Author Topic: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo  (Read 12727 times)

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Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2012, 09:10:20 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I think alot of fans are blinded to the obvious defficiencies about Rondo and how its really affecting the team.

  I think that a lot of fans are blinded to the obvious qualities that Rondo possesses and how those qualities affect the team.

I still can't get over the fact that inexperienced point guards in Moore and Bradley, along with Dooling made the Celtics offense run more smoothly that Rondo has this season. Not to say Moor and Bradley are the solution, but it really highlights that Rondo is not a good for this team

  I think that, more than highlighting that Rondo isn't good for the team, it's indicative of the bulk of the criticisms of Rondo. Because, in fact, it never happened. The offense was worse when Rondo was injured. The reason the Celts were winning was because the defense was improving, mainly because KG and PP were getting back into shape and playing much better on that end of the court.

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2012, 09:19:02 AM »

Offline RyNye

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Man, am I sick of this argument. What is with these people that say the team sucks with Rondo, then accuse anyone who disagrees with them of having green-tinted glasses?

Look at the numbers. Every minute that Rondo is on the floor the Celtics play more efficiently. Since 2006, he is second only to Jason Kidd in the number of steals recorded. He is one of the all-time active triple-double leaders, with 10 or 11 in the regular season and another 5 in the playoffs. Heck, he is already on the all-time play-off triple-double leader list, and he's 26. And his contract is a bargain.

Liking Rondo is not having green-tinted glasses. There are just some people who want to leap through hoops to prove he is a bad player for some reason. I really do not understand all the hate for him. Yes, he has weaknesses. Who doesn't? Westbrook struggles defensively and with passing and half-court offense, Derrick Rose is a pretty one-dimensional player (he is [dang]ed good at what he does, but honestly that's the only thing he can do) plus is injury prone, Deron Williams perpetually underachieves, moreso even than Rondo ...

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2012, 10:09:19 AM »

Offline ejk3489

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Is it really considered a "green-tinted" view on Rondo when most of the fanbase wants him traded...?

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2012, 10:27:33 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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The perceptions of those who want Rondo gone are just as green tinted as the ones of those who want him to stay.  I'm sure that if many of the more "objective" fans were watching Russell Westbrook, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, or Derrick Rose play for 82 (or 66) games per season, they'd be picking apart those players' flaws as well.

It's a matter of perspective.  For many fans the grass will always be greener on the other side of the fence.   
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Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2012, 10:47:22 AM »

Offline Eja117

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The perceptions of those who want Rondo gone are just as green tinted as the ones of those who want him to stay.  I'm sure that if many of the more "objective" fans were watching Russell Westbrook, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, or Derrick Rose play for 82 (or 66) games per season, they'd be picking apart those players' flaws as well.

It's a matter of perspective.  For many fans the grass will always be greener on the other side of the fence.   
i totally agree with this..the guy is pretty polarizing, and Avery B has made it more so

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2012, 10:50:23 AM »

Offline Eja117

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The real green tinted view here is on Avery Bradley.  People think he is all world.  I live out of market and I watch whatever league pass provides the C games on.  Rondo is looked upon a legit star.   Bradley is seen as a good on the ball defender.  But folks here think he is the second coming of DJ.

I hope I am wrong on this and I hope he exceeds DJ but we tend to over value our guys here.
Avery has definitely complicated things, but I don't think it's just because we have a 20 year old excellent on the ball guy. I think sometimes perception is reality and when the perception is that Rondo got banged up, Avery came in, and the team started winning, then Rondo came back and it started losing....well....what can we get for him again?

I don't think we should give away Rondo. I totally agree with the team when they say he isn't going anywhere unless we get some sort of star back, but I think taking 85 cents on the dollar might make some sense. It might not be this year. It could be next year if Avery takes another step forward

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2012, 11:01:11 AM »

Offline BballTim

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The real green tinted view here is on Avery Bradley.  People think he is all world.  I live out of market and I watch whatever league pass provides the C games on.  Rondo is looked upon a legit star.   Bradley is seen as a good on the ball defender.  But folks here think he is the second coming of DJ.

I hope I am wrong on this and I hope he exceeds DJ but we tend to over value our guys here.
Avery has definitely complicated things, but I don't think it's just because we have a 20 year old excellent on the ball guy. I think sometimes perception is reality and when the perception is that Rondo got banged up, Avery came in, and the team started winning, then Rondo came back and it started losing....well....what can we get for him again?

