2012 T-Wolves > 2012 Celtics

[The Walker Wiggle]

Hopefully people stop hating on Kahn, though.  Before this season, things seemed totally chaotic and awful over there in Minnesota, but this season it appears his plan has come together beautifully.

Eh, don't give Kahn too much credit.  He drafted Rubio (who fell in the draft) and Pekovic (who was projected by everyone at #31).  Otherwise, what has he done that has been special?  Maybe the Michael Beasley trade, when Miami absolutely gave him away?  

He drafted Johnny Flynn over the obvious choice in Stephen Curry; how good would a core of Rubio/Curry/Love/Pekovic look?  He drafted Wesley Johnson over DeMarcus Cousins and Greg Monroe, among others.  That's two absolute busts with top-six picks, when there were multiple high-caliber players left.

Credit Kahn with hiring Rick Adelman, who is a tremendous coach.  Otherwise, I think he deserves most of the criticism that he gets.  Just by taking the obvious picks at his available draft slots (Curry and Cousins) he could have built the most talented young team in the league

The man makes a good point. Let's also all recall, Kahn just refused to offer Love a five year contract extension and now has him signed for only three years. How good is the outlook for a Love-less Timberwolves in 2016?

Other Kahn embarrassments?

Rather than trade Jefferson to Phoenix for Amare Stoudemire, he turned Big Al into Kosta Koufos, the draft rights to Donatas Motiejunas and what could still turn into the Utah Jazz's 2014 second round pick - it's top 12 protected through 2013.

He turned the draft rights to Ty Lawson into Luke Babbitt into a trade chip for Martell Webster.

The shameful two month firing of Kurt Rambis.

[PosImpos]

Well, let's think about how they got there.

They assembled a boat-ton of draft picks, usually pretty high ones.  They hit and missed, mostly missed, and looked stupid doing things like overloading at certain positions, PG for a while, SFs for a while.

They use cap space to simply absorb talent from Miami.

They hired a rookie, idiot head coach for a couple of years when they were pretty much hopeless anyway

Their players start to develop, Love becomes allstar material, Rubio comes over, and they hire the best coach out there to bring it all together and make sense of it all.

and then, PRESTO, they're a decent team, still with room to grow.

Danny followed a similar path selling off Toine the first time and getting in on other deals to acquire picks, but then cashed out for Ray and KG.  Will Minny do the same?

Well, it shows you that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go . . . even if you're dumb, if you get enough high picks eventually you'll get enough hits that you'll end up with something good.

Eh, for every OKC, maybe Minny, Portland for a minute (before injuries robbed them) ther are just as many Milwaukee's, Charlotte's, Clippers (until now-after what, 30+ years?).

Rebuilding through the draft is not any more surefire than through proper use of cap space (whether that means trades or outright FA signings).

Show me a team that has built a title contender without using high draft picks to get there.


Look, it's not all about drafting.  Most contenders have to make some smart trades, get some good free agents, and hire the right coach to really become elite.  But it's necessary to get at least one major piece through the draft, or trading a high draft pick.

Detroit, circa 2004.

Edit:  I'd probably throw both the Lakers' most recent runs into this category as well.  Kobe wasn't really their pick.  Everyone else (except Bynum-can't remember what pick he was) of substance was aquired through trade or FA.

So, the one team in the last 40 years that's done it without a highly drafted superstar, and the Lakers, who poached a superstar free agent from the team that drafted them.

We're extremely unlikely to duplicate teh success of either.

Any other examples?

[Who]

Well, let's think about how they got there.

They assembled a boat-ton of draft picks, usually pretty high ones.  They hit and missed, mostly missed, and looked stupid doing things like overloading at certain positions, PG for a while, SFs for a while.

They use cap space to simply absorb talent from Miami.

They hired a rookie, idiot head coach for a couple of years when they were pretty much hopeless anyway

Their players start to develop, Love becomes allstar material, Rubio comes over, and they hire the best coach out there to bring it all together and make sense of it all.

and then, PRESTO, they're a decent team, still with room to grow.

