Today's Knicks game is why you don't trade Rajon Rondo

[OmarSekou]

I beg to differ, would love to watch a long string of games with you. Rondo shoots a high percentage on layups because he does not take the same kind of layups as real penetrators who look to create contact and score. Rondo fades from contact more than half the time and he receives more wide open (for the NBA) looks at the rim than any pg I see bc of KG's passing and quality sets.

This is the issue people have with Rondo in a nutshell. If he scores differently it doesn't count because he's not a "real" penetrator. People argue that he's lazy for making the game look easy by making smart decisions. Rondo gets quality looks primarily because he's fast and picks his moments.

He's bad at the end of games because he's not a good shooter. Teams sag off of him. But it's not like they completely ignore him and it's not like he's the only player in the league who receives less attention during crunch time. It's just more obvious with him because he's one of the best players in the league.

The problem is that rondo fan boys always lean on his "uniqueness" and people "not being able to understand his game" to cover up the fact that he is grossly inefficient as a scorer. His true Shooting percentage and pps are horrible. And because of this for all the time he makes the game "look easy" through 3 quarters he can not make it translate to crunch time in tight ball games.

He is a ton of fun to watch and incredibly unique but I would prefer he not be as much fun and be really good at icing games and creating opportunities for people when you have to have the points

He's not a good shooter. He's fine as a scorer because he knows that and creates good shots for himself. He's bad in 4th quarters because teams limit his options to shooting. I think the Celtics know this and should work around it. He can't create opportunities for anyone when they leave him open to shoot.

What 2 players on the Mavs last year were definitively better than Rondo?

[Carhole]

I beg to differ, would love to watch a long string of games with you. Rondo shoots a high percentage on layups because he does not take the same kind of layups as real penetrators who look to create contact and score. Rondo fades from contact more than half the time and he receives more wide open (for the NBA) looks at the rim than any pg I see bc of KG's passing and quality sets.

This is the issue people have with Rondo in a nutshell. If he scores differently it doesn't count because he's not a "real" penetrator. People argue that he's lazy for making the game look easy by making smart decisions. Rondo gets quality looks primarily because he's fast and picks his moments.

He's bad at the end of games because he's not a good shooter. Teams sag off of him. But it's not like they completely ignore him and it's not like he's the only player in the league who receives less attention during crunch time. It's just more obvious with him because he's one of the best players in the league.

The problem is that rondo fan boys always lean on his "uniqueness" and people "not being able to understand his game" to cover up the fact that he is grossly inefficient as a scorer. His true Shooting percentage and pps are horrible. And because of this for all the time he makes the game "look easy" through 3 quarters he can not make it translate to crunch time in tight ball games.

  There are (from hoopdata) 26 point guards that have played in 20 or more games and average  30+ minutes a game. Rondo's 15th in TS% in that list. The average TS% for that group is 53.4, Rondo's at 52.4. He was over 54% in 08-09 and 09-10. Hardly horrible, far from grossly inefficient. I guess being a "fan boy" means having a realistic idea of how Rondo compares to other players.

Stats, love them and way to pull selective stats. Yeah he should have had a higher TS when he was the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. Typically those players do bc of the types of shots they get.

I am looking at his player card right now and i see him with a TS of 51.1 percent and a career points per shot of 1.17 which is awful.

And again you want to compare him to the average of 26 nba players. Are you saying he is an average NBA player, is that the argument on this board every day. No it is how elite he is and if he can position you to win a title. Lets look at elite pgs

C. Paul 1.37 pps 59 TS
Nash 1.35 and 62
Deron 1.28 and 53.6 this year 57+ for career
Westbrook 1.24 and 54.4
Stephen Curry 1.29 and 59.9

and NONE of those players teammates have to play 4 on 5 for the last 6 minutes of every tight game.

[chambers]

could not agree more... 4 triple doubles on the year, 2 this week??? thats unbelievable

It's quite believable. Rondo is stat-padding when he gets close to a triple-double. The freelancing for the 10th rebound today was especially appalling, he gave up a wide open three pointer to Baron Davis in a close game.

Great game and all, but don't tell me the team was the first thing on his mind...

  There were 10-12 minutes left in the game when he got his 10th rebound, I don't think he was panicking over it. As far as I'm concerned he can have games where he pads his stats like he did today as often as he likes.

Yes, and that's precisely what made it mind-boggling. There was so much time in the game that you'd think he'll get 1 rebound in the flow of things without doing anything. And still there he was, clearly hunting for that rebound to the point of hurting the team.

You have got to be kidding me.