  Yeah, I remember some of the "the team plays better without Rondo" crowd licking their chops when he got his 2 game suspension. How'd that work out? And I think that Bradley's a very good defender, but did the people who think he's vastly superior to Rondo just watch the Orlando games and miss the Clev/Wash games?

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 11:12:52 AM »

Offline Chris

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The real green tinted view here is on Avery Bradley.  People think he is all world.  I live out of market and I watch whatever league pass provides the C games on.  Rondo is looked upon a legit star.   Bradley is seen as a good on the ball defender.  But folks here think he is the second coming of DJ.

I hope I am wrong on this and I hope he exceeds DJ but we tend to over value our guys here.
Avery has definitely complicated things, but I don't think it's just because we have a 20 year old excellent on the ball guy. I think sometimes perception is reality and when the perception is that Rondo got banged up, Avery came in, and the team started winning, then Rondo came back and it started losing....well....what can we get for him again?

  Yeah, I remember some of the "the team plays better without Rondo" crowd licking their chops when he got his 2 game suspension. How'd that work out? And I think that Bradley's a very good defender, but did the people who think he's vastly superior to Rondo just watch the Orlando games and miss the Clev/Wash games?


Right, because Pierce has been incredibly mediocre after carrying the team on his back for 10 games around when Rondo was out. 

I absolutely think the team has played their best basketball of the season when Rondo was out with the injury, because Pierce was playing at the top of his game, which seemed to hold everything else together, and the pieces fit.

I really think this team has reached a point where Rondo and the Big 3 (Pierce especially) simply do not fit together.  Rondo is held back when guys don't run with him, and Pierce in particular can't be effective in a running game, and needs guys more comfortable in a grind it out type game, which Rondo does not excel at.

It is just a square peg and a round hole.

But I think Wojo made a terrific point on WEEI this morning, as he was shooting down Rondo rumors (he even said his sources believe the C's and Lakers have never talked about Rondo for Gasol).  He pointed out that, regardless of whether they plan to rebuild around Rondo or not, it makes absolutely no sense to trade him now, unless it is for a superstar.  Danny's #1 goal in rebuilding this team is to find the next superstar (or two) to bring them back to the top.  And to do that, you need either an enticing core for them to come as free agents (which is much harder to do), or you need a centerpiece of a trade for a star shooting his way out of town.  And right now, the organization has nothing anywhere close to Rondo as far as that piece goes.  They NEED to hold on to Rondo, if they are going to ultimately get that superstar.

So, whether we like it or not, Rondo is sticking around, at least until the summer, and possibly beyond that.

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012, 11:13:37 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Recently I would swear that a very loud group of bloggers on this site have more of a purple and gold tinted view of Rondo and not a green tinted one.

Rondo's not a good fit for this team? I say the team is getting old around Rondo and is not a good fit to him. How many times does Rondo or Bradley have to lead a break without a single player running it with them. Wilcox is the ONLY big that runs a fast break. Forget Ray, Paul, KG, Bass, Pietrus, or Dooling running a proper fast break. It never happens. Given that 4-5 of those players won't be Celtics in the very near future, my guess is Ainge will find players that will play Rondo's style and get a better fit.

In the mean time, Rondo is a 3 time All-Star, NBA championship winning, 1st tea All-Defense quality, 26 year old PG and one of the best floor generals in the league. He might be the best pure passing PG in the league. You use that to build a team with and this team is going to be rebuilt so best to have an asset already in place to an extremely team friendly contract.

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2012, 11:37:39 AM »

Offline BballTim

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The real green tinted view here is on Avery Bradley.  People think he is all world.  I live out of market and I watch whatever league pass provides the C games on.  Rondo is looked upon a legit star.   Bradley is seen as a good on the ball defender.  But folks here think he is the second coming of DJ.

I hope I am wrong on this and I hope he exceeds DJ but we tend to over value our guys here.
Avery has definitely complicated things, but I don't think it's just because we have a 20 year old excellent on the ball guy. I think sometimes perception is reality and when the perception is that Rondo got banged up, Avery came in, and the team started winning, then Rondo came back and it started losing....well....what can we get for him again?

  Yeah, I remember some of the "the team plays better without Rondo" crowd licking their chops when he got his 2 game suspension. How'd that work out? And I think that Bradley's a very good defender, but did the people who think he's vastly superior to Rondo just watch the Orlando games and miss the Clev/Wash games?


