Flashback....Rondo vs Pierce

[ScoobyDoo]

Yeah CelticsFanNC, agreed re Wilcox as an example of a mediocre player who nonetheless can get up and down the court with Rondo. That's part of the solution - getting Rondo players who can get up and down the court with him. The other part is getting him offensive closers at the ends of games.

Here's the thing, distilled, IMHO:

2007/8, 8/9, 9/10, and even 2010/2011: This team was very dominant when healthy and we relied, largely, on:
1. The scoring of Pierce and Ray, particularly down the stretch
2. The defense of KG and Perkins or our other big guys
3. Rondo's play making

Rondo is just as dominant now as then, if not moreso. The main problems I see this year are simply we need another big man to pair with KG in addition to O'Neal and that Pierce and Ray just simply aren't bringing it as consistently as they once did.

Rondo's job isn't to shoot jumps shots all night. It's to get people who ideally can knock down shots, open looks all night. Would it help if he were a better jump shooter? Yes.

But should we depend on him to make all the plays, make all the drives to the basket and shoot all the jump shots too?

Again, not a knock on Pierce or Ray. Ray can barely get by his man on the dribble anymore and Pierce slashes to the rim at a rate of about half of what he used to do.

So there it is.

Pierce and Ray's dominant offense used to hide Rondo's lack of jump shooting ability. Rondo's play making hid their weaknesses. It allowed Pierce to make less turnovers and allowed Ray to get the ball when needed to make his shots...

It's a team game.

You are also dead on the money on two other points:

1. Roadrunner in quicksand is a great analogy - and it's probably where a lot of his frustration comes from.

2. A defensive rebounder and two scorers to run with him and who can get their own shot in the half court, like a young Ray and a young Pierce - and you are off to the races, big time, with Rondo at the point.

I'll take it a step further and it's why I am such a big fan of Danny Ainge. He's set us up with two great draft picks and cap space this off season.

If Howard makes it to free agency and we landed him, I think you could win the east and possibly a ring with the following team next year. At least be in serious, serious contention.

Howard / Aaron Gray or similar / Stiemsma
JuJuan Johnson / Brandon Bass
Jeff Green / Pietrus
Free agent off guard / someone
Rondo / Bradley / Moore

1. Howard and Johnson are perfect compliments to each other.

2. Both Green and Johnson, as well as Howard can fly up the court with Rondo.

3. Howard and hopefully your off guard signing could be your half court guys.

If you put Pierce in that mix, with KG and Ray resigned cheap - forget about it.

Point is I think with one key free agent and Rondo, plus our young guys currently in place - you are around the corner from immediate contention again, with Rondo as part of that.

But you can't count on Rondo to be your jump shooter and offensive closer.

Get him horses and on most games you probably wont' have to worry about closing because the game will be in the bag by the fourth quarter on most nights anyway - like ti was when KG, Pierce and Ray first got here.      
 

[CelticsFanNC]

Yeah CelticsFanNC, agreed re Wilcox as an example of a mediocre player who nonetheless can get up and down the court with Rondo. That's part of the solution - getting Rondo players who can get up and down the court with him. The other part is getting him offensive closers at the ends of games.

Here's the thing, distilled, IMHO:

2007/8, 8/9, 9/10, and even 2010/2011: This team was very dominant when healthy and we relied, largely, on:
1. The scoring of Pierce and Ray, particularly down the stretch
2. The defense of KG and Perkins or our other big guys
3. Rondo's play making

Rondo is just as dominant now as then, if not moreso. The main problems I see this year are simply we need another big man to pair with KG in addition to O'Neal and that Pierce and Ray just simply aren't bringing it as consistently as they once did.

Rondo's job isn't to shoot jumps shots all night. It's to get people who ideally can knock down shots, open looks all night. Would it help if he were a better jump shooter? Yes.

But should we depend on him to make all the plays, make all the drives to the basket and shoot all the jump shots too?

Again, not a knock on Pierce or Ray. Ray can barely get by his man on the dribble anymore and Pierce slashes to the rim at a rate of about half of what he used to do.

So there it is.

Pierce and Ray's dominant offense used to hide Rondo's lack of jump shooting ability. Rondo's play making hid their weaknesses. It allowed Pierce to make less turnovers and allowed Ray to get the ball when needed to make his shots...