Danny followed a similar path selling off Toine the first time and getting in on other deals to acquire picks, but then cashed out for Ray and KG.  Will Minny do the same?

Well, it shows you that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go . . . even if you're dumb, if you get enough high picks eventually you'll get enough hits that you'll end up with something good.

Eh, for every OKC, maybe Minny, Portland for a minute (before injuries robbed them) ther are just as many Milwaukee's, Charlotte's, Clippers (until now-after what, 30+ years?).

Rebuilding through the draft is not any more surefire than through proper use of cap space (whether that means trades or outright FA signings).

Show me a team that has built a title contender without using high draft picks to get there.


Look, it's not all about drafting.  Most contenders have to make some smart trades, get some good free agents, and hire the right coach to really become elite.  But it's necessary to get at least one major piece through the draft, or trading a high draft pick.

Detroit, circa 2004.

Edit:  I'd probably throw both the Lakers' most recent runs into this category as well.  Kobe wasn't really their pick.  Everyone else (except Bynum-can't remember what pick he was) of substance was aquired through trade or FA.

So, the one team in the last 40 years that's done it without a highly drafted superstar, and the Lakers, who poached a superstar free agent from the team that drafted them.

We're extremely unlikely to duplicate teh success of either.

Any other examples?

Seattle 1979

[jdpapa3]

I object to the title of the thread because I think we would have them in a series so I guess it depends on if you are talking regular season or playoffs.

[PosImpos]

Well, let's think about how they got there.

They assembled a boat-ton of draft picks, usually pretty high ones.  They hit and missed, mostly missed, and looked stupid doing things like overloading at certain positions, PG for a while, SFs for a while.

They use cap space to simply absorb talent from Miami.

They hired a rookie, idiot head coach for a couple of years when they were pretty much hopeless anyway

Their players start to develop, Love becomes allstar material, Rubio comes over, and they hire the best coach out there to bring it all together and make sense of it all.

and then, PRESTO, they're a decent team, still with room to grow.

Danny followed a similar path selling off Toine the first time and getting in on other deals to acquire picks, but then cashed out for Ray and KG.  Will Minny do the same?

Well, it shows you that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go . . . even if you're dumb, if you get enough high picks eventually you'll get enough hits that you'll end up with something good.

Eh, for every OKC, maybe Minny, Portland for a minute (before injuries robbed them) ther are just as many Milwaukee's, Charlotte's, Clippers (until now-after what, 30+ years?).

Rebuilding through the draft is not any more surefire than through proper use of cap space (whether that means trades or outright FA signings).

Show me a team that has built a title contender without using high draft picks to get there.


Look, it's not all about drafting.  Most contenders have to make some smart trades, get some good free agents, and hire the right coach to really become elite.  But it's necessary to get at least one major piece through the draft, or trading a high draft pick.

Detroit, circa 2004.

Edit:  I'd probably throw both the Lakers' most recent runs into this category as well.  Kobe wasn't really their pick.  Everyone else (except Bynum-can't remember what pick he was) of substance was aquired through trade or FA.

So, the one team in the last 40 years that's done it without a highly drafted superstar, and the Lakers, who poached a superstar free agent from the team that drafted them.

We're extremely unlikely to duplicate teh success of either.

Any other examples?

Seattle 1979

So two relevant examples (we can't hope to do what the Lakers did) -- and one of them is from over 30 years ago.

[Moranis]

Well, let's think about how they got there.

They assembled a boat-ton of draft picks, usually pretty high ones.  They hit and missed, mostly missed, and looked stupid doing things like overloading at certain positions, PG for a while, SFs for a while.

They use cap space to simply absorb talent from Miami.

They hired a rookie, idiot head coach for a couple of years when they were pretty much hopeless anyway

Their players start to develop, Love becomes allstar material, Rubio comes over, and they hire the best coach out there to bring it all together and make sense of it all.

and then, PRESTO, they're a decent team, still with room to grow.

Danny followed a similar path selling off Toine the first time and getting in on other deals to acquire picks, but then cashed out for Ray and KG.  Will Minny do the same?