Right, because Pierce has been incredibly mediocre after carrying the team on his back for 10 games around when Rondo was out. 

I absolutely think the team has played their best basketball of the season when Rondo was out with the injury, because Pierce was playing at the top of his game, which seemed to hold everything else together, and the pieces fit.

I really think this team has reached a point where Rondo and the Big 3 (Pierce especially) simply do not fit together.  Rondo is held back when guys don't run with him, and Pierce in particular can't be effective in a running game, and needs guys more comfortable in a grind it out type game, which Rondo does not excel at.

It is just a square peg and a round hole.


  The team's offense wasn't playing better when Rondo was out with an injury. Rondo and Pierce are clashing on offense this year, a lot like they were in 2009-2010. I'm starting to think that Paul wants to control the ball more, even though things run more efficiently when Rondo does. In any case, if Rondo and the big three aren't a great fit, and everyone agrees that the big three are on the downswing, getting rid of Rondo for a pg that meshes better with them seems foolish.

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2012, 12:48:44 PM »

Offline Tone

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I think eventually Rondo will be traded

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2012, 12:57:51 PM »

Offline Chris

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The real green tinted view here is on Avery Bradley.  People think he is all world.  I live out of market and I watch whatever league pass provides the C games on.  Rondo is looked upon a legit star.   Bradley is seen as a good on the ball defender.  But folks here think he is the second coming of DJ.

I hope I am wrong on this and I hope he exceeds DJ but we tend to over value our guys here.
Avery has definitely complicated things, but I don't think it's just because we have a 20 year old excellent on the ball guy. I think sometimes perception is reality and when the perception is that Rondo got banged up, Avery came in, and the team started winning, then Rondo came back and it started losing....well....what can we get for him again?

  Yeah, I remember some of the "the team plays better without Rondo" crowd licking their chops when he got his 2 game suspension. How'd that work out? And I think that Bradley's a very good defender, but did the people who think he's vastly superior to Rondo just watch the Orlando games and miss the Clev/Wash games?


Right, because Pierce has been incredibly mediocre after carrying the team on his back for 10 games around when Rondo was out. 

I absolutely think the team has played their best basketball of the season when Rondo was out with the injury, because Pierce was playing at the top of his game, which seemed to hold everything else together, and the pieces fit.

I really think this team has reached a point where Rondo and the Big 3 (Pierce especially) simply do not fit together.  Rondo is held back when guys don't run with him, and Pierce in particular can't be effective in a running game, and needs guys more comfortable in a grind it out type game, which Rondo does not excel at.

It is just a square peg and a round hole.


  The team's offense wasn't playing better when Rondo was out with an injury. Rondo and Pierce are clashing on offense this year, a lot like they were in 2009-2010. I'm starting to think that Paul wants to control the ball more, even though things run more efficiently when Rondo does. In any case, if Rondo and the big three aren't a great fit, and everyone agrees that the big three are on the downswing, getting rid of Rondo for a pg that meshes better with them seems foolish.


Yeah, the offense was not better (although I believe they turned the ball over a lot less when Rondo was out...but also got fewer easy shots), but overall the team clicked better, because they didn't have the clash in styles.  Everything was streamlined, and everyone knew their role.

Currently, when Rondo and Pierce are both on the floor, I don't think anyone really knows their role, because their skillsets are just clashing so much at this point in their careers.

As for trading for a PG that meshes better, I agree, that is not the solution...unless the PG is a better player.  If you can trade Rondo for a real superstar PG who fits better (like Williams, if he resigned), then of course it makes sense, because then you have a superstar to build around.  But at this point in the teams arc, the number one thing needs to be value.  So, if you can't get that superstar for Rondo now, and you can't get $1.25 on the dollar for him, then you need to hold on to him, so you can use that value when the opportunity presents itself.

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2012, 01:11:38 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The real green tinted view here is on Avery Bradley.  People think he is all world.  I live out of market and I watch whatever league pass provides the C games on.  Rondo is looked upon a legit star.   Bradley is seen as a good on the ball defender.  But folks here think he is the second coming of DJ.

I hope I am wrong on this and I hope he exceeds DJ but we tend to over value our guys here.
Avery has definitely complicated things, but I don't think it's just because we have a 20 year old excellent on the ball guy. I think sometimes perception is reality and when the perception is that Rondo got banged up, Avery came in, and the team started winning, then Rondo came back and it started losing....well....what can we get for him again?