I suppose once he got to 16 in each category he was hunting for 20, trying to pad his line further?
Can you point out other times he tried to pad his stats in this game?
You keep referring to him letting Baron Davis (32% career 3 point shooter, who had hit 1 of 8 up until this game in 2012)
shoot an open three.
I'm waiting.
Bar his missed layups, the guy just had an amazing performance and you're accusing him of padding his stats and hurting the team after 18 17 20.
Ok boss.

[Celtics4ever]

The problem is that rondo fan boys always lean on his "uniqueness" and people "not being able to understand his game" to cover up the fact that he is grossly inefficient as a scorer. His true Shooting percentage and pps are horrible. And because of this for all the time he makes the game "look easy" through 3 quarters he can not make it translate to crunch time in tight ball games

Never once have I said something like this am pretty sure you have little knowledge what Rondo fan boys say here since this is only your 210 post.  Rondo isn't really a scorer.   He is a passing PG.  He has never been a clutch scorer for us.

He contributed in many ways to this win.   Leading passer and rebounder.  Rondo has never been our go to guy in the fourth.   I don't know why you all are expecting him to become that. Because he has never done that.

Rondo isn't a superstar.  But he is a good PG.   He will never be a shoot us through the game star.  

[Carhole]

I beg to differ, would love to watch a long string of games with you. Rondo shoots a high percentage on layups because he does not take the same kind of layups as real penetrators who look to create contact and score. Rondo fades from contact more than half the time and he receives more wide open (for the NBA) looks at the rim than any pg I see bc of KG's passing and quality sets.

This is the issue people have with Rondo in a nutshell. If he scores differently it doesn't count because he's not a "real" penetrator. People argue that he's lazy for making the game look easy by making smart decisions. Rondo gets quality looks primarily because he's fast and picks his moments.

He's bad at the end of games because he's not a good shooter. Teams sag off of him. But it's not like they completely ignore him and it's not like he's the only player in the league who receives less attention during crunch time. It's just more obvious with him because he's one of the best players in the league.

The problem is that rondo fan boys always lean on his "uniqueness" and people "not being able to understand his game" to cover up the fact that he is grossly inefficient as a scorer. His true Shooting percentage and pps are horrible. And because of this for all the time he makes the game "look easy" through 3 quarters he can not make it translate to crunch time in tight ball games.

He is a ton of fun to watch and incredibly unique but I would prefer he not be as much fun and be really good at icing games and creating opportunities for people when you have to have the points

He's not a good shooter. He's fine as a scorer because he knows that and creates good shots for himself. He's bad in 4th quarters because teams limit his options to shooting. I think the Celtics know this and should work around it. He can't create opportunities for anyone when they leave him open to shoot.

What 2 players on the Mavs last year were definitively better than Rondo?

Define better, you want 2 players that you would think are better or actually bring equivalent or greater value to a 7 game playoff series?

Bc Dirk and Chandler are better

And the issue isnt necessarily even better, rondo is far better than Kidd at this point but in a close game people actually showed his ability to knock down a 3 pointer some respect

[BballTim]

I beg to differ, would love to watch a long string of games with you. Rondo shoots a high percentage on layups because he does not take the same kind of layups as real penetrators who look to create contact and score. Rondo fades from contact more than half the time and he receives more wide open (for the NBA) looks at the rim than any pg I see bc of KG's passing and quality sets.

This is the issue people have with Rondo in a nutshell. If he scores differently it doesn't count because he's not a "real" penetrator. People argue that he's lazy for making the game look easy by making smart decisions. Rondo gets quality looks primarily because he's fast and picks his moments.

He's bad at the end of games because he's not a good shooter. Teams sag off of him. But it's not like they completely ignore him and it's not like he's the only player in the league who receives less attention during crunch time. It's just more obvious with him because he's one of the best players in the league.

The problem is that rondo fan boys always lean on his "uniqueness" and people "not being able to understand his game" to cover up the fact that he is grossly inefficient as a scorer. His true Shooting percentage and pps are horrible. And because of this for all the time he makes the game "look easy" through 3 quarters he can not make it translate to crunch time in tight ball games.

  There are (from hoopdata) 26 point guards that have played in 20 or more games and average  30+ minutes a game. Rondo's 15th in TS% in that list. The average TS% for that group is 53.4, Rondo's at 52.4. He was over 54% in 08-09 and 09-10. Hardly horrible, far from grossly inefficient. I guess being a "fan boy" means having a realistic idea of how Rondo compares to other players.

Stats, love them and way to pull selective stats. Yeah he should have had a higher TS when he was the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. Typically those players do bc of the types of shots they get.

I am looking at his player card right now and i see him with a TS of 51.1 percent and a career points per shot of 1.17 which is awful.

  Again, if 53% is average, calling 51% awful is simply wishful thinking on your part. That probably amounts to about 1 point scored by Rondo every 3 games or so.