Well, it shows you that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go . . . even if you're dumb, if you get enough high picks eventually you'll get enough hits that you'll end up with something good.

Eh, for every OKC, maybe Minny, Portland for a minute (before injuries robbed them) ther are just as many Milwaukee's, Charlotte's, Clippers (until now-after what, 30+ years?).

Rebuilding through the draft is not any more surefire than through proper use of cap space (whether that means trades or outright FA signings).

Show me a team that has built a title contender without using high draft picks to get there.


Look, it's not all about drafting.  Most contenders have to make some smart trades, get some good free agents, and hire the right coach to really become elite.  But it's necessary to get at least one major piece through the draft, or trading a high draft pick.

Detroit, circa 2004.

Edit:  I'd probably throw both the Lakers' most recent runs into this category as well.  Kobe wasn't really their pick.  Everyone else (except Bynum-can't remember what pick he was) of substance was aquired through trade or FA.

So, the one team in the last 40 years that's done it without a highly drafted superstar, and the Lakers, who poached a superstar free agent from the team that drafted them.

We're extremely unlikely to duplicate teh success of either.

Any other examples?

Seattle 1979

Sikma was the 8th pick, Brown was the 6th pick, and they had a couple of other high draft picks that were from other teams as well.

[Who]

Well, let's think about how they got there.

They assembled a boat-ton of draft picks, usually pretty high ones.  They hit and missed, mostly missed, and looked stupid doing things like overloading at certain positions, PG for a while, SFs for a while.

They use cap space to simply absorb talent from Miami.

They hired a rookie, idiot head coach for a couple of years when they were pretty much hopeless anyway

Their players start to develop, Love becomes allstar material, Rubio comes over, and they hire the best coach out there to bring it all together and make sense of it all.

and then, PRESTO, they're a decent team, still with room to grow.

Danny followed a similar path selling off Toine the first time and getting in on other deals to acquire picks, but then cashed out for Ray and KG.  Will Minny do the same?

Well, it shows you that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go . . . even if you're dumb, if you get enough high picks eventually you'll get enough hits that you'll end up with something good.

Eh, for every OKC, maybe Minny, Portland for a minute (before injuries robbed them) ther are just as many Milwaukee's, Charlotte's, Clippers (until now-after what, 30+ years?).

Rebuilding through the draft is not any more surefire than through proper use of cap space (whether that means trades or outright FA signings).

Show me a team that has built a title contender without using high draft picks to get there.


Look, it's not all about drafting.  Most contenders have to make some smart trades, get some good free agents, and hire the right coach to really become elite.  But it's necessary to get at least one major piece through the draft, or trading a high draft pick.

Detroit, circa 2004.

Edit:  I'd probably throw both the Lakers' most recent runs into this category as well.  Kobe wasn't really their pick.  Everyone else (except Bynum-can't remember what pick he was) of substance was aquired through trade or FA.

So, the one team in the last 40 years that's done it without a highly drafted superstar, and the Lakers, who poached a superstar free agent from the team that drafted them.

We're extremely unlikely to duplicate teh success of either.

Any other examples?

Seattle 1979

Sikma was the 8th pick, Brown was the 6th pick, and they had a couple of other high draft picks that were from other teams as well.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I meant the non-superstar part. Championship team without a superstar (like 2004 Pistons).

Not that it wasn't built with high picks.

[Moranis]

Well, let's think about how they got there.

They assembled a boat-ton of draft picks, usually pretty high ones.  They hit and missed, mostly missed, and looked stupid doing things like overloading at certain positions, PG for a while, SFs for a while.

They use cap space to simply absorb talent from Miami.

They hired a rookie, idiot head coach for a couple of years when they were pretty much hopeless anyway

Their players start to develop, Love becomes allstar material, Rubio comes over, and they hire the best coach out there to bring it all together and make sense of it all.

and then, PRESTO, they're a decent team, still with room to grow.

Danny followed a similar path selling off Toine the first time and getting in on other deals to acquire picks, but then cashed out for Ray and KG.  Will Minny do the same?