It's a team game.

You are also dead on the money on two other points:

1. Roadrunner in quicksand is a great analogy - and it's probably where a lot of his frustration comes from.

2. A defensive rebounder and two scorers to run with him and who can get their own shot in the half court, like a young Ray and a young Pierce - and you are off to the races, big time, with Rondo at the point.

I'll take it a step further and it's why I am such a big fan of Danny Ainge. He's set us up with two great draft picks and cap space this off season.

If Howard makes it to free agency and we landed him, I think you could win the east and possibly a ring with the following team next year. At least be in serious, serious contention.

Howard / Aaron Gray or similar / Stiemsma
JuJuan Johnson / Brandon Bass
Jeff Green / Pietrus
Free agent off guard / someone
Rondo / Bradley / Moore

1. Howard and Johnson are perfect compliments to each other.

2. Both Green and Johnson, as well as Howard can fly up the court with Rondo.

3. Howard and hopefully your off guard signing could be your half court guys.

If you put Pierce in that mix, with KG and Ray resigned cheap - forget about it.

Point is I think with one key free agent and Rondo, plus our young guys currently in place - you are around the corner from immediate contention again, with Rondo as part of that.

But you can't count on Rondo to be your jump shooter and offensive closer.

Get him horses and on most games you probably wont' have to worry about closing because the game will be in the bag by the fourth quarter on most nights anyway - like ti was when KG, Pierce and Ray first got here.      
 

  Great post.  

  You said everything I wanted to say a whole lot better then I  could   Bravo!!

  Rondo doesn't need to be the center piece, but he can be a very big and valuable piece going forward.


  Losing Green this season was a big blow but maybe he can be a factor for the C's next season.

  Also agree that our biggest problem is Ray and Paul cannot score for us as consistently as they used to, especially in the 4th quarter.  Not their fault just a fact of life.

 I also have more confidence in Rondo's jumper then most I guess.  Or maybe don't think it is as important as most.  This season he is hitting his fair share and has looked really improved in recent games.  I think we all hope it is a sign he has improved rather then a hot streak.

  Maybe we can get lucky in the lottery??/  j/k.
  

[BballTim]

Rondo passing to a trailing player for a dunk when he has an uncontested lay up isn't something that I think anyone should really worry about.

So far I have yet to see him do it in a situation where it could or has cost us points.

We shouldn't worry about it because it defies your theory that he doesn't pad his numbers? He pads his numbers in more ways than that, but that is the glaring example. He will never be an elite scorer, so he attempts to lead the league in APG. I have no real problem with it considering how poor of a shooter he is, but to say he doesn't purposely try to get assists is simply a lie.

  If you have any evidence whatsoever that he consciously tries to lead the league in assists I'd love to see it. I think it's all your imagination. He's smart enough to know that most fans value scoring over assists, and he's clearly capable of scoring more points than he does.

[Fafnir]

I think last year when he was going crazy with assists early on he started to overpass. But that ended once his foot injury started bothering him.

[ScoobyDoo]

Yeah, CelticsFanNC, I think Rondo absolutely can be part of your 1/2 punch on championship caliber team. Stockton / Malone, etc...

Look, Rondo isn't a great shooter, but he knows how to score. You need guys who can "shoot" it down the stretch consistently, that's all.

I also agree that Rondo isn't as bad a shooter as everyone claims. I would tell him to shoot the three from the top when anyone gives him space. I believe he could hit 4 of 10 when he's open like that. But more importantly, guys would have to come up and crowd him...

If you put Howard with Rondo and our current young crop - you are 1-2 little moves away from rings again. But it doesn't have to be just Howard - he would just make it easier. You can build with other players.

For example - Hibbert and JJJ would be a decent combo ( think of JJJ with another 15-20 pounds on him...) You'd then need a major stud scorer at either the SF or SG spot...

I also like Javale McGee and think that in the right winning system, like in Boston, he might "grow up" very nicely.

How'd you like to see Mcgee, JJJ, Jeff Green and let's say Eric Gordon on the break with the Rondo?

   

[ScoobyDoo]

GreenEnvy - good points re Rondo's Matador defense.

