2:33 left in the game. I think Doc should do more situational substituting. Pietrus is the best wing defender on the team. And right now Steamer is the only true center.

As far as Steamer goes, I like the kid. Seems to have a good basketball big man IQ. I don't know why some people think he is not good at defense. He was defensive MVP in the D-League. That has to make you an ok defender in the NBA. And you are right, on the play he might have gotten called for the foul. But I doubt Bynum makes that hook shot while getting fouled and he might not make the free throws. He is only 64% from the line this year.


So it all goes back to coaching. Doc plays it safe with the undersized lineup and loses. Honestly, I've seen too much of that this season. Why not take the gamble?

Here are the Defensive MVPs of the D-League:
2001–02 Jeff Myers, Greenville Groove
2002–03 Mikki Moore, Roanoke Dazzle
2003–04 Karim Shabazz, Charleston Lowgators
2004–05 Derrick Zimmerman, Columbus Riverdragons
2005–06 Derrick Zimmerman, Austin Toros
2006–07 Renaldo Major, Dakota Wizards
2007–08 Mouhamed Sene, Idaho Stampede, and Stephane Lasme, Los Angeles D-Fenders
2008–09 Brent Petway, Idaho Stampede
2009–10 Greg Stiemsma, Sioux Falls Skyforce
2010–11 Chris Johnson, Dakota Wizards

I'm going to go ahead and doubt your statement that the award means anything.

Let's look at MVP, just to make a point. This is the best player in the D-League:

2001–02 Ansu Sesay, Greenville Groove
2002–03 Devin Brown, Fayetteville Patriots
2003–04 Tierre Brown, Charleston Lowgators
2004–05 Matt Carroll, Roanoke Dazzle
2005–06 Marcus Fizer, Austin Toros
2006–07 Randy Livingston, Idaho Stampede
2007–08 Kasib Powell, Sioux Falls Skyforce
2008–09 Courtney Sims, Iowa Energy
2009–10 Mike Harris, Rio Grande Valley Vipers
2010–11 Curtis Stinson, Iowa Energy

Outside of maybe Matt Carroll, there's just no reason to believe that being anywhere near decent in the D-League means anything, especially against one of the best centers in the NBA.

I like Steamer and think he has a lot to offer between his shot-blocking and jump-shooting. He could certainly get better on defense over the course of the next year or two. I just don't want him to close out games and am not comfortable with him as the 3rd big on the team.