And again you want to compare him to the average of 26 nba players. Are you saying he is an average NBA player, is that the argument on this board every day. No it is how elite he is and if he can position you to win a title.

  Nobody's arguing that Rondo's an elite shooter. Many people consider other aspects to his game as well. There are many things he does that are best or close to best for point guards. You just listed 5-6 point guards that you consider to be elite. So if Deron and Nash are elite, does that mean that they defend and rebound as well as some of the elite point guards? If Westbrook and Curry are elite, does that mean that they pass or run an offense as well as some of the other elite point guards?

[Carhole]

The problem is that rondo fan boys always lean on his "uniqueness" and people "not being able to understand his game" to cover up the fact that he is grossly inefficient as a scorer. His true Shooting percentage and pps are horrible. And because of this for all the time he makes the game "look easy" through 3 quarters he can not make it translate to crunch time in tight ball games

Never once have I said something like this am pretty sure you have little knowledge what Rondo fan boys say here since this is only your 210 post.  Rondo isn't really a scorer.   He is a passing PG.  He has never been a clutch scorer for us.

He contributed in many ways to this win.   Leading passer and rebounder.  Rondo has never been our go to guy in the fourth.   I don't know why you all are expecting him to become that. Because he has never done that.

Rondo isn't a superstar.  But he is a good PG.   He will never be a shoot us through the game star.  

First of all, do you think rondo fan boys only live on this site?

Second this is the third incarnation of a screen name for me, in fact if that is your only screen name to date I have probably made more posts then you (as if that is somehow relevant, you could be a guest on this site for 24 hours and read 10 "rondo is gods gift to basketball and you are all just too stupid to understand him" threads and then soother your self with 10 threads stating the exact opposite opinion.)


3rd - I tend not to post, like to see where peoples heads are at after games, check out the links in the morning etc. Does that somehow make me less of a valid opinion of the overall tenor of the things I read on here then you?

And btw, if you look back at my posts all I am saying is rondo isnt a superstar bc he has some short comings that are hard to overcome (to reach the superstar level) but that he is a good player with some strong skills and some weak ones.

[cman88]

To be fair, jason kidd developed that 3 point shot...he wasnt exactly known as a shooter when he came into the league.

Magic Johnson made a good point when comparing rondo to rose/westbrook on NBA today..maybe hes not the "scorer" they are...but hes a better passer, a better rebounder, better defender..and its not like he's some scrub on the offensive end anyways..he can give you 15ppg..those guys arent giving you 17 rebounds and 20assists

scoring isnt the only way someone can affect a game...rondo is a good #2 or #3 piece on a championship team IMO..he's not being paid like a #1 scorer..but hes a building block

[Ticketz]

Maybe I jumped in the discussion late but if there's a true Celtics fan that's literally putting Jeremy Lin in the same discussion as Rondo , then you have no understanding of the overall game of basketball... Whoever is arguing back with him should cease that talk because that shows you how much they know about the game..

[BballTim]

I would also respond that if you think Rondo can be the second best player on a championship team, then I doubt you watch very much basketball at all

  Just curious, but your main problem with Rondo seems to be his inability to score late in games. If you paired him with a very good clutch scorer, say Pierce from 5-6 years ago, do you think the team could win a title? If not, why not?

[Carhole]

I beg to differ, would love to watch a long string of games with you. Rondo shoots a high percentage on layups because he does not take the same kind of layups as real penetrators who look to create contact and score. Rondo fades from contact more than half the time and he receives more wide open (for the NBA) looks at the rim than any pg I see bc of KG's passing and quality sets.

This is the issue people have with Rondo in a nutshell. If he scores differently it doesn't count because he's not a "real" penetrator. People argue that he's lazy for making the game look easy by making smart decisions. Rondo gets quality looks primarily because he's fast and picks his moments.

He's bad at the end of games because he's not a good shooter. Teams sag off of him. But it's not like they completely ignore him and it's not like he's the only player in the league who receives less attention during crunch time. It's just more obvious with him because he's one of the best players in the league.
[/quote]

The problem is that rondo fan boys always lean on his "uniqueness" and people "not being able to understand his game" to cover up the fact that he is grossly inefficient as a scorer. His true Shooting percentage and pps are horrible. And because of this for all the time he makes the game "look easy" through 3 quarters he can not make it translate to crunch time in tight ball games.

[/quote]

  There are (from hoopdata) 26 point guards that have played in 20 or more games and average  30+ minutes a game. Rondo's 15th in TS% in that list. The average TS% for that group is 53.4, Rondo's at 52.4. He was over 54% in 08-09 and 09-10. Hardly horrible, far from grossly inefficient. I guess being a "fan boy" means having a realistic idea of how Rondo compares to other players.
[/quote]

Stats, love them and way to pull selective stats. Yeah he should have had a higher TS when he was the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. Typically those players do bc of the types of shots they get.