That is a real issue. Rondo gets very lazy on D sometimes and it makes me nuts. There was one play late in the Chicago game on an out of bounds play where I think Lucas hit a three and the reason was that even though Rondo wasn't picked off by a screen, he simply made no effort to get around a bunch of players. He walked...

Rondo could immeasurably raise his game by doing two things:

1. Stop being so cute with the ball and use all that considerable talent, intelligence and gifts in basketball to execute the solid, simple pass all of the time.

2. Stop leaving your feet in a heap of players hoping to find someone to pass it to.

3. Play simple, aggressive position defense all the time.

He would become so much more efficient.

I have no issue whatsoever with him handing guys the ball on the break when he could take the layup for himself.

The point guard's job is to reward everyone on the floor with shots in good position.

if someone is running with him, he should give it to them every time instead of taking it himself, even if that guy is Avery Bradley or some other guard. Breeds more running... 

[BballTim]

GreenEnvy - good points re Rondo's Matador defense.

That is a real issue. Rondo gets very lazy on D sometimes and it makes me nuts. There was one play late in the Chicago game on an out of bounds play where I think Lucas hit a three and the reason was that even though Rondo wasn't picked off by a screen, he simply made no effort to get around a bunch of players. He walked...

  James hit a three late in the Chicago game, but we were in a zone at the time, if there were a bunch of players between Rondo and James he might not have been the primary defender. I didn't see much of the Raptors game (where he looked bad), but aside from that he's been back for 7 games and the starting point guards for the opposing teams are a combined 23-69 from the field with 23 assists and 18 turnovers. Three made baskets a game, 3 assists a game, a 33% fg% and a 1.3/1 assist/turnover ratio and people are slamming his defense. The more things change, the more they stay the same. People can watch him shut out an opposing point guard for a quarter and a half and all they notice is the single basket he gives up in that half.

[Eja117]

Rondo passing to a trailing player for a dunk when he has an uncontested lay up isn't something that I think anyone should really worry about.

So far I have yet to see him do it in a situation where it could or has cost us points.

agreed completely

[letsgoblue86]

Yeah, CelticsFanNC, I think Rondo absolutely can be part of your 1/2 punch on championship caliber team. Stockton / Malone, etc...

Look, Rondo isn't a great shooter, but he knows how to score. You need guys who can "shoot" it down the stretch consistently, that's all.

I also agree that Rondo isn't as bad a shooter as everyone claims. I would tell him to shoot the three from the top when anyone gives him space. I believe he could hit 4 of 10 when he's open like that. But more importantly, guys would have to come up and crowd him...

If you put Howard with Rondo and our current young crop - you are 1-2 little moves away from rings again. But it doesn't have to be just Howard - he would just make it easier. You can build with other players.

For example - Hibbert and JJJ would be a decent combo ( think of JJJ with another 15-20 pounds on him...) You'd then need a major stud scorer at either the SF or SG spot...

I also like Javale McGee and think that in the right winning system, like in Boston, he might "grow up" very nicely.

How'd you like to see Mcgee, JJJ, Jeff Green and let's say Eric Gordon on the break with the Rondo?


   

That sounds dreamy hahaha, although I'd rather have Hibbert than McGee.

[OmarSekou]

I think the Rondo and Pierce analogy is a good what except for two things - Rondo has always played for a contender, and he's been in the shadow of NBA legends. The expectations for the team are higher, so the criticism for Rondo is greater. They look at the talent around him as though they were still playing near their prime and isolate him and the reason for failure.

Pierce was always the lone bright spot. Even when people were frustrated with the team, they didn't blame Pierce. It was never..."we could win a championship if Pierce did this..." People blame Rondo. Add to that his unconventional style of play and you have people actually rooting against him. If he does well it's somehow a slap in the face to how they think basketball should be played.

All I'll say is Jameer Nelson is the guy I think of whenever I read posts about the player Rondo should be (a better shooter, less creative, more consistent). Rondo has the potential to be a Celtic legend. I could watch that guy all day.

[ScoobyDoo]

I see your point BBallTim about nitpicking Rondo. But I rewound the play 6 or 7 times and his player or not, Rondo was the closest guy and he made absolutely zero effort to rush the shooter.

he was looking directly at him and walking slowly around the group of players directly towards James or whatever guard took the shot. It clearly looked like his man and if not, two quick steps around the pick and he would have been in James' grill.