Well, it shows you that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go . . . even if you're dumb, if you get enough high picks eventually you'll get enough hits that you'll end up with something good.

Eh, for every OKC, maybe Minny, Portland for a minute (before injuries robbed them) ther are just as many Milwaukee's, Charlotte's, Clippers (until now-after what, 30+ years?).

Rebuilding through the draft is not any more surefire than through proper use of cap space (whether that means trades or outright FA signings).

Show me a team that has built a title contender without using high draft picks to get there.


Look, it's not all about drafting.  Most contenders have to make some smart trades, get some good free agents, and hire the right coach to really become elite.  But it's necessary to get at least one major piece through the draft, or trading a high draft pick.

Detroit, circa 2004.

Edit:  I'd probably throw both the Lakers' most recent runs into this category as well.  Kobe wasn't really their pick.  Everyone else (except Bynum-can't remember what pick he was) of substance was aquired through trade or FA.

So, the one team in the last 40 years that's done it without a highly drafted superstar, and the Lakers, who poached a superstar free agent from the team that drafted them.

We're extremely unlikely to duplicate teh success of either.

Any other examples?

Seattle 1979

Sikma was the 8th pick, Brown was the 6th pick, and they had a couple of other high draft picks that were from other teams as well.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I meant the non-superstar part. Championship team without a superstar (like 2004 Pistons).

Not that it wasn't built with high picks.

I figured as much, but that is why I responded.  The 04 Pistons had quite a few high picks as well (billups, sheed, hamilton, williamson, darko), but they weren't drafted by the Pistons (aside from Darko of course), which was the point I think he was making. 

[Celtics18]

Well, let's think about how they got there.

They assembled a boat-ton of draft picks, usually pretty high ones.  They hit and missed, mostly missed, and looked stupid doing things like overloading at certain positions, PG for a while, SFs for a while.

They use cap space to simply absorb talent from Miami.

They hired a rookie, idiot head coach for a couple of years when they were pretty much hopeless anyway

Their players start to develop, Love becomes allstar material, Rubio comes over, and they hire the best coach out there to bring it all together and make sense of it all.

and then, PRESTO, they're a decent team, still with room to grow.

Danny followed a similar path selling off Toine the first time and getting in on other deals to acquire picks, but then cashed out for Ray and KG.  Will Minny do the same?

Well, it shows you that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go . . . even if you're dumb, if you get enough high picks eventually you'll get enough hits that you'll end up with something good.

Yeah, that's it.  Tank for six straight years until you finally get to a place where you have an outside shot at making the playoffs.  That's definitely the way to go.

[Q_FBE]

Well, let's think about how they got there.

They assembled a boat-ton of draft picks, usually pretty high ones.  They hit and missed, mostly missed, and looked stupid doing things like overloading at certain positions, PG for a while, SFs for a while.

They use cap space to simply absorb talent from Miami.

They hired a rookie, idiot head coach for a couple of years when they were pretty much hopeless anyway

Their players start to develop, Love becomes allstar material, Rubio comes over, and they hire the best coach out there to bring it all together and make sense of it all.

and then, PRESTO, they're a decent team, still with room to grow.

Danny followed a similar path selling off Toine the first time and getting in on other deals to acquire picks, but then cashed out for Ray and KG.  Will Minny do the same?

Well, it shows you that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go . . . even if you're dumb, if you get enough high picks eventually you'll get enough hits that you'll end up with something good.

Yeah, that's it.  Tank for six straight years until you finally get to a place where you have an outside shot at making the playoffs.  That's definitely the way to go.

For most of the league franchises, that is their only path to marginal success. They don't have the resources to attract the big name FAs. And once their young stars are ready for their big contract, they often look elsewhere to win. The Clippers got their lucky break when CP3 joined forces with Blake Griffen to become a top 4 WC team.

Minnesota has Kevin Love and Rick Rubio.

Boston has a disgruntled Rondo and an unmotivated rest of the team. 