I am looking at his player card right now and i see him with a TS of 51.1 percent and a career points per shot of 1.17 which is awful.[/quote]

  Again, if 53% is average, calling 51% awful is simply wishful thinking on your part. That probably amounts to about 1 point scored by Rondo every 3 games or so.

And again you want to compare him to the average of 26 nba players. Are you saying he is an average NBA player, is that the argument on this board every day. No it is how elite he is and if he can position you to win a title.

 

I listed point guards that he has been rumored to be traded for where everyone said no (nash I do not think was ever actually proposed just a lot of internet ideas) not bc of any special elite list of mine

His points per shot is horrible, horrible! And I view that measure with more weight for all players. Especially seeing that those other players have the pressure to score for their teams night in and night out which tends to trend efficiency statistics down.

Rajon does not, he can shoot when he is open and feels like it. He should have been operating at the highest efficiency possible these past 3 years.

And Rondo's defense is good but overrated he has benefited from being covered for on the back end a lot. All of those per against ratings look real nice when you always lazy over pick and rolls trying to pop the ball out but KG is there making sure all of the angles are covered.

The concept of this OP is that what happened today is why Rondo is an untouchable asset, which is not true. Rajon Rondo will NEVER be the best or second best player on a championship team.

It will not happen. And the league has basically spoken up about his overall value and the league disagrees with the concept that he is top 3 pgs in game.

[Carhole]

I would also respond that if you think Rondo can be the second best player on a championship team, then I doubt you watch very much basketball at all

  Just curious, but your main problem with Rondo seems to be his inability to score late in games. If you paired him with a very good clutch scorer, say Pierce from 5-6 years ago, do you think the team could win a title? If not, why not?

Potentially, but it would be much harder. There is a reason the historically great wings are paired with shooting point guards.

I think if you paired rondo with 3 hall of famers, whose games all compliment each other just a shade on the down side of their primes and one doesnt get a knee injury, you would win 3 titles in a row.

Unfortunately moving forward that situation is probably not going to be reproduced

[cman88]

I would also respond that if you think Rondo can be the second best player on a championship team, then I doubt you watch very much basketball at all

  Just curious, but your main problem with Rondo seems to be his inability to score late in games. If you paired him with a very good clutch scorer, say Pierce from 5-6 years ago, do you think the team could win a title? If not, why not?

and, people forget that rondo is being paid only $10million...its obviously not in ainge's plan to make him the #1 clutch scorer..who that will be, well have to find out

[Carhole]

To be fair, jason kidd developed that 3 point shot...he wasnt exactly known as a shooter when he came into the league.

Magic Johnson made a good point when comparing rondo to rose/westbrook on NBA today..maybe hes not the "scorer" they are...but hes a better passer, a better rebounder, better defender..and its not like he's some scrub on the offensive end anyways..he can give you 15ppg..those guys arent giving you 17 rebounds and 20assists

scoring isnt the only way someone can affect a game...rondo is a good #2 or #3 piece on a championship team IMO..he's not being paid like a #1 scorer..but hes a building block

What talking heads on tv say, especially Magic potentially the biggest talking head of them all who loves everyone is not some sort of valid point to a discussion.

If it was, why did this site explode when Tommy said PP is the best scorer in celtics history? Tommy is in a much better position to say that than Magic is to say anything on a league wide scale.

Jason Kidd did develop it but Jason Kidd also was never the horror show from the FT line that Rondo was showing that maybe the stroke was there that work and concentration could bring it out.

I am not arguing he could be a useful building block, this started as a conversation about PP destroying the offensive flow and getting in the way of a win today only to have Rondo save it and that games like this are why rondo should be untouchable. Lets just say I strongly disagreed with those points

[BballTim]

His points per shot is horrible, horrible! And I view that measure with more weight for all players. Especially seeing that those other players have the pressure to score for their teams night in and night out which tends to trend efficiency statistics down.

  Out of the 28 point guards that meet the qualifications for minutes played on espn, Rondo's 17th. No matter how you spin it, he's slightly below average. He's just not horrible. Not elite, but not awful.

And Rondo's defense is good but overrated he has benefited from being covered for on the back end a lot. All of those per against ratings look real nice when you always lazy over pick and rolls trying to pop the ball out but KG is there making sure all of the angles are covered.

  And yet at the beginning of the year, when KG was playing like he was 40 and the team was a bottom 10 defense, Rondo's numbers were as good as ever.