I don't call that nitpicking - I think Rondo has greatness in him. And the greatest ones don't take plays off, ever.

My larger point was that Rondo tends to get lazy on D and it is very detrimental to the team when he does. His matador D is one example of this and then this play was another similar play. What bothered me the most was after the shot went in, he looked for the ball out for bounds and flew down the court. His effort sorely lacked on the D, but not on the O...

Two things I think are keeping Rondo from being "the best" point in the league.

1. fairly regular laziness on D
2. Trying to make the fancy pass too often.
3. His shooting needs to improve of course, but he's proven to me he definitely knows how to score.

And in general I'm more concerned about his ability to score, than how well he shoots. His shooting ability has slowly improved over the years and I think it will continue to.   

[BballTim]

I see your point BBallTim about nitpicking Rondo. But I rewound the play 6 or 7 times and his player or not, Rondo was the closest guy and he made absolutely zero effort to rush the shooter.

he was looking directly at him and walking slowly around the group of players directly towards James or whatever guard took the shot. It clearly looked like his man and if not, two quick steps around the pick and he would have been in James' grill.

I don't call that nitpicking

  It's not nitpicking because you found a play where Rondo may have been at fault defensively. That happens to every player. It's nitpicking because you can watch a game where Rondo plays good defense on most possessions and zero in on the few that he doesn't and claim that those few plays are indicative of how he plays defense. People who complain about Rondo's defense watch him play looking for mistakes and notice almost every one. There's no player in the history of the league that would look good under that kind of scrutiny.

My larger point was that Rondo tends to get lazy on D and it is very detrimental to the team when he does. His matador D is one example of this and then this play was another similar play. What bothered me the most was after the shot went in, he looked for the ball out for bounds and flew down the court. His effort sorely lacked on the D, but not on the O.. 

  He doesn't play matador D. Watch him defend, most of the time the opposing point guard either give up the ball or calls for one of the bigs to come outside the three point line and set a pick so he can get freed up to do something. Matador defense is when you just let your man blow by you, he has no need to call for a pick. In the same vein as my last response, though, watch how often he actually gets beat and start watching other games for players that get beat less often, or watch for games where Rondo gets beat off the dribble more often than he beats his opponent.

[CelticsFanNC]

  Bradley is great at pressuring the ball but he gives up more lay ups to opposing PG's per minute then Rondo does.

  Rondo does gamble too much and more then he used to.  I think that is in part because he knows it is one of the few ways he can get into the open court where he thrives.   He didn't do it as much when the guys behind him created more turnovers and got some rebounds.

  I don't know if that is the reason, obviously but I do believe it plays a roll.  I think a whole lot of his inconsistency is due to him playing the bulk of his minutes with guys who prefer to play in the half court and don't get out in front of him on the break. 

 

[chambers]

Great post. TP.

The only people thinking that Rondo is going to be traded are the people who want him traded.
Thankfully that's not Danny or Doc.

He's only being moved for another All Star caliber player and that says something about how much they value him.
The kid still hasn't reached his ceiling and he's got a ways to go. I think the next few years without the old guys will be good for his development as he still hasn't reached his prime.
I'm just hoping we have enough pieces to help him out once he has reached his prime.
The 'blow it up' method has its advantages, but it would also mean we lose the opportunity to win another ring with Rondo as the main piece. I think the only way we win another ring with Rondo is if we re tool ASAP.

If we do blow it up, use Rondo to get high picks to build with and let Rondo flourish else where.

[chambers]

I think last year when he was going crazy with assists early on he started to overpass. But that ended once his foot injury started bothering him.

re Green Envy's earlier quote about passing behind him to pad his stats.
Have you ever thought he does this to build the confidence of a player like Wilcox who has issues with self esteem and thrives of positive production and 'good jobs' from his team mates?

Rondo scores the ball plenty of times in the open court or in situations as the ones you're talking about.

In fact I bet 100% he passed it back because it was Wilcox and he wants to get him involved in the game and get his swagger going.
How can you overlook such an obvious reason?
I guess it's because it's completely opposite to reason you wanted it to be?