  Yeah, I remember some of the "the team plays better without Rondo" crowd licking their chops when he got his 2 game suspension. How'd that work out? And I think that Bradley's a very good defender, but did the people who think he's vastly superior to Rondo just watch the Orlando games and miss the Clev/Wash games?


Right, because Pierce has been incredibly mediocre after carrying the team on his back for 10 games around when Rondo was out. 

I absolutely think the team has played their best basketball of the season when Rondo was out with the injury, because Pierce was playing at the top of his game, which seemed to hold everything else together, and the pieces fit.

I really think this team has reached a point where Rondo and the Big 3 (Pierce especially) simply do not fit together.  Rondo is held back when guys don't run with him, and Pierce in particular can't be effective in a running game, and needs guys more comfortable in a grind it out type game, which Rondo does not excel at.

It is just a square peg and a round hole.


  The team's offense wasn't playing better when Rondo was out with an injury. Rondo and Pierce are clashing on offense this year, a lot like they were in 2009-2010. I'm starting to think that Paul wants to control the ball more, even though things run more efficiently when Rondo does. In any case, if Rondo and the big three aren't a great fit, and everyone agrees that the big three are on the downswing, getting rid of Rondo for a pg that meshes better with them seems foolish.


Yeah, the offense was not better (although I believe they turned the ball over a lot less when Rondo was out...but also got fewer easy shots), but overall the team clicked better, because they didn't have the clash in styles.  Everything was streamlined, and everyone knew their role.

Currently, when Rondo and Pierce are both on the floor, I don't think anyone really knows their role, because their skillsets are just clashing so much at this point in their careers.


  I think that 2 things are going on. One, Rondo/Pierce. Two, Rondo/big three, not that they're clashing, but they (meaning the big three as well as Rondo) all need to accept that the big three should be complementary pieces to Rondo and he needs to assert himself more and defer to them less.

Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012, 02:30:58 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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The real green tinted view here is on Avery Bradley.  People think he is all world.  I live out of market and I watch whatever league pass provides the C games on.  Rondo is looked upon a legit star.   Bradley is seen as a good on the ball defender.  But folks here think he is the second coming of DJ.

I hope I am wrong on this and I hope he exceeds DJ but we tend to over value our guys here.
Avery has definitely complicated things, but I don't think it's just because we have a 20 year old excellent on the ball guy. I think sometimes perception is reality and when the perception is that Rondo got banged up, Avery came in, and the team started winning, then Rondo came back and it started losing....well....what can we get for him again?

  Yeah, I remember some of the "the team plays better without Rondo" crowd licking their chops when he got his 2 game suspension. How'd that work out? And I think that Bradley's a very good defender, but did the people who think he's vastly superior to Rondo just watch the Orlando games and miss the Clev/Wash games?


Right, because Pierce has been incredibly mediocre after carrying the team on his back for 10 games around when Rondo was out. 

I absolutely think the team has played their best basketball of the season when Rondo was out with the injury, because Pierce was playing at the top of his game, which seemed to hold everything else together, and the pieces fit.

I really think this team has reached a point where Rondo and the Big 3 (Pierce especially) simply do not fit together.  Rondo is held back when guys don't run with him, and Pierce in particular can't be effective in a running game, and needs guys more comfortable in a grind it out type game, which Rondo does not excel at.

It is just a square peg and a round hole.


  The team's offense wasn't playing better when Rondo was out with an injury. Rondo and Pierce are clashing on offense this year, a lot like they were in 2009-2010. I'm starting to think that Paul wants to control the ball more, even though things run more efficiently when Rondo does. In any case, if Rondo and the big three aren't a great fit, and everyone agrees that the big three are on the downswing, getting rid of Rondo for a pg that meshes better with them seems foolish.


Yeah, the offense was not better (although I believe they turned the ball over a lot less when Rondo was out...but also got fewer easy shots), but overall the team clicked better, because they didn't have the clash in styles.  Everything was streamlined, and everyone knew their role.

Currently, when Rondo and Pierce are both on the floor, I don't think anyone really knows their role, because their skillsets are just clashing so much at this point in their careers.


  I think that 2 things are going on. One, Rondo/Pierce. Two, Rondo/big three, not that they're clashing, but they (meaning the big three as well as Rondo) all need to accept that the big three should be complementary pieces to Rondo and he needs to assert himself more and defer to them less.

I think everyone has gotten to the bottom of our offensive problems in this thread.  I agree that Pierce and Rondo, in particular, are having trouble defining their roles together in this offense right now. 

However, this is not an issue that is new to this Celtics team.  They've worked it out before and they can work it out again.  In some ways I think that the 10 game stretch where the team was looking good with Paul playing like an all star and running the show may have had some negative side effects.  Why shouldn't Paul feel like the ball ought to be in his hands most of the time based on that run?

I love Paul Pierce, but I disagree with him.  If he and his team want any chance at pulling an upset in the playoffs, Rondo needs to be the primary play maker.  Paul will accept this, as he has before, and reconcile himself to being more of an off-the-ball and safety valve guy offensively who does the unheralded dirty work in the team defense.

When the natural order of everybody's roles gets set right again and the chemistry gets back to a place where we know it can get with this team, then I believe we will be a real danger come playoff time.
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Re: Challenging the Green-Tinted view of Rondo
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2012, 03:31:05 PM »

Offline OmarSekou

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People have already said it but the OP is off because he is trying to argue that people overlook Rondo's weaknesses. Everyone knows Rondo's weaknesses, they are obvious. What the OP doesn't do is look at the totality of Rondo's game. Despite his weaknesses, Rondo is at worst a top 8 PG in the league and at best a top 3 one. The argument that he didn't see a drop off in the PG play with our backups shows that maybe people who are eager to take 80 cents on the dollar for Rondo are not aware of that similarly obvious fact.

Rondo is ideal fit for this team. He's a defensive minded distributor. That's exactly what this team needs most and Rondo is as good at those things as anyone in the league.

Our team does not need a PG who can shoot or a player who can score. Our offense has 3 of the best. What we need is someone to create opportunities for those 3 because they cannot create their own shots like they could in their prime. It would be great if Rondo could shoot and score (and occasionally he does) but that isn't what we need from a PG.

This team might not be the ideal fit for Rondo (he doesn't get to run in the open court as much), but outside of Chris Paul and arguably DWill, there is not a better fit for this team. The idea that we could insert any PG into our offense, and the team would compensate for the absence of Rondo's playmaking ability by having the new guy take jump shots is absurd. That doesn't even take into account that he wreaks havoc on defense.

Our backups have not performed well. They have performed adequately when Rondo has been out. But I'm not sure that any of them have shown enough for me to feel confident of any of them being a back up PG in the playoffs, let alone a starter. And the playoffs are what matters. Championships are what matter. The Celtics have never been easy to defend in the playoffs. Rondo has never been easy to defend in the playoffs.

Did the Lakers exploit him? Absolutely. But that was in the finals against the best team in the league against Kobe Bryant who is one of the smartest players ever. Imagine what he would do to Bradley in that situation. The other team that shut down Rondo was the Heat. They are exceptionally athletic on D and even then, it took Dwayne Wade body slamming Rondo to fully contain him.

Rondo has improved as an off the dribble shooter, but he's never going to be Ray Allen. He's never going to be reliable for 20+ points a game and if he is it means whatever team he's on is in trouble.

Quote
It gets stressful, as the his teammates have to expend alot of energy and work extra hard to score points. You could make the case that Rondo's passing gives his teammates easy open looks. But if you think about it, if he gets 15 assists that is only 15 plays he completed. All of his other plays  are turnovers, holding the ball, shooting 3 pointers with 2 seconds on the shotclock, etc

Rondo's teammates expend less energy when he is on the court. When Rondo's not getting assists, he's running set plays in the offense, getting rebounds, or giving space for other guys to operate. He makes some bad decisions, and his look worse than most. But blaming Rondo for his turnovers is one thing, blaming him for when other guys don't perform is another. That's what happens way too much on here. When Rondo scores, he should've passed. When he makes a bad pass, he should have made a different pass. When he makes a steal it doesn't count because he plays "lazy" D. When he rebounds it doesn't count because he's playing out of position? (I honestly have no idea why people don't count his rebounding). Somehow Rondo's bad decisions and deficiencies are so obvious to everyone except for the people who have to play with him and against him every night.

The logic that we should trade him for someone who is statistically worse, evaluated worse, and generally considered worse because that player does a few things better than Rondo is flawed. If we can get someone better than Rondo (a top 20 player) for a reasonable price then let's do it. If we can't, let's not force out our best player because of the hope that bringing in someone different will somehow magically make us contenders.
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