[PosImpos]

Well, let's think about how they got there.

They assembled a boat-ton of draft picks, usually pretty high ones.  They hit and missed, mostly missed, and looked stupid doing things like overloading at certain positions, PG for a while, SFs for a while.

They use cap space to simply absorb talent from Miami.

They hired a rookie, idiot head coach for a couple of years when they were pretty much hopeless anyway

Their players start to develop, Love becomes allstar material, Rubio comes over, and they hire the best coach out there to bring it all together and make sense of it all.

and then, PRESTO, they're a decent team, still with room to grow.

Danny followed a similar path selling off Toine the first time and getting in on other deals to acquire picks, but then cashed out for Ray and KG.  Will Minny do the same?

Well, it shows you that rebuilding through the draft is the way to go . . . even if you're dumb, if you get enough high picks eventually you'll get enough hits that you'll end up with something good.

Eh, for every OKC, maybe Minny, Portland for a minute (before injuries robbed them) ther are just as many Milwaukee's, Charlotte's, Clippers (until now-after what, 30+ years?).

Rebuilding through the draft is not any more surefire than through proper use of cap space (whether that means trades or outright FA signings).

Show me a team that has built a title contender without using high draft picks to get there.


Look, it's not all about drafting.  Most contenders have to make some smart trades, get some good free agents, and hire the right coach to really become elite.  But it's necessary to get at least one major piece through the draft, or trading a high draft pick.

Detroit, circa 2004.

Edit:  I'd probably throw both the Lakers' most recent runs into this category as well.  Kobe wasn't really their pick.  Everyone else (except Bynum-can't remember what pick he was) of substance was aquired through trade or FA.

So, the one team in the last 40 years that's done it without a highly drafted superstar, and the Lakers, who poached a superstar free agent from the team that drafted them.

We're extremely unlikely to duplicate teh success of either.

Any other examples?

Seattle 1979

Sikma was the 8th pick, Brown was the 6th pick, and they had a couple of other high draft picks that were from other teams as well.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I meant the non-superstar part. Championship team without a superstar (like 2004 Pistons).

Not that it wasn't built with high picks.

Well, not having superstars makes it relevant, but for the purpose of this discussion it's important to note that the team was still built with some high draft picks.

Point being, you can't rebuild into a true contender without tanking for at least a year or two!  Unless you're the Lakers.

[PosImpos]

Yeah, that's it.  Tank for six straight years until you finally get to a place where you have an outside shot at making the playoffs.  That's definitely the way to go.

No, tank for however long it takes to assemble some highly valuable young assets, and perhaps a young franchise star.  Then you use those assets to put together a competitive team, along with free agency and whatever else is at your disposal. 

You need that foundation first, though, and the foundation is always built with high draft picks.  That means being bad for a couple years, at least.

[Kane3387]

Andrew Bynum was the tenth overall pick. The Lakers did miss the playoffs and used their lottery pick on him.

[PosImpos]

Andrew Bynum was the tenth overall pick. The Lakers did miss the playoffs and used their lottery pick on him.

That's true, although they might have won the 2009 title without him.  He was definitely essential for 2010, though.

In any case, it's just further evidence.

[Celtics18]

Yeah, that's it.  Tank for six straight years until you finally get to a place where you have an outside shot at making the playoffs.  That's definitely the way to go.

No, tank for however long it takes to assemble some highly valuable young assets, and perhaps a young franchise star.  Then you use those assets to put together a competitive team, along with free agency and whatever else is at your disposal. 

You need that foundation first, though, and the foundation is always built with high draft picks.  That means being bad for a couple years, at least.

The Timberwolves are an exciting, talented young team, but I wouldn't use their method of team building as a model for how to build a champion.

No NBA champion in at least the last 15 years has built their championship squad by missing the playoffs for 6 straight seasons to build up assets.  Of course, you need assets and when you do get into decent draft position, you need to be a combination of lucky and good to find the right talent. 

By your preferred method, the Kings, the Pistons, the Wizards, the Nets, and the Bobcats should all be knocking on the